Nytimes: "it's Official: Mormon Founder Had Up To 40 Wives"

[Scott Lloyd]

No I mean missionaries whose primary role is to answer investigators questions about our Church.  And whether it is right or wrong, it has always seemed that when the general public is asked what they know about our Church, polygamy is usually the first thing they mention.

Is that really the "primary role" of missionaries? I thought it was to invite all to come unto Christ and to be perfected in Him, to preach repentance and baptism for the remission of sins by one having authority.

 

And according to one of the reported anecdotes here, the missionary guide did answer the question. You seem to think she should have gone on and on about it, at the expense of others in the tour who, likely as not, already knew President Young practiced plural marriage and who came there to see and learn about one of his homes.

 

Edited to add:

 

For more on the "primary role" of missionaries see here.

 

You are called to represent Jesus Christ in helping people become clean from their sins. You do this by inviting them to come unto Jesus Christ and become converted to His restored gospel. To come to the Savior they must have faith in Him unto repentance—making the necessary changes to bring their life into agreement with His teachings. You can help people develop such faith by teaching them the restored gospel by the Spirit and inviting them to commit to live according to its teachings. Keeping this commitment prepares them for the covenant of baptism and confirmation and the precious gift of the Holy Ghost. They are to put off the “natural man” and become a Saint “through the atonement of Christ the Lord” (Mosiah 3:19).

 

Edited November 13, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Alan]

I am so looking forward to the day when we all gather in assemblies with prophets and apostles, and we see Joseph with his train of wives, all 34 (+ posthumous sealings) sitting together in a family group.  And the Savior with his wives.  And our Heavenly Father with all our Heavenly Mothers.

 

And all those who find polygamy distasteful here will have no choice but to acknowledge the rightfulness of the practice there.

 

 

You're gonna be very disappointed my friend. Very disappointed indeed!

 

[sdc999]

You mean missionaries who are called to teach investigators the fundamental principles and ordinances of the gospel and invite and encourage them to go to God in prayer and seek a spiritual witness as opposed to giving definitive expositions of history?

Wouldn't it be great if our legal system worked this way? After opening statements, a spiritual witness by the jury to the guilt or innocence determined the eternity of the accused.

[rodheadlee]

No I mean missionaries whose primary role is to answer investigators questions about our Church.  And whether it is right or wrong, it has always seemed that when the general public is asked what they know about our Church, polygamy is usually the first thing they mention.

Yeah, this how we confirmed polygamy within the Church. It was the only thing we knew about the Church before we saw the exhibit at the World's Fair in Spokane, WA

I watched the movie at the Fair and I was stunned to find out that Christ visited the Americas and that the Mormon Church was actually the Church of Jesus Christ. The Spirit bore witness to me the truth of these things as I watched but it would be another 8 years before I was ready to repent and join the Church.

[Scott Lloyd]

Wouldn't it be great if our legal system worked this way? After opening statements, a spiritual witness by the jury to the guilt or innocence determined the eternity of the accused.

I will here adapt a post I made on another thread:

 

There is an enormous difference between earthly institutions such as the American judicial system and the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself and led by Him through revelation to prophets and apostles.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yeah, this how we confirmed polygamy within the Church. It was the only thing we knew about the Church before we saw the exhibit at the World's Fair in Spokane, WA

I watched the movie at the Fair and I was stunned to find out that Christ visited the Americas and that the Mormon Church was actually the Church of Jesus Christ. The Spirit bore witness to me the truth of these things as I watched but it would be another 8 years before I was ready to repent and join the Church.

Scoundrels!

 

They should have spent the entire presentation time with a definitive exposition on Mormon polygamy, since that was what you asked about when you came there.

[ERayR]

Those volunteer guides were all missionaries.  You know, the same missionaries that teach investigators.

 

You mean those 18 -19 year old missionaries with doctorates in Mormon History?

Edited November 13, 2014 by ERayR

[rockpond]

I am so looking forward to the day when we all gather in assemblies with prophets and apostles, and we see Joseph with his train of wives, all 34 (+ posthumous sealings) sitting together in a family group.  And the Savior with his wives.  And our Heavenly Father with all our Heavenly Mothers.

 

And all those who find polygamy distasteful here will have no choice but to acknowledge the rightfulness of the practice there.

 

 

Just curious... have you shared that thought with your wife?

[teddyaware]

You're gonna be very disappointed my friend. Very disappointed indeed!

 

 

I ask the following questions most respectfully: Without asking you do go into a long, drawn-out  explanation, what would you say is the number one piece of evidence that supports your belief Joseph Smith was not a polygamist? 

 

Considering the fact that the LDS Church officially acknowledges Joseph Smith was indeed a polygamist, it seems you're really swimming steeply upstream with this belief. It also seems to me that in order to believe Joseph Smith was not a polygamist it's also necessary to believe the LDS Church is at least partially in a state of apostasy. Do you believe the Church is at least in a partial state of apostasy?? 

[Analytics]

As a non-Mormon, I have to say that folks have known this for ages.  Did anyone ever not know that Smith had many wives?  

 

One person who didn't know it was E.M. Webb.

 

In May 1845 (about a year after Joseph Smith's murder), E.M. Webb wrote an editorial to the Kalamazoo Gazette which was then republished in The Times and Seasons in Nauvoo. In it, he said:

 

 

The Latter Day Saints are charged by their enemies with the blackest crimes. Treason, murder, theft, polygamy, and adultery, are among the many crimes laid to their charge....Mr. Rigdon's spiritual wife system was never known till it was hatched by J. C. Bennett who was cut off from the church for seduction. As to the charge of polygamy, I will quote from the Doctrine and Covenants which is the subscribed faith of the church and is strictly enforced. Article on marriage, sec. 109. par. 4. 'Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have but one wife and one woman but one husband; except in case of death when either is at liberty to marry again.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Analytics

[JLHPROF]

Just curious... have you shared that thought with your wife?

 

Yes.  She agrees.  We study together and have a testimony that plural marriage came from God by revelation.

Doesn't mean she (or I) would look forward to the difficulties of living it.  Just means we know it came from God.

[omni]

Well, anyone who expects a definitive exposition of history from a volunteer guide at a tourist site deserves what he/she gets.

A tour of BY's house without the mention of polygamy is akin to documentary on Clinton's presidency and leaving out the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Sure everyone knows about it, but it looks like you're trying to hide the big elephant in the corner.

[omni]

You mean those 18 -19 year old missionaries with doctorates in Mormon History?

 

The tour guides need a doctorate in history in order to mention BY's polygamy?  Take the tour yourself, the sister missionaries are clearly going off a script (more or less).  Why not make a simple addition to said script and talk about what many who take the tour want to hear? 

[Brian 2.0]

You mean those 18 -19 year old missionaries with doctorates in Mormon History?

 

Does anyone know if the missionaries are reading these essays?  Because it should be required reading for missionaries and I'd seem foolish if the church wasn't instructing the Mission Presidents to have their missionaries read the essays to be better informed on the issues that may, and often do, arise.

[JLHPROF]

You mean missionaries who are called to teach investigators the fundamental principles and ordinances of the gospel and invite and encourage them to go to God in prayer and seek a spiritual witness as opposed to giving definitive expositions of history?

 

Scoundrels!

 

They should have spent the entire presentation time with a definitive exposition on Mormon polygamy, since that was what you asked about when you came there.

 

Well, anyone who expects a definitive exposition of history from a volunteer guide at a tourist site deserves what he/she gets.

 

You really don't see how silly your responses are do you?  To expect tour guides in the home of the most famous polygamist in history who  is more famous for his polygamy than any other accomplishment, to expect them not to mention it is ridiculous.

I mean, let's tour the Alamo but not talk about the battle.  Let's tour the Whitehouse but not mention the president and first lady. 

 

When asked why Brigham Young had multiple homes, with numerous living areas there should be no hesitancy in owning up to history.  Of course missionaries are there to bring others to Christ.  But a tour of the temple discusses the basic uses of temples.  A tour of the holy land is going to focus on the life of Christ.  Why should a tour of Brigham Young's home leave out the most well known part of his home life?

Nobody is asking for a sermon on plural marriage from these guides/missionaries.  Just enough openness to include the fact that the home was populated by many wives, not one.

 

It's completely ridiculous.

[JLHPROF]

Does anyone know if the missionaries are reading these essays?  Because it should be required reading for missionaries and I'd seem foolish if the church wasn't instructing the Mission Presidents to have their missionaries read the essays to be better informed on the issues that may, and often do, arise.

 

I was never able to serve a mission and so I missed out on my missionary training.

I've always been curious - do missionaries receive any training in how to handle subjects like polygamy, Adam-God, blood atonement, the priesthood ban when they inevitably come up?

Is the training to change the subject?  Are there specific responses?  Not trying to argue anything here...just genuinely wondered if missionaries, bishops, stake presidents etc receive training concerning difficult topics.

[Brian 2.0]

I was never able to serve a mission and so I missed out on my missionary training.

I've always been curious - do missionaries receive any training in how to handle subjects like polygamy, Adam-God, blood atonement, the priesthood ban when they inevitably come up?

Is the training to change the subject?  Are there specific responses?  Not trying to argue anything here...just genuinely wondered if missionaries, bishops, stake presidents etc receive training concerning difficult topics.

 

It's probably changed since I went but in the MTC we did not touch on these subjects at all.

 

In the mission field my Mission President had list of topics like this that he had made up personally that went over the answers and how to handle them (he was a convert himself so he had these questions).  Those materials were completely from his own work and I know some of my other friends is different missions were not getting anything similar so I think it's Mission President dependent.  

 

But like I said... it's a completely wasted opportunity to not have the church instruct it's missionaries to read the new essays.

[CA Steve]

You really don't see how silly your responses are do you?  To expect tour guides in the home of the most famous polygamist in history who  is more famous for his polygamy than any other accomplishment, to expect them not to mention it is ridiculous.

I mean, let's tour the Alamo but not talk about the battle.  Let's tour the Whitehouse but not mention the president and first lady. 

 

When asked why Brigham Young had multiple homes, with numerous living areas there should be no hesitancy in owning up to history.  Of course missionaries are there to bring others to Christ.  But a tour of the temple discusses the basic uses of temples.  A tour of the holy land is going to focus on the life of Christ.  Why should a tour of Brigham Young's home leave out the most well known part of his home life?

Nobody is asking for a sermon on plural marriage from these guides/missionaries.  Just enough openness to include the fact that the home was populated by many wives, not one.

 

It's completely ridiculous.

Given the number of posters who have been informed about polygamy their whole lives, I am surprised that the church has trouble finding missionary tour guide who aren't aware of it also. I mean the information is just out there for anyone to find, shouldn't most of these missionaries already know the answers to these questions?

[ERayR]

Given the number of posters who have been informed about polygamy their whole lives, I am surprised that the church has trouble finding missionary tour guide who aren't aware of it also. I mean the information is just out there for anyone to find, shouldn't most of these missionaries already know the answers to these questions?

 

And where does that leave those members who claim they never heard of it?

[thesometimesaint]

The purpose of the Missionaries is not to give history lessons, or even the personal lives of the followers of Jesus the Christ. But too testify of Christ, and the truthfulness of his Restored Gospel.

[omni]

And where does that leave those members who claim they never heard of it?

 

I've never heard of a member who wasn't aware of BY's polygamy.  I've heard of a few who were unaware of Joseph's polygamy and many who are unaware of the sticky details.

[omni]

The purpose of the Missionaries is not to give history lessons, or even the personal lives of the followers of Jesus the Christ. But too testify of Christ, and the truthfulness of his Restored Gospel.

 

Actually, in the case of the sister missionaries we're talking about their purpose (among others) is to give history lessons.

[Alan]

I ask the following questions most respectfully: Without asking you do go into a long, drawn-out  explanation, what would you say is the number one piece of evidence that supports your belief Joseph Smith was not a polygamist? 

 

Considering the fact that the LDS Church officially acknowledges Joseph Smith was indeed a polygamist, it seems you're really swimming steeply upstream with this belief. It also seems to me that in order to believe Joseph Smith was not a polygamist it's also necessary to believe the LDS Church is at least partially in a state of apostasy. Do you believe the Church is at least in a partial state of apostasy?? 

 

The church is always somewhere on the apostasy scale. Sometimes it's at the lower end, sometimes at the higher. It is never all or nothing, nor is it stationary for very long.

I believe the church leadership was in error when plural marriage was practiced as it was in Utah; when it went from being a sealing for eternity, to a sealing for time and eternity. Subsequent events demonstrate that very clearly. Utah polygamy was a failure and has been the achillies heel in the progress of the church ever since. 

 

Perhaps you don't realise this, but I am not alone in my belief on this issue. Not by a long way. There are a growing number of LDS who are coming round to the fact that Joseph was not involved in polygamy. These are usually people like me who followed the party line on this until they actually examined the evidence themselves, rather than simply rely upon other peoples "research".

Take the story of the angel, the sword, and the threat for example. This was mentioned in the recent church essay. When you trace its provenance you find it is unreliable at best, but is better described as complete and utter nonsense. And yet it is trotted out frequently as a justification for Joseph's involvement.

I have challenged people before to present reliable contemporary evidence of Joseph's involvement and no one has been able to do it. The onus is on the pro camp to prove his involvement, as in my country as well as yours a man is innocent until proven guilty.

[Brian 2.0]

The church is always somewhere on the apostasy scale. Sometimes it's at the lower end, sometimes at the higher. It is never all or nothing, nor is it stationary for very long.

I believe the church leadership was in error when plural marriage was practiced as it was in Utah; when it went from being a sealing for eternity, to a sealing for time and eternity. Subsequent events demonstrate that very clearly. Utah polygamy was a failure and has been the achillies heel in the progress of the church ever since. 

 

Perhaps you don't realise this, but I am not alone in my belief on this issue. Not by a long way. There are a growing number of LDS who are coming round to the fact that Joseph was not involved in polygamy. These are usually people like me who followed the party line on this until they actually examined the evidence themselves, rather than simply rely upon other peoples "research".

Take the story of the angel, the sword, and the threat for example. This was mentioned in the recent church essay. When you trace its provenance you find it is unreliable at best, but is better described as complete and utter nonsense. And yet it is trotted out frequently as a justification for Joseph's involvement.

I have challenged people before to present reliable contemporary evidence of Joseph's involvement and no one has been able to do it. The onus is on the pro camp to prove his involvement, as in my country as well as yours a man is innocent until proven guilty.

 

If new evidence came forth and you came to believe the Joseph did if fact engage in polygamy, would you then think polygamy was acceptable or would you think JS was in error?

 

Does it really matter to you in the end if Joseph did practice polygamy, since you already acknowledge that the succeeding prophets practiced it?  

[Alan]

 

Does it really matter to you in the end if Joseph did practice polygamy, since you already acknowledge that the succeeding prophets practiced it?  

 

Yes it does; because they didn't lie about it.