Free Will ?

[mfbukowski]

One of the point Schopenhauer makes is that a choice between alternatives is always motivated by some impulse which themselves are not really ours to settle on. One key phrasing he uses that characterizes his view is : "Man can indeed do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wants."

Yes.

 

But that is of course debatable.    How would one establish the truth or falsity of that assertion?

 

Wittgenstein, Schopenhauer's "great grandson" philosophically speaking might say "Yeah Pops but what do you really MEAN by that?" while discussing 200 different and conflicting ways to understand that idea.  

[mfbukowski]

But choices are only made when we conceive of them. If they were already conceived for us before we were faced with the choices then they really aren't our choices. Those decisions were made before us, if we presume that God conceived of our choices before we make them.

 

What?

God "conceives" choices for us?   How does that work?  He conceives them and we give birth to them?  Once a choice is "conceived" it will magically come to pass?  Are choices floating around in the Land of Platonic Forms waiting to be given birth?

 

Again- circular.  You are getting farther and farther out there dreaming up ways to sneak God's interference with choice into your presumptions.  Now you are inventing whole metaphysical realms to explain it all.

 

Deeper and deeper the confusion grows....

[pogi]

I did not suggest that those who see the future are the cause of the future.

 

I don't know what any of this means then:

 

If God knows of what you will do before you conceive of doing that thing, then yours was not a choice. it was God's choice, conceived by Him before you had a chance to choose.

 

if God knows my actions before that time comes, then He is the one creating my action, not me.

 

 If we' prefer that God knows our actions before we know of them, then we're not really choosing, we're having choices put upon us by He who conceived of them for us.

[stemelbow]

What?

God "conceives" choices for us?   How does that work?  He conceives them and we give birth to them?  Once a choice is "conceived" it will magically come to pass?  Are choices floating around in the Land of Platonic Forms waiting to be given birth?

No, if God absolutely knows our future, then it is not on us to choose so much as God conceiving of what we will choose. So if I am faced with two options. Option A and option B. Let's say if I choose option A I will start on a path to exaltation. If I choose Option B, I will not, I will start on a path to telestial.

Now let's back up. Those two options came to me, sure, but before they came to me, the decision was already made. God already knew what I would choose and where I would end up. If I am destined for Telestial, then I simply could not choose Option A when faced with the decision. Though I wouldn't know it, I would not really have a choice at all. God had already conceived of what I would do, perhaps before I would even embark on the path of life, before I could possibly know anything about the choice.

 

Again- circular.  You are getting farther and farther out there dreaming up ways to sneak God's interference with choice into your presumptions.  Now you are inventing whole metaphysical realms to explain it all.

 

Deeper and deeper the confusion grows....

Not confused at all. You seem confused about what I'm saying.

As I see it, God doesn't absolutely know our choices before faced with them. The choice is ours.

[stemelbow]

I don't know what any of this means then:

it is presuming that God created absolutely, and is omniscient in the traditional sense of the word. On these propositions, God knows all things before they transpire, suggesting not only that He knows what will transpire, but by conceiving of that which transpires, He is the cause of that which transpires. No others, no matter their attempts to choose can change the course that was set when He conceived of all that would happen.

[Rob Osborn]

God, in order to have free will himself, must make choices. Making choices means that one does not know the absolute future. If they did know the absolute future, then they no longer make choices but rather just do exactly what is already written out. Free will thus demands that the absolute future is not known and not set in stone.

[stemelbow]

God, in order to have free will himself, must make choices. Making choices means that one does not know the absolute future. If they did know the absolute future, then they no longer make choices but rather just do exactly what is already written out. Free will thus demands that the absolute future is not known and not set in stone.

yep

[Calm]

"No, if God absolutely knows our future, then it is not on us to choose so much as God conceiving of what we will choose"

Unless our future is a result of our own eternal uncreated nature. If we ultimately respond to our environment and choose things not because God made us a certain way, but because we have always existed that way, then it is our "choice"even if determined by a fixed attribute within ourselves.

If you are arguing that since God knows our fixed eternal natures and knows how we will react in any situation, that since he is the ultimate creator of that situation given he set up the original parameters through creation...Hmmm...if that is your reasoning I am going to think about that for awhile.

It would be like a man who was given a bunch of preprogrammed cars who then designs a course based on that programming that has the cars ending up in the place he chooses. He did not design the programming but knowing it sufficiently can predict where they would end up in any situation and since he chose the situation/course, their final destination is determined ultimately by him.

Is my analogy basically what you are saying?

This is different than saying if a man's choice is known ahead of time absolutely, it is determined (which is true) and therefore since it is God who knows what that choice is, he is the one who determines it (which is false as there may be another cause such as inherent eternal nature or another being who created and "preprogrammed" the original form of mankind) and leaving it at that....absolute knowledge of something equals absolute control even if the one who knows does not act is not a logical idea on its own. This idea requires the added assumption of God being the First Cause of mankind, creating them without any inherent eternal nature that existed prior to his acting upon them.

Edited November 11, 2014 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

"No, if God absolutely knows our future, then it is not on us to choose so much as God conceiving of what we will choose"

Unless our future is a result of our own eternal uncreated nature. If we ultimately respond to our environment and choose things not because God made us a certain way, but because we have always existed that way, then it is our "choice"even if determined by a fixed attribute within ourselves.

If you are arguing that since God knows our fixed eternal natures and knows how we will react in any situation, that since he is the ultimate creator of that situation given he set up the original parameters through creation...Hmmm...if that is your reasoning I am going to think about that for awhile.

It would be like a man who was given a bunch of preprogrammed cars who then designs a course based on that programming that has the cars ending up in the place he chooses. He did not design the programming but knowing it sufficiently can predict where they would end up in any situation and since he chose the situation/course, their final destination is determined ultimately by him.

Is my analogy basically what you are saying?

This is different than saying if a man's choice is known ahead of time absolutely, it is determined (which is true) and therefore since it is God who knows what that choice is, he is the one who determines it (which is false as there may be another cause such as inherent eternal nature or another being who created and "preprogrammed" the original form of mankind) and leaving it at that....absolute knowledge of something equals absolute control even if the one who knows does not act is not a logical idea on its own. This idea requires the added assumption of God being the First Cause of mankind, creating them without any inherent eternal nature that existed prior to his acting upon them.

That's nicely put and thanks for the response.

I agree fro the most part. I think the question then comes down to, for LDS, what is the nature of our spirits being formed? In what sense are we eternal?

That is to say, are we formed from random intelligences, making us all a little different because we are all different pieces of intelligence? or are the intelligences which make up our spirits uniquely us?

[Freedom]

I think our interpretations of this doctrine is clouded by our limited understanding of time. This apparent conflict only exists if time is linear. We are also oblivious as to just how much control God as of our mortal environment. We are like ants who are completely unaware that our ant hill is a man made contraption in a laboratory where the conditions are carefully controlled. Our free will is limited. 

[Robert F. Smith]

No, if God absolutely knows our future, then it is not on us to choose so much as God conceiving of what we will choose. So if I am faced with two options. Option A and option B. Let's say if I choose option A I will start on a path to exaltation. If I choose Option B, I will not, I will start on a path to telestial.

Now let's back up. Those two options came to me, sure, but before they came to me, the decision was already made. God already knew what I would choose and where I would end up. If I am destined for Telestial, then I simply could not choose Option A when faced with the decision. Though I wouldn't know it, I would not really have a choice at all. God had already conceived of what I would do, perhaps before I would even embark on the path of life, before I could possibly know anything about the choice.

You have excluded the middle term in your logic.  Otherwise, you are correct.

However, your assumptions are correct if, and only if, God has necessary existence and that we do not (we are contingent).  That makes of us purely mechanistic beings, and the universe a complex, predictable mechanism.  That is why Calvinists claim that one's salvation or damnation is predestined.  We could not, therefore, have free will.

 

Not confused at all. You seem confused about what I'm saying.

As I see it, God doesn't absolutely know our choices before faced with them. The choice is ours.

Depends on how well He knows us.  Like any earthly father who knows and can generally predict what his children will do, so God (with far greater knowledge, including knowing our very hearts) can also predict, but with much greater acumen.  There is a tremendous relative difference.  Since you are apparently taking the LDS route in this last comment, you are correct that the choice is ours.

[Silhouette]

You have excluded the middle term in your logic. Otherwise, you are correct.

However, your assumptions are correct if, and only if, God has necessary existence and that we do not (we are contingent). That makes of us purely mechanistic beings, and the universe a complex, predictable mechanism. That is why Calvinists claim that one's salvation or damnation is predestined. We could not, therefore, have free will.

Depends on how well He knows us. Like any earthly father who knows and can generally predict what his children will do, so God (with far greater knowledge, including knowing our very hearts) can also predict, but with much greater acumen. There is a tremendous relative difference. Since you are apparently taking the LDS route in this last comment, you are correct that the choice is ours.

The comparison to an earthly father, and the comments following the reference make very good sense to me, and have given me an "Ah ha" moment about this question. This has sort of bugged me for a long time and I couldn't reconcile it, but you have clarified it for me. Thank you for this insight.

[LOSTONE]

If I don't have free will, what caused me to write and post this question in the first place? Was I being controlled by someone or thing other than myself? Just asking....

[stemelbow]

You have excluded the middle term in your logic.  Otherwise, you are correct.

However, your assumptions are correct if, and only if, God has necessary existence and that we do not (we are contingent).  That makes of us purely mechanistic beings, and the universe a complex, predictable mechanism.  That is why Calvinists claim that one's salvation or damnation is predestined.  We could not, therefore, have free will.

Thanks I agree.  

Depends on how well He knows us.  Like any earthly father who knows and can generally predict what his children will do, so God (with far greater knowledge, including knowing our very hearts) can also predict, but with much greater acumen.  There is a tremendous relative difference.  Since you are apparently taking the LDS route in this last comment, you are correct that the choice is ours.

Certainly you are correct.

[pogi]

How do you suggest the atonement worked/works without a perfect foreknowledge of our actions?  What He experienced in Gethsemane and Golgotha was my exact emotional/physical/spiritual suffering around 2000 years before I even existed in mortality.  Every broken bone, every illness, every headache, every sin and mistake that I will make in the future, He has already experienced and atoned for.    This suggests to me that His foreknowledge is not limited to prediction, but is perfect through the atonement, that He might offer a perfect empathy, comfort, understanding and forgiveness.  

[mfbukowski]

No, if God absolutely knows our future, then it is not on us to choose so much as God conceiving of what we will choose. So if I am faced with two options. Option A and option B. Let's say if I choose option A I will start on a path to exaltation. If I choose Option B, I will not, I will start on a path to telestial.

Now let's back up. Those two options came to me, sure, but before they came to me, the decision was already made. God already knew what I would choose and where I would end up. If I am destined for Telestial, then I simply could not choose Option A when faced with the decision. Though I wouldn't know it, I would not really have a choice at all. God had already conceived of what I would do, perhaps before I would even embark on the path of life, before I could possibly know anything about the choice.

 

Not confused at all. You seem confused about what I'm saying.

As I see it, God doesn't absolutely know our choices before faced with them. The choice is ours.

You have not said anything different than you did in the beginning.  You are not listening, but repeating the same words over and over.

[Ahab]

God, in order to have free will himself, must make choices.

True enough.

Making choices means that one does not know the absolute future.

Not necessarily. If you know your future you know what you will do in the future but you still have not made those choices until you will make them in the future.

If they did know the absolute future, then they no longer make choices but rather just do exactly what is already written out.

No, and I just explained why.

Free will thus demands that the absolute future is not known and not set in stone.

You may not be able to imagine knowing what you will choose to do before you do it, but I can.

[ERayR]

Not necessarily. If you know your future you know what you will do in the future but you still have not made those choices until you will make them in the future.

 

 

 

Free will is not just having choices but is the ability to create your future by your choices.

[Rob Osborn]

True enough.

Not necessarily. If you know your future you know what you will do in the future but you still have not made those choices until you will make them in the future.

No, and I just explained why.

You may not be able to imagine knowing what you will choose to do before you do it, but I can.

Certainly everyone is capable of knowing how the future may go, but it is all based off of choices, some within our control, and some outside of our control. Having an absolute knowledge of how exactly the future "will actually turn out" takes away free will, it takes away power of choice. This is because an absolute knowledge of the future includes "all of the future" in ever single exact detail that ever will happen in the future. Thus, a person viewing this actually never makes any decision based on what he sees before him that enables choice. Thus, he or she is not the author of those events by choice but rather just a puppet to forces outside their control. God doesnt see the future this way- that is impossible. He may be able to see a myriad of outcomes and how they may play out according to peoples choices including his own choice before they play out bu he and us still have to make those choices as they happen or come about. God thus will say- if man chooses this such and such then this such and such will be the result but if he chooses that such and such instead then that will be the result. Then, he has the power to influence us to help us choose the better path but he cannot know exactly which choices we will make before they happen. He can have a high degreee of knowledge based upon our past choices and how well he knows us but he cannot know for sure.

It comes back to the age old question over and over again regarding Lucifer. Did God create him and raise him exactly the way he did because it was already known to him that Lucifer would fall? Well, that would make God evil because God would have to act in such a manner precisely so that he would fail and that no matter what happened, Lucifer would become Satan. Thus we must state that God created Lucifer in the beginning not knowing beforehand that Lucifer would choose evil over good. As Lucifer began to grow and make choices on his own Go dprobably started to suspect that he would turn evil but God let it play out and put measures in place for if he did choose to fall.

I honestly believe there is that moment that happens all the time for all of us when we come across choices to make and we have both good and evil influencing us on some of those choices and that God doesnt actually know precisely how and when we will choose in each exact thing. God uses his forces to persuade men to do good and influence them continually to make good choices. But, it is up to us, on our own, how we will respond and it is not set in stone or known exactly beforehand how it will work out.

[stemelbow]

You have not said anything different than you did in the beginning.  You are not listening, but repeating the same words over and over.

I listened. I just noted that you misunderstood me as you attributed things to me I did not say. It seemed I needed to repeat myself, if we were going to get somewhere. But that opportunity seems to have passed.

[Ahab]

Free will is not just having choices but is the ability to create your future by your choices.

That's true in a sense, but your future is created by the choices you will make, and you will be making only those choices. It's not as if you are going to be making different choices than the choices you will eventually make.

[Ahab]

Rob, you're thinking is wrong on this issue, bro, but you can keep thinking incorrectly if you want to. Your choices would not change even if you knew in advance the choices you will eventually make.

[Robert F. Smith]

If I don't have free will, what caused me to write and post this question in the first place? Was I being controlled by someone or thing other than myself? Just asking....

Those who claim lack of free will would say that you are no more a free actor than a chimpanzee, trout in the stream, or a speck of dust.  All move in completely mechanistic ways set for them by events in motion since the beginning of time.  They would say that you and the chimp need not be aware of your completely mechanistic behavior (the cause & effect sequences) in order for that assertion to be true.

[Robert F. Smith]

Certainly everyone is capable of knowing how the future may go, but it is all based off of choices, some within our control, and some outside of our control. Having an absolute knowledge of how exactly the future "will actually turn out" takes away free will, it takes away power of choice. This is because an absolute knowledge of the future includes "all of the future" in ever single exact detail that ever will happen in the future. Thus, a person viewing this actually never makes any decision based on what he sees before him that enables choice. Thus, he or she is not the author of those events by choice but rather just a puppet to forces outside their control. God doesnt see the future this way- that is impossible. He may be able to see a myriad of outcomes and how they may play out according to peoples choices including his own choice before they play out bu he and us still have to make those choices as they happen or come about. God thus will say- if man chooses this such and such then this such and such will be the result but if he chooses that such and such instead then that will be the result. Then, he has the power to influence us to help us choose the better path but he cannot know exactly which choices we will make before they happen. He can have a high degreee of knowledge based upon our past choices and how well he knows us but he cannot know for sure.

It comes back to the age old question over and over again regarding Lucifer. Did God create him and raise him exactly the way he did because it was already known to him that Lucifer would fall? Well, that would make God evil because God would have to act in such a manner precisely so that he would fail and that no matter what happened, Lucifer would become Satan. Thus we must state that God created Lucifer in the beginning not knowing beforehand that Lucifer would choose evil over good. As Lucifer began to grow and make choices on his own Go dprobably started to suspect that he would turn evil but God let it play out and put measures in place for if he did choose to fall.

I honestly believe there is that moment that happens all the time for all of us when we come across choices to make and we have both good and evil influencing us on some of those choices and that God doesnt actually know precisely how and when we will choose in each exact thing. God uses his forces to persuade men to do good and influence them continually to make good choices. But, it is up to us, on our own, how we will respond and it is not set in stone or known exactly beforehand how it will work out.

Does that mean that we did not need Satan and Judas at crucial times?  That God and Jesus did not know beforehand what decision each would make?  Are you sure?

[cksalmon]

Yes, some do equivocate.

 

The late Chuck Smith, pastor of Calvary Chapel (Costa Mesa, Calif), frankly stated that the notion of free will directly opposed the sovereignty of God.  He admitted that he could not explain any logical way out of such a contradiction or paradox, even though he believed in free will.

 

In any discussion of free will, definitions are crucial. Mormons, for example, typically hold a belief in libertarian free will.

 

If I say I believe in free will, but of the compatibilist variety rather than the libertarian one, I'm not equivocating; I'm defining my term. Maybe you think it's bunk, but that's another sort of discussion.

 

I can't speak to your alleged Chuck Smith sentiment, but I consider him a dubious source of theological insight. I would be pleasantly surprised to see him admit that his belief system is incoherent.

 

Quoth Nehor:

That is not entirely true. Many Calvinists believe in free will; they just don't believe your eternal destination can be chosen.

 

"Can be chosen" by whom?

 

Well, right-thinking Calvinists don't believe in libertarian free will (though some folks at my Presbyterian church do   )  and right-thinking Calvinists hold that a Christian actually does choose his/her own eternal destination as a result of God's prior providence.

 

Come to think of it, I can't think of any Christian group who holds that one's eternal destination can't be chosen by someone.

Edited November 13, 2014 by cksalmon