Free Will ?

[Rob Osborn]

Does that mean that we did not need Satan and Judas at crucial times?  That God and Jesus did not know beforehand what decision each would make?  Are you sure?

Let me ask you this- Could we have progressed forward had Lucifer not fallen?

[Rob Osborn]

Rob, you're thinking is wrong on this issue, bro, but you can keep thinking incorrectly if you want to. Your choices would not change even if you knew in advance the choices you will eventually make.

I am pretty sure I am right. I may not be explaining it real well but the future is not set in stone for anyone and that is because of choices people make of which it cannot be known beforehand on what some choices will be made. We may end up with the same result for the most part but its in the "how" that is not exactly known. A simple experiment-

Suppose I go into a store thinking to buy a new toy car and there is a thousand to choose from. And then, I was to do this a thousand days in a row picking each day a new car. Can it be exactly known which car I will choose in advance exactly as I choose it before it happens? What happens if for some odd random reason I go in one day and decide to choose three or none at all and break my own rules? The issue here is that things can influence us and we may have our own patterns for likes and dislikes but there are too many variables that come into play to know absolutely beforehand what will transpire.

[mfbukowski]

If I say I believe in free will, but of the compatibilist variety rather than the libertarian one, I'm not equivocating; I'm defining my term. Maybe you think it's bunk, but that's another sort of discussion.

Exactly. Good to see you, though of course we don't always agree.

Maybe this will help. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

[pogi]

Let me ask you this- Could we have progressed forward had Lucifer not fallen?

 

Does evil exist outside of Satan?  Who tempted Satan to rebel?  If Satan had not rebelled, would another have taken his place?  It's all unrevealed and does not really get to the point.  

 

The point is, Lucifer did fall and that God did know that he would tempt Adam, and that Adam would eat.  God did know that Christ would drink the bitter cup and not shrink.  God did know that Satan would tempt Judas and that Judas would succumb for 40 pieces of silver.  It was all known and foretold by the prophets through God's perfect foreknowledge.  

 

Let me ask you this - Could a perfect trust and faith in God be possible if he did not know?  Is faith simply our best bet?  Does He not really know the end from the beginning to assure us of our safety in following Him?  How could Nephi have faith and trust that Christ really would atone for his sins at some future time?  I have faith that Nephi actually witnessed it as it happened in the future.  Is my faith simply based on speculative predictions of some really smart guy, or things that are true?

Edited November 13, 2014 by pogi

[Rob Osborn]

Does evil exist outside of Satan?  Who tempted Satan to rebel?  If Satan had not rebelled, would another have taken his place?  It's all unrevealed and does not really get to the point.  

 

The point is, Lucifer did fall and that God did know that he would tempt Adam, and that Adam would eat.  God did know that Christ would drink the bitter cup and not shrink.  God did know that Satan would tempt Judas and that Judas would succumb for 40 pieces of silver.  It was all known and foretold by the prophets through God's perfect foreknowledge.  

 

Let me ask you this - Could a perfect trust and faith in God be possible if he did not know?  Is faith simply our best bet?  Does He not really know the end from the beginning to assure us of our safety in following Him?  How could Nephi have faith and trust that Christ really would atone for his sins at some future time?  I have faith that Nephi actually witnessed it as it happened in the future.  Is my faith simply based on speculative predictions of some really smart guy, or things that are true?

Do you think that God knew from the beginning who would make it and who wouldnt?

[Ahab]

I am pretty sure I am right. I may not be explaining it real well but the future is not set in stone for anyone and that is because of choices people make of which it cannot be known beforehand on what some choices will be made. We may end up with the same result for the most part but its in the "how" that is not exactly known. A simple experiment-

Suppose I go into a store thinking to buy a new toy car and there is a thousand to choose from. And then, I was to do this a thousand days in a row picking each day a new car. Can it be exactly known which car I will choose in advance exactly as I choose it before it happens? What happens if for some odd random reason I go in one day and decide to choose three or none at all and break my own rules? The issue here is that things can influence us and we may have our own patterns for likes and dislikes but there are too many variables that come into play to know absolutely beforehand what will transpire.

The thing is, no matter how many possible choices you have to choose from before you make a choice, there is only one choice you will make, every time. There is no way to avoid that. And by seeing the future you would see which choice you would make, as if you already made it, even though you are choosing which choice to make, every time. Even if you have a bazillion gazillion tillion choices to choose from, every time, you'll only be making one choice, every time. It will be your future and it will flow into your present and then become your past, forever and ever. And all the while you will be choosing what you will do, and are doing, and did, every time.

[Rob Osborn]

The thing is, no matter how many possible choices you have to choose from before you make a choice, there is only one choice you will make, every time. There is no way to avoid that. And by seeing the future you would see which choice you would make, as if you already made it, even though you are choosing which choice to make, every time. Even if you have a bazillion gazillion tillion choices to choose from, every time, you'll only be making one choice, every time. It will be your future and it will flow into your present and then become your past, forever and ever. And all the while you will be choosing what you will do, and are doing, and did, every time.

Yes but what i end up doing is not necessarily known beforehand.

[pogi]

Do you think that God knew from the beginning who would make it and who wouldnt?

 

 

What do you mean by "make it"?

 

We all make it to some degree or another.  With only a few exceptions.  I do think God knows what will happen, this is not the same as predestination where it is divinely caused however.  He knows the future (else there could be no seers, and faith would not be in things that are true), but we still chose it (else there would be no judgement). 

[Ahab]

Yes but what i end up doing is not necessarily known beforehand.

Not known to everyone, but known to some, I believe, including our Father.

[Flyonthewall]

I know someone to believes that since God is not confined by time, and the past present and future are all present to Him, He knows the choices we will make because He has already seen us make them.

Which of course is hard for me to wrap my head around. Much easier for me to think that He knows our choices because He has spent an eternity interacting with and observing us.

[Rain]

Keep telling yourself that and you will stay trapped.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/viktor_e_frankl.html

PS: this man was a inmate in the German concentration camps. I think he knows a thing or two about free will. You should read at least his quotes if not his actual books, though I would encourage everyone to read Man's Search for Meaning.

I have read and heard the quote many times and loved it, but this last week I feel I have deeper understanding of it than I did before. I have been reading The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. What Covey talks about in his chapter on being proactive is amazing to me. I've felt that I should read it for some time now but I kept putting it off. I wish I hadn't done that.

I'm finding in it ways I have limited myself. The strange thing is I have preached this for years, but I lacked deep understanding of the concept and an understanding where I was lying to myself. I knew I was choosing things destructive for myself. All these good choices I would put off till "later" because now I was feeling stressed, or I didn't have time or just because I wanted to and I deserve it! I didn't realize I was being reactive rather than proactive.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Rain

[stemelbow]

In any discussion of free will, definitions are crucial. Mormons, for example, typically hold a belief in libertarian free will.

 

If I say I believe in free will, but of the compatibilist variety rather than the libertarian one, I'm not equivocating; I'm defining my term. Maybe you think it's bunk, but that's another sort of discussion.

of course it's bunk. If God created all things absolutely and knew before hand all that would happen before He created, then all choices are what He conceived of. The problem associated with this, of course, is that before creation God was all there was. When He conceived of creation, He must have conceived of evil. Thus all evil is the result of God. Without Him conceiving of evil there would be no evil. And if God created absolutely He could save people at creation, rather than forcing them through life wherein many to most become lost forever, suffering eternally.

[Ahab]

of course it's bunk. If God created all things absolutely and knew before hand all that would happen before He created, then all choices are what He conceived of. The problem associated with this, of course, is that before creation God was all there was. When He conceived of creation, He must have conceived of evil. Thus all evil is the result of God. Without Him conceiving of evil there would be no evil. And if God created absolutely He could save people at creation, rather than forcing them through life wherein many to most become lost forever, suffering eternally.

I see you are still thinking incorrectly.

Someone knowing every choice others will make before they make those choices doesn't equate to that someone making all of those others' choices.

Please stop thinking that. Thank you.

[stemelbow]

I see you are still thinking incorrectly.

Someone knowing every choice others will make before they make those choices doesn't equate to that someone making all of those others' choices.

Please stop thinking that. Thank you.

You've missed my point. I don't think and have not said that "Someone knowing every choice others will make before they make those choices doesn't equate to that someone making all of those others' choices."

My argument applies only if God creates absolutely and knows before creating absolutely the outcome of His creation.

[pogi]

You've missed my point. I don't think and have not said that "Someone knowing every choice others will make before they make those choices doesn't equate to that someone making all of those others' choices."

My argument applies only if God creates absolutely and knows before creating absolutely the outcome of His creation.

 

Right, so do you agree then that as an 'organizer creator' rather than an 'absolute creator,' God can have a perfect foreknowledge without destroying agency and free-will? 

[stemelbow]

Right, so do you agree then that as an 'organizer creator' rather than an 'absolute creator,' God can have a perfect foreknowledge without destroying agency and free-will?

Haven't decided if that's possible. If He had perfect foreknowledge and we are not created absolutely, then there's still a question of what power He wields. Because it seems to me, it would still be that if He knows my decisions before I'm faced with those choices, then I'm destined to be whatever He's already conceived me to be. no amount of trying to change my decisions would change that. If say, I become a son of perdition, He knows it already. He has no reason to respond to me at all. But if He knowing me, knows I may become a son of perdition, but also holds out hope and the possibility that I do not, then He has every reason to respond to me. I think He cares too much about each of us individually to think He has perfect foreknowledge.

I'm still thinking God doesn't have perfect foreknowledge.

[pogi]

Because it seems to me, it would still be that if He knows my decisions before I'm faced with those choices, then I'm destined to be whatever He's already conceived me to be.

 

I believe that decisions determine destiny.  We choose our own destiny.  God's foreknowledge does not interfere.

 

If say, I become a son of perdition, He knows it already. He has no reason to respond to me at all. But if He knowing me, knows I may become a son of perdition, but also holds out hope and the possibility that I do not, then He has every reason to respond to me. I think He cares too much about each of us individually to think He has perfect foreknowledge.

 

Justice could not claim the creature whom God never responded to.  That would be unjust.  Second, God cares for us, not because His foreknowledge is limited, but because He is perfect in love.  His perfect love makes way for a perfect mercy and a perfect justice.  He loves us because He is good, and we need not think that he must be limited to love us each perfectly.

Edited November 13, 2014 by pogi

[Rob Osborn]

God does not have infinite foreknowledge of all future events exactly as they will happen. Suppose you had two Gods and they were playing a game of cards. Then to say that they would both know the exact outcome of each hand played before it happens takes away choice to choose an alternate outcome as it plays out. This the important part about it- in order to be all powerful they would have to have the power of change, the power of choice, and the power to shape different futures according to choice and actions based off those choices. Certainly then, idf they can truly choose between different paths that shape the future then the future is not set in stone.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

What do you mean by "make it"?

 

We all make it to some degree or another.  With only a few exceptions.  I do think God knows what will happen, this is not the same as predestination where it is divinely caused however.  He knows the future (else there could be no seers, and faith would not be in things that are true), but we still chose it (else there would be no judgement).

Do you think that God knew all along that he would create Lucifer and that he would turn into Satan?

[pogi]

God does not have infinite foreknowledge of all future events exactly as they will happen. 

 

That's a pretty definitive statement that the church isn't even willing to make one way or the other.  All we can do is theorize at this point. 

 

You have dodge all of my legitimate arguments based in scripture and doctrine regarding trust, faith, seers, prophecies and the atonement, and their relation to foreknowledge, you neglect to acknowledge the many, many scriptures acknowledging his "foreKNOWLEDGE", with no scriptural hint which limits it.  You have not answered a single question, so I am not going to play your hypothetical card game between 2 Gods.

Edited November 14, 2014 by pogi

[stemelbow]

I believe that decisions determine destiny.  We choose our own destiny.  God's foreknowledge does not interfere.

 

 

Justice could not claim the creature whom God never responded to.  That would be unjust.  Second, God cares for us, not because His foreknowledge is limited, but because He is perfect in love.  His perfect love makes way for a perfect mercy and a perfect justice.  He loves us because He is good, and we need not think that he must be limited to love us each perfectly.

uh...You haven't convinced me. I disagree.

[pogi]

Do you think that God knew all along that he would create Lucifer and that he would turn into Satan?

 

Does it help progress our discussion one way or the other?  Evil is eternal and necessary for good.  God gave us agency to choose it if we so desire.  His foreknowledge does not and cannot guide or effect our choices in any way.  Our destiny is our choice.

Edited November 14, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

uh...You haven't convinced me. I disagree.

 

Ok.  If you don't want to expound I guess that's as far as we can go.  I have offered many questions and arguments with no response from either of you.  I have at least attempted to answer your problems with my theory (though unsatisfactory to you). 

[stemelbow]

Ok.  If you don't want to expound I guess that's as far as we can go.  I have offered many questions and arguments with no response from either of you.  I have at least attempted to answer your problems with my theory (though unsatisfactory to you).

I just figure it's been exhausted. NO offense intended. It's time, in my mind, to agree to disagree. I hear you and disagree.

[pogi]

I just figure it's been exhausted. NO offense intended. It's time, in my mind, to agree to disagree. I hear you and disagree.

 

Sounds good