What Is The Female Role In Exaltation?

[Darren10]

Why is mortality necessary if not to gain a mortal body? What kind of babies are we having exactly if mortal women are the ones giving birth to mortal babies?

 

Count me out of eternity if I have to do nothing but spit out either spiritual or physical babies for the duration. That sounds like hell more than heaven, and not just because of the pain of mortal childbirth. I am a teacher, a leader, a scientist and so much more than the four children I've used my reproductive organs for.

 

When we talk about this immortal vision, the whole of our beings really has to be factored in, or we can't get any idea of what eternal happiness really means.

I very much agree but I'd alter this a bit were it mine. I'd write, "in addition to being a parent of four, I am a teacher, leader, a scientist, etc." Of you admirable accomplishments you listed, there are none greater than your being a mother of four.

[JLHPROF]

Christ took all experiences upon Himself. Everything that He may know us in all things.

 

Then Christ is a very unique creature, being the only male human in existence to contain male and female feelings, experiences, perspective and understanding.

 

I wonder what he thinks of PMS and Childbirth?  My wife says it's a toss up.  I wouldn't have a clue.

 

No, I think you are giving Christ attributes not in keeping with scripture.  Unless of course you are gnostic...

 

"According to Gnostic beliefs, Christ was conceived of as having two aspects: a male half, identified as the son of God, and a female half, called Sophia, who was venerated as the mother of the universe."  - http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/eascfa/dinner_party/place_settings/sophia.php

[watermelongirl]

I very much agree but I'd alter this a bit were it mine. I'd write, "in addition to being a parent of four, I am a teacher, leader, a scientist, etc." Of you admirable accomplishments you listed, there are none greater than your being a mother of four.

 

I love my children very much. They are wonderful and I nurture and care for them with love and will continue to do so throughout their lives. But what makes me ME is not them or the fact that I birthed them. It is those other things I mentioned, along with my faith in the gospel.

 

This is why I find it rather surprising that some in this thread don't want to concede that there's more to eternity than offspring. I honestly don't get it. I want to study and learn and practice genetics, physics and and evolution on a grand scale. I want to teach others the beauty of the universe. I'm sure motherhood will be a part of who I am in eternity, but I'm also sure that the expansiveness of my talents and personality will have manifestation in our eternal roles.

 

And on the subject of prayer... I find it believable that HF can in some way understand pain associated with the female. But as a female, I'd rather talk to another female about it in my prayers. It just makes more sense. My soul cries out to talk to my Mother. People want a deity that is like them (eg black Jesus Christ depictions, veneration of Mary, etc). We have that in Heavenly Mother, who is very real.  I look forward to the day when prayer to her is acceptable.

[Darren10]

Then Christ is a very unique creature, being the only male human in existence to contain male and female feelings, experiences, perspective and understanding.

I wonder what he thinks of PMS and Childbirth? My wife says it's a toss up. I wouldn't have a clue.

No, I think you are giving Christ attributes not in keeping with scripture. Unless of course you are gnostic...

You too have female feelings and understanding. Not as developed as a female perhaps but you do have them. But to express surprise that Christ is unique in and of itself surprises me. Of course He is unique. He was the most unique of any human. Male or female. Why is that surprising to say?

As for PMS, my wife literally expresses a desire for someone to rip it out of her. It literally makes her insane. While I feel for her and understand her the fulness of my feelings and understanding for her are not nearly as developed as hers for I am not her. But isn't Christ in a perfect understanding of her? Does not Christ know exactly what she knows? If anything Christ feels more than her and understands more than her. This is why Christ can and does comfort her, and does so regularly, in her time of need.

And now you're suggesting gnosticism on me? Cone on, you can and should do better. What have I said of scripture you yourself do not know? I am especially curious what I have said regarding Christ taking upon Himself all our experiences so that He may know us and succor us.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Darren10

[Darren10]

I love my children very much. They are wonderful and I nurture and care for them with love and will continue to do so throughout their lives. But what makes me ME is not them or the fact that I birthed them. It is those other things I mentioned, along with my faith in the gospel.

 

This is why I find it rather surprising that some in this thread don't want to concede that there's more to eternity than offspring. I honestly don't get it. I want to study and learn and practice genetics, physics and and evolution on a grand scale. I want to teach others the beauty of the universe. I'm sure motherhood will be a part of who I am in eternity, but I'm also sure that the expansiveness of my talents and personality will have manifestation in our eternal roles.

 

And on the subject of prayer... I find it believable that HF can in some way understand pain associated with the female. But as a female, I'd rather talk to another female about it in my prayers. It just makes more sense. My soul cries out to talk to my Mother. People want a deity that is like them (eg black Jesus Christ depictions, veneration of Mary, etc). We have that in Heavenly Mother, who is very real.  I look forward to the day when prayer to her is acceptable.

I am actually in much agreement with you. My only intent on contending with the semantics of your previous post was to point out that, of course your accomplishments are not limited to your having children. Not now and not eternally. But among all your accomplishments, your having created and raise four children is the greatest of all. I think that's how God our Father views us.

[Tacenda]

I know it's just my opinion but I agree with Brigham Young.

Men and women become Adam's and Eve's. They create worlds for their own spirit children to populate.

And no child was ever born by any other method than we were. I don't believe for one second that spirit children are created any differently than mortal children. Even the unfallen Eve in the garden was able to have children prior to the fall. Immortal bodies still reproduce the old fashioned way.

Somehow, in some way we don't know yet, spending all our time raising families to populate new creations will be enough to make all of us happy.

Those that think they would be unhappy having children for eternity probably won't get the opportunity. Eternal increase is the ultimate blessing of the gospel. No increase is the future of those that reject all or part of the gospel. So Eve didn't have to physically have billions of children just her own few. Then maybe through the law of adoption the rest come.

Yep, spirit babies. The old fashioned way. To populate future creations. Until we move to a higher order of kingdoms, then who knows. That's what I believe, official doctrine or not.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, agree with Brigham Young somewhat, but yeah this sounds more humane to a Mother in heaven. They created a few children and then posterity continued, just as it is in the temple. Edited October 4, 2014 by Tacenda

[watermelongirl]

I am actually in much agreement with you. My only intent on contending with the semantics of your previous post was to point out that, of course your accomplishments are not limited to your having children. Not now and not eternally. But among all your accomplishments, your having created and raise four children is the greatest of all. I think that's how God our Father views us.

 

Well now I still have to disagree. Those women who cannot have children are still as dear to our Parents as I am with my four children. They do not see any of us as somehow  triumphant because we were able to combine sperm and egg. Most of humanity can do that. We're not deficient to Them if we can't biologically manage it.

 

That I choose to raise my children faithfully, now that might please our Parents... but I think venerating the act of motherhood is to put us on a pedestal we don't want or earn.

[Raingirl]

Well now I still have to disagree. Those women who cannot have children are still as dear to our Parents as I am with my four children. They do not see any of us as somehow  triumphant because we were able to combine sperm and egg. Most of humanity can do that. We're not deficient to Them if we can't biologically manage it.

 

That I choose to raise my children faithfully, now that might please our Parents... but I think venerating the act of motherhood is to put us on a pedestal we don't want or earn.

I don't see where anyone said that those women without children in this mortal life are any less dear than those who have had children in this mortal life. That's your spin. You seem so intent on your own viewpoint/agenda that you cannot understand what someone else is saying.

 

Stop the personal insults if you want to stay in the thread.

[Darren10]

Well now I still have to disagree. Those women who cannot have children are still as dear to our Parents as I am with my four children. They do not see any of us as somehow  triumphant because we were able to combine sperm and egg. Most of humanity can do that. We're not deficient to Them if we can't biologically manage it.

 

That I choose to raise my children faithfully, now that might please our Parents... but I think venerating the act of motherhood is to put us on a pedestal we don't want or earn.

Women *who cannot have children* are still great. Were they to be able to have children and have them but do not simply because they cannot is not an impediment to greatness. frankly, I've no idea why this viewpoint is compatible to what I have said. Your having had and raised four children is greater than anything else you've listed. Are they not? Are your contributions to teaching and/or to science greater? If you think so, just say so. Personally, I don't care what accomplishments you have made in this life. Your raising your children is your greatest achievement and will have far more long-term positive effects on society than anything else your have or will achieve.

[saemo]

And on the subject of prayer... I find it believable that HF can in some way understand pain associated with the female. But as a female, I'd rather talk to another female about it in my prayers. It just makes more sense. My soul cries out to talk to my Mother. People want a deity that is like them (eg black Jesus Christ depictions, veneration of Mary, etc). We have that in Heavenly Mother, who is very real. I look forward to the day when prayer to her is acceptable.

Just to clarify, Mary is not venerated as a divine goddess. She is not a goddess. Jesus is depicted in art by people, as their own, both in appearance and culture, but this symbolizes the universality of the Good News, our Salvation, and is not taken literally.

Also, as a Catholic I don't venerate Mary because she's a woman and gets women, whereas God cannot. We, men and women, venerate her because of her faith, her desire to follow the will of God, such as, her response, "be it done unto me according to thy word". For her special role, given to her by God, as the human to bring God into the world. As the Mother of God, the New Eve, the Ark where God dwelt, a type of the Church, an example to follow, and a long list of theological and devotional reasons. None of which, are covered in this thread in any shape or form.

First of all, it is Catholic doctrine that the divine nature: God, has no gender. Second, that God is omniscient, therefore, there is nothing unknown to God. Our joys and sufferings are all known, deeply, and intimately.

Hope,that helps.

Edited October 4, 2014 by saemo

[The Nehor]

I don't believe for a second that Christ can know what that the female experience is, even if he took their pain away.

I believe it completely. He didn't just take the pain; he took all the experiences that make up our pain. He knows what it is like to have a life inside of you, fear for it, watch it die prematurely in tears, and endured all the worries, anxieties, pains, and regrets of motherhood and fatherhood. He even knows what it is like to be so debased that you despise your own child and all the hatred men and women endure. The atonement was complete. That is why the Savior can judge. If you were right a woman could come to the Judgement Bar and claim he has no idea what she went through and be absolutely right.

[mormonnewb]

Joseph Smith also taught we will not be saved without our dead so we do need to expand our concern way beyond our nuclear family (which is a recent development in family dynamics anyway).

 

Is that teaching still operative in our theology today?  Most of what I hear in Church about the hereafter deals with the concept of nuclear families being together forever.  In fact, in EQ, I once asked about what happens to our friends and neighbors.  If they make it to the CK, do we get to see them as well?  No one seemed to have an answer (maybe I should have asked the high priests).

 

Seriously, are there any current teachings on the saints achieving exaltation collectively?

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2010-07-110-we-cannot-be-saved-without-our-dead?lang=eng

 

What is our obligation then? Each one of us—if we pretend to obey the gospel at all—must search out our dead and have these saving ordinances performed for them.

“Many suppose that they are discharging their responsibilities by simply ‘going to the temple.’ But that is not wholly true. We must go to the temple, of course, and often. If we do not as yet have the records of our own dead kindred, then while we search for them, by all means let us help others with theirs.

“But be it understood that if we go to the temple, and not for our own dead, we are performing only a part of our duty, because we are also required to go there specifically to save our own dead relatives and bind the various generations together by the power of the holy priesthood.

“We must disabuse our minds of the idea that merely ‘going to the temple’ discharges our full responsibility, because it does not. That is not enough. …

“God holds each of us responsible for saving our own kindred—specifically our own.” Ensign, May 1976, pp. 15–16.)

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/08/genealogy-and-temple-work-you-cant-have-one-without-the-other?lang=eng

 

Since if we go back far enough, our families will link together, our friends and neighbors are the descendants of our ancestors and thus part of our extended family.  We are all kindred physically.  We become eternal kindred through spiritual ordinances and adoption by Christ.

Edited October 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

I

I believe it completely. He didn't just take the pain; he took all the experiences that make up our pain. He knows what it is like to have a life inside of you, fear for it, watch it die prematurely in tears, and endured all the worries, anxieties, pains, and regrets of motherhood and fatherhood. He even knows what it is like to be so debased that you despise your own child and all the hatred men and women endure. The atonement was complete. That is why the Savior can judge. If you were right a woman could come to the Judgement Bar and claim he has no idea what she went through and be absolutely right.

I wholeheartedly agree. Because He is God, Christ intimately knows all things, and that includes every aspect of the workings of the female spirit, heart and mind. And so we read:

20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it. (2 Nephi 9)

 

and,

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things (including women), the light of truth; (D&C 88)

 

and,

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3)

Edited October 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

I believe it completely. He didn't just take the pain; he took all the experiences that make up our pain. He knows what it is like to have a life inside of you, fear for it, watch it die prematurely in tears, and endured all the worries, anxieties, pains, and regrets of motherhood and fatherhood. He even knows what it is like to be so debased that you despise your own child and all the hatred men and women endure. The atonement was complete. That is why the Savior can judge. If you were right a woman could come to the Judgement Bar and claim he has no idea what she went through and be absolutely right.

 

All right, maybe I overexaggerated what my mother used to tell me when I was young.

I think when we understand the atonement even more completely that we will be eable to understand exactly how this perfect man can understand the experiences of a woman.