What Is The Female Role In Exaltation?

[bluebell]

What do we know about the male role in exaltation that is not connected to Fatherhood?

[JLHPROF]

What do we know about the male role in exaltation that is not connected to Fatherhood?

 

Exactly!  What is Heavenly Father's entire purpose for being, his work and his glory?  The exact same as it is for Heavenly Mother.  To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  Or, to put it another way, to perpetuate the race of the Gods.  It's all they do, it's their "raison d'etre", it's our future job if we qualify.

 

Yep, the very existence of everything is based around family.  Nothing about exaltation falls outside of fatherhood and motherhood.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Interesting.  We're on the second page of comments for a thread entitled "What Is The Female Role In Exaltation?" and so far it's just men talking at each other. 

 

To answer the OP, according to D/C 132 and the temple liturgy established by BY (which, despite changes in tone, remains substantively the same today) only men are exalted.  Women are necessary to men's exaltation because men cannot create children without them.  But they are not themselves exalted.  Women receive a fullness of joy according to the purpose of their creation, which again is to create and nurture children. 

 

That said, the current trend in the church is to strongly emphasize that men and women are equal and play down the dissonance between equality and our reality in which we have a decent understanding of men's eternal role (Father), but next to nothing about women's eternal role (Mother). FWIW, I find the best course forward is to focus on Christ, who supposedly is the role model for all of us regardless of gender. 

Once again women are the victim here. It gets old. I am quite frankly tired of it.

 

Women are indeed exalted. A women cannot be exalted with out a man.

 

And what exactly is a man's eternal role? I am dieing to know.

[JLHPROF]

Who exactly took away from what? I do not recall Heavenly Mother doctrines restored and them taken away. Heavenly Mother is Heavenly Father's equal. If She wills to be prayed to. It'll be done. If She wills for Her Name to be pronounced equal to that of the father's, it'll be done. It's telling to me that these things are not done. Could it be that such is Her will? Why imply sexism?

 

I think a much more likely speculation is that they have chosen no to reveal that it's actually "Heavenly Mothers".

One Heavenly Father and numerous Heavenly Mothers.

 

But even that aside, my Mother told me there is nothing wrong with praying to Heavenly Mother, especially for a woman, because as 100% perfect as Heavenly Father is he is still male.  He has no experience or ever can of being pregnant, giving birth, being a wife etc.  Why shouldn't a woman consult her Heavenly Mother on such items?  Eliza R. Snow would have supported that.

[watermelongirl]

I am fairly confident that, just like men, I will be able to put my intelligence, talents, and skills to work as we go about helping others to gain eternal life. Personally I don't think of it as "motherhood" forever because I think we tend to limit that word as Mormons.  I get to teach, plan, study, construct, supervise and more. Call it eternal motherhood if it makes you happy, but permit others a large-scale view of it.

 

I think there's more to the Heavenly Mother's role and story than we know, in great part because of redaction of the scriptures as scholars have begun to talk about (Margaret Barker, et al). I hope that we will get more acknowledgement and restoration of that lost knowledge in the future.

 

And I do think we should be able to pray to HM, but President Hinckley said not to.

Edited October 3, 2014 by watermelongirl

[Buckeye]

Once again women are the victim here. It gets old. I am quite frankly tired of it.

 

Women are indeed exalted. A women cannot be exalted with out a man.

 

And what exactly is a man's eternal role? I am dieing to know.

 

To be clear, I wasn't defending the church's teachings on exaltation, just setting it out for discussion.  That is the question asked in the OP.  If you think that women are exalted, I would appreciate a source.  My sources are D/C 132 and the temple liturgy.  Those sources teach that men are exalted, meaning they become as God.  Women are not exalted, they only become queens and priestesses to their husbands, not to God, and not to Heavenly Mother.  Thus, women are not exalted, though they are needed for men to become such.  That teaching bothers me greatly.  But I can't simply ignore it.

 

As for what exaltation means for men, I'm sure we have very little knowledge of the whole, but I would argue we have a greater idea of eternal fatherhood than we do regarding eternal motherhood.  From the scriptures and the temple liturgy, it seems clear that Father is engaged in creating worlds, populating them with life, and bringing about happiness for all creations.  For motherhood, all the scriptures teach is that women will bear children.  I (and probably most others) would assume women will do much more than that.  But that is all we know.  It would be nice to have more knowledge.  For that, we'd probably need to have Mother speak to us, and unfortunately as a people we are not willing to speak with Her right now.

 

 

JLHPROF, for what it's worth, I hold to a heretical view that not only do we have multiple mothers in heaven but multiple fathers in heaven (and by multiple I means probably thousands).  I extend the definition of "father" and "mother" to apply to anyone who condescends to the level of another in order to suffer with them and provide example to them so they can have more joy.  The prime example of this is Christ.  He is the best example of fatherhood for me, even though he is not a father in a biological sense.  It's also why I have hope that gay men and women will be fathers and mothers in the eternities, just as they are now.  True fatherhood and motherhood has little to nothing to do with passing on DNA. 

[Nofear]

I think there's more to the Heavenly Mother's role and story than we know...

 

Agreed + more. I think there is a great more about both parents that we don't know. True, it is their work and glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. But, I don't think it is their only work and glory. I think they do plenty of other things and that not all their focus is on just us, their kids. In most LDS conceptions of God, including mine, they have parents and siblings too. There are definitely interactions, purposes, and labors there. And there are very likely things they do which don't involve their children, even as big as a handful as we can be. Currently our spousal relationship is higher priority than our relationship with our children. I do not believe the eternities change that.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Buckeye, I think it would be unfair to women if they don't have the same exaltation as men. I think it'll be equal. I know what's said in the temple and what D&C 132 says, but it just wouldn't be fair to the faithful women.

[mnn727]

Any answer given is mere speculation.

 

My PERSONAL SPECULATION is that they will not be eternal baby makers. 

I personally doubt that 'spirit babies' are made the same way as human babies, the sheer numbers would make it impossible not to mention:

D&C 93: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

[JLHPROF]

Buckeye, I think it would be unfair to women if they don't have the same exaltation as men. I think it'll be equal. I know what's said in the temple and what D&C 132 says, but it just wouldn't be fair to the faithful women.

 

Equal and fair are not synonyms...Still, I think everyone will receive everything they could ever hope for.  Isn't that the whole premise of the old "we go where we are most comfortable" theory?

 

I find it hard to believe there are discontented Gods or Goddesses in the eternities.

It's only when we try to apply our current standards and understanding that we start imagining women getting the "short end of the stick".

Whether Heavenly Mother is 100% exactly equal in everything with Heavenly Father, or whether Heavenly Mother has a completely different role from Heavenly Father and doesn't do the same things he does, or even if it's Heavenly Father presiding over many wives who are Heavenly Mothers, I am 100% sure that they are all absolutely as happy and content as is ever possible.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well it is called the Plan of Happiness for a reason. I know how much I love my earthly mom, I can't wait to spend time and be reunited with my Heavenly Mother. And of course, I can't wait to be reunited with my Heavenly Father and Jesus. I bet exaltation is complicated to learn, but thankfully we have eternity to learn. And you can't do it alone. You need a companion for exaltation.

[teddyaware]

Any answer given is mere speculation.

 

My PERSONAL SPECULATION is that they will not be eternal baby makers. 

I personally doubt that 'spirit babies' are made the same way as human babies, the sheer numbers would make it impossible not to mention:

D&C 93: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Two Questions:

1) Do you believe our sexual organs and reproductive systems will rise with us in the resurrection?

2) If you do believe our sexual organs and reproductive systems will rise with us in the resurrection, do you think they will be functional or will they merely be nonfunctional and sterile "remnants" left over from our time in mortality, much like a woman's ovaries and womb after menopause?

Edited October 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[watermelongirl]

Two Questions:

1) Do you believe our sexual organs and reproductive systems will rise with us in the resurrection?

2) If you do believe our sexual organs and reproductive systems will rise with us in the resurrection, do you think they will be functional or will they merely be nonfunctional and sterile "remnants" left over from our time in mortality, much like a woman's ovaries and womb after menopause

 

Why is mortality necessary if not to gain a mortal body? What kind of babies are we having exactly if mortal women are the ones giving birth to mortal babies?

 

Count me out of eternity if I have to do nothing but spit out either spiritual or physical babies for the duration. That sounds like hell more than heaven, and not just because of the pain of mortal childbirth. I am a teacher, a leader, a scientist and so much more than the four children I've used my reproductive organs for.

 

When we talk about this immortal vision, the whole of our beings really has to be factored in, or we can't get any idea of what eternal happiness really means.

[Buckeye]

Two Questions:

1) Do you believe our sexual organs and reproductive systems will rise with us in the resurrection?

2) If you do believe our sexual organs and reproductive systems will rise with us in the resurrection, do you think they will be functional or will they merely be nonfunctional and sterile "remnants" left over from our time in mortality, much like a woman's ovaries and womb after menopause?

 

I believe the resurrection will clothe my spirit in flesh.  That's it.  I have no idea whether I'll have two arms, 10 fingers, and any other mortal attribute.  Frankly, considering that so many other body types exist which have advantages over our present form (and in particular regarding child birth), I wonder why so many people are dead set on staying in our current form throughout eternity.  Could it be that Joseph saw two human personages in his first vision because that was the most comforting manifestation for him? 

[mormonnewb]

I bet exaltation is complicated to learn, but thankfully we have eternity to learn. And you can't do it alone. You need a companion for exaltation.

This is one of the things that I like best about Mormonism. The idea that I can't get to exaltation all by myself is powerful and is probably responsible for the greater sense of community that I've found among the saints. It is certainly a VAST theological improvement over the mainline Christian view of "every man for himself."

My only concern is our narrow conception of family consisting of a mother and father and the children to whom they are sealed. My concern is that it puts too much stress on the marriage as the ONLY vehicle by which to reach exaltation. On the one hand, it can create a mindset of "me and my four and no more." It doesn't matter if the whole world goes to heck in a handcart, so long as MY family is following the Gospel, we're all set. On the other hand, no matter how much good I do in the world, no matter how many people that I bring to the Gospel, I'm all done for if my spouse loses her testimony. As a result, marriages are sometimes in jeopardy the moment one spouse has a faith crisis.

In total, I think our way produces better results because it removes the idea that it's all about ME. However, perhaps there is a way to view exaltation that will make us our sister's keeper, but doesn't make anyone's exaltation completely dependent upon the "righteousness" of one particular person. Is their any doctrinal wiggle room to expand the concept of "family"?

[Calm]

No one is dependent on someone else's acceptance or refusal of exaltation...though this would appear to mean if a spouse rejects exaltation, one will have a different exaltation accepting spouse in the eternities (for those who say they wouldn't want exaltation without their current spouse, they are IMO ignoring the teaching that eternal marriage is exaltation and someone who is rejecting exaltation is rejecting being married to you and since they don't want to stay with you, why would you want to stay with them even if you could force them too?)

Joseph Smith also taught we will not be saved without our dead so we do need to expand our concern way beyond our nuclear family (which is a recent development in family dynamics anyway).

[teddyaware]

Why is mortality necessary if not to gain a mortal body? What kind of babies are we having exactly if mortal women are the ones giving birth to mortal babies?

 

Count me out of eternity if I have to do nothing but spit out either spiritual or physical babies for the duration. That sounds like hell more than heaven, and not just because of the pain of mortal childbirth. I am a teacher, a leader, a scientist and so much more than the four children I've used my reproductive organs for.

 

When we talk about this immortal vision, the whole of our beings really has to be factored in, or we can't get any idea of what eternal happiness really means.

It really doesn't matter what it "sounds like," What matters is what actually it is.

 

All of this controversy boils down to something very simple: The Lord, whom we are told cannot lie, promises us that the men and women who inherit the fullness of exaltation will fulfill eternally significant gender roles (as per the Family Proclamation) that will constitute "a state of happiness which hath no end" (Moroni 7:7).

 

Latter-day Saints who have faith in God and a testimony that the Book of Mormon and the Standard Works are true will trust in God's wisdom and take Him at His word. They will believe Him when He says eternal marriage and family life will bring a fullness of joy beyond present understanding. I believe him. And in light of the totality of sacred writ, I see no good reason why I shouldn't believe Him. Yes, I believe Him when He promises me that "eternal increase" (D&C 132) will bring me and my eternal companion a fullness of joy. What good reason is there for me, or anyone else, not to believe Him?  

 

Why should fallen mortals, who know exceedingly little about the mysteries of godliness and eternal life, presume procreation in the eternities will be a drudgery and not the everlasting joy the God of Heaven promises us it will be? Just because fallen mortals cannot now imagine how having "a continuation of the seeds forever and ever" (D&C 132) will bring husband and wives a fullness of  joy does not mean that the "continuation of the seeds" won't bring them a fullness of joy. D&C 132 solemnly stipulates that a fullness of joy can only be achieved by means of eternal marriage, eternal families and "eternal increase."

If exalted men and women are raised from the grave with perfected and fully functional sexual organs and reproductive systems, something that seems quite likely in light of what we read in the Standard Works, perhaps all of this will make perfect sense as perspectives change when eternal fathers and mothers are blessed with the fullness of the following list of supernal heavenly blessings:

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. (D&C 132)

 

Of course, if all the above blessings have little appeal for some, God will surely oblige them by relegating them to a lower kingdom of glory.  

Edited October 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

When dealing with issues like this one, it helps to have a good familiarity with the scriptures. Such familiarity helps prevent one from falling off the edge of theological speculation.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. (D&C 88)

Edited October 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[Nofear]

I tend to agree that spirit bodies are not born viviparously. Numbers just don't make sense. That is not necessarily to say that the resurrected womb will never be used. Brigham Young at times suggested Adam and Eve were physically begotten in the "natural" way.

[watermelongirl]

Why

 

It really doesn't matter what it "sounds like," What matters is what actually it is.

 

All of this controversy boils down to something very simple: The Lord, whom we are told cannot lie, promises us that the men and women who inherit the fullness of exaltation will fulfill eternally significant gender roles (as per the Family Proclamation) that will constitute "a state of happiness which hath no end" (Moroni 7:7).
 
Latter-day Saints who have faith in God and a testimony that the Book of Mormon and the Standard Works are true will trust in God's wisdom and take Him at His word. They will believe Him when He says eternal marriage and family life will bring a fullness of joy beyond present understanding. I believe him. And in light of the totality of sacred writ, I see no good reason why I shouldn't believe Him. Yes, I believe Him when He promises me that "eternal increase" (D&C 132) will bring me and my eternal companion a fullness of joy. What good reason is there for me, or anyone else, not to believe Him?  
 
Why should fallen mortals, who know exceedingly little about the mysteries of godliness and eternal life, presume procreation in the eternities will be a drudgery and not the everlasting joy the God of Heaven promises us it will be? Just because fallen mortals cannot now imagine how having "a continuation of the seeds forever and ever" (D&C 132) will bring husband and wives a fullness of  joy does not mean that the "continuation of the seeds" won't bring them a fullness of joy. D&C 132 solemnly stipulates that a fullness of joy can only be achieved by means of eternal marriage, eternal families and "eternal increase."

If exalted men and women are raised from the grave with perfected and fully functional sexual organs and reproductive systems, something that seems quite likely in light of what we read in the Standard Works, perhaps all of this will make perfect sense as perspectives change when eternal fathers and mothers are blessed with the fullness of the following list of supernal heavenly blessings:

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. (D&C 132)

 

Of course, if all the above blessings have little appeal for some, God will surely oblige them by relegating them to a lower kingdom of glory.  

 

My problem with your argument is not that the blessings have little appeal, it is the mortal Mormon propensity to think that the above describes procreating for eternity.

 

There's more to it than that for all of us.

[JLHPROF]

I know it's just my opinion but I agree with Brigham Young.

Men and women become Adam's and Eve's.  They create worlds for their own spirit children to populate.

And no child was ever born by any other method than we were.  I don't believe for one second that spirit children are created any differently than mortal children.  Even the unfallen Eve in the garden was able to have children prior to the fall.  Immortal bodies still reproduce the old fashioned way.

 

Somehow, in some way we don't know yet, spending all our time raising families to populate new creations will be enough to make all of us happy.

Those that think they would be unhappy having children for eternity probably won't get the opportunity.  Eternal increase is the ultimate blessing of the gospel.  No increase is the future of those that reject all or part of the gospel.

 

Yep, spirit babies.  The old fashioned way.  To populate future creations.  Until we move to a higher order of kingdoms, then who knows.  That's what I believe, official doctrine or not.

[Darren10]

I think a much more likely speculation is that they have chosen no to reveal that it's actually "Heavenly Mothers".

One Heavenly Father and numerous Heavenly Mothers.

 

But even that aside, my Mother told me there is nothing wrong with praying to Heavenly Mother, especially for a woman, because as 100% perfect as Heavenly Father is he is still male.  He has no experience or ever can of being pregnant, giving birth, being a wife etc.  Why shouldn't a woman consult her Heavenly Mother on such items?  Eliza R. Snow would have supported that.

Specifically, I say do NOT pray to Heavenly Mother. Of course He knows what pregnancy is like. All burdens and pains were taken upon by His Only Begotten in order to know us and succor us.

[JLHPROF]

Specifically, I say do NOT pray to Heavenly Mother. Of course He knows what pregnancy is like. All burdens and pains were taken upon by His Only Begotten in order to know us and succor us.

 

Sorry, don't agree.  The male of the species cannot know what it feels like to have a life growing inside of them.  I'm not talking pain and suffering here.  I'm talking experience.

I don't believe for a second that Christ can know what that the female experience is, even if he took their pain away.

 

Should we pray to Heavenly Mother?  Probably not.  Am I going to tell one of her daughters that she can't confide in her mother about something her father has never experienced?  Nope.

[Darren10]

To be clear, I wasn't defending the church's teachings on exaltation, just setting it out for discussion.  That is the question asked in the OP.  If you think that women are exalted, I would appreciate a source.  My sources are D/C 132 and the temple liturgy.  Those sources teach that men are exalted, meaning they become as God.  Women are not exalted, they only become queens and priestesses to their husbands, not to God, and not to Heavenly Mother.  Thus, women are not exalted, though they are needed for men to become such.  That teaching bothers me greatly.  But I can't simply ignore it.

 

As for what exaltation means for men, I'm sure we have very little knowledge of the whole, but I would argue we have a greater idea of eternal fatherhood than we do regarding eternal motherhood.  From the scriptures and the temple liturgy, it seems clear that Father is engaged in creating worlds, populating them with life, and bringing about happiness for all creations.  For motherhood, all the scriptures teach is that women will bear children.  I (and probably most others) would assume women will do much more than that.  But that is all we know.  It would be nice to have more knowledge.  For that, we'd probably need to have Mother speak to us, and unfortunately as a people we are not willing to speak with Her right now.

 

 

JLHPROF, for what it's worth, I hold to a heretical view that not only do we have multiple mothers in heaven but multiple fathers in heaven (and by multiple I means probably thousands).  I extend the definition of "father" and "mother" to apply to anyone who condescends to the level of another in order to suffer with them and provide example to them so they can have more joy.  The prime example of this is Christ.  He is the best example of fatherhood for me, even though he is not a father in a biological sense.  It's also why I have hope that gay men and women will be fathers and mothers in the eternities, just as they are now.  True fatherhood and motherhood has little to nothing to do with passing on DNA.

If women are not exalted then aren't you preaching an anti oness? I have always read D&C 132 as all being exalted. "Man" there us generic meaning man and woman. Just like "God" can be used generically to mean man and woman.

[Darren10]

Sorry, don't agree.  The male of the species cannot know what it feels like to have a life growing inside of them.  I'm not talking pain and suffering here.  I'm talking experience.

I don't believe for a second that Christ can know what that the female experience is, even if he took their pain away.

 

Should we pray to Heavenly Mother?  Probably not.  Am I going to tell one of her daughters that she can't confide in her mother about something her father has never experienced?  Nope.

Christ took all experiences upon Himself. Everything that He may know us in all things.