Canadaigua Posted September 5, 2014 Author Posted September 5, 2014 From the Sunday School student Manual:1 Thessalonians 4:17. “Caught Up Together”The Joseph Smith Translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 reads: “Then they who are alive, shall be caught up together into the clouds with them who remain, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, footnote a). Many Christians use the word rapture (from a Latin term meaning “caught up”) when referring to the time when the righteous will be caught up to meet the Savior at His coming.A came across some interesting information on FAIR if you or other posters are interested. The link is below and I will quote a small section from the beginning of the article. http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology "QuestionWhat is the "Rapture"? Do Latter-day Saints believe in this or a similar doctrine?" AnswerModern revelation makes it clear that the saints will remain on the earth through the tribulation period until Christ's coming and those who are old or in the grave shall be changed to a resurrected state at that time. Younger saints will grow old and be changed in an instant at one hundred years of age. . . to inherit a glorious resurrection with God and Christ."
ERayR Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 I would like to hear your beliefs on the passage in question and how you are defining the Second Coming of Christ. The second coming is when he comes in glory. The verse about being caught up I have already addressed. Look back.
ERayR Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) 1 Thess 416 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Another poster said that rapture is not in the Bible but he didn't bother to do a little research before he said that. When you hear the term rapture, to the Christian it means "caught up" as stated in verse 17. The word rapture is not in the English Bible but it is in the Latin Vulgate. "caught up"Greek--ἁρπάζω (harpazō): vb.; ≡ snatch, seizeLatin--rapiemurEnglish--caught up I see if it isn't there all you have to do is to interpret it as there. Works for me. If you want to call it rapture then I guess I believe in the rapture but it still happens at his coming. Edited September 5, 2014 by ERayR
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Does anyone here think they'll live to see the Second Coming on earth?
ERayR Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology "QuestionWhat is the "Rapture"? Do Latter-day Saints believe in this or a similar doctrine?" AnswerModern revelation makes it clear that the saints will remain on the earth through the tribulation period until Christ's coming and those who are old or in the grave shall be changed to a resurrected state at that time. Younger saints will grow old and be changed in an instant at one hundred years of age. . . to inherit a glorious resurrection with God and Christ." This is not necessarily authoritative doctrine. Some of us would make some minor changes from which you have quoted (unless you have quoted out of context) in the timing of the resurrection but nothing substantive.
Flyonthewall Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Sure. The Second Coming of Christ refers to Christ's actual return to the earth. The event in the verse that I gave precedes Christ's return to the earth--even if this is just a short period of time. A came across some interesting information on FAIR if you or other posters are interested. The link is below and I will quote a small section from the beginning of the article. http://en.fairmormon...nd_LDS_theology "Question What is the "Rapture"? Do Latter-day Saints believe in this or a similar doctrine?" Answer Modern revelation makes it clear that the saints will remain on the earth through the tribulation period until Christ's coming and those who are old or in the grave shall be changed to a resurrected state at that time. Younger saints will grow old and be changed in an instant at one hundred years of age. . . to inherit a glorious resurrection with God and Christ."If you have been to Fairmormon and looked it up then you understand we don't see eye to eye on the timing of things... but really isn't an issue to me.
Kenngo1969 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Sometimes I look around and wonder..how wicked would the world have to be? Can it get worse? Then I really don't want to stay. I say bring on the Second Coming.I understand those feelings. I am not, in any sense (except that this life has lost much of its thrill for me) ready to meet my Maker. But this is the approach that I try to take respective to the Second Coming: [Alma 13] 25 And now we only wait to hear the joyful news declared unto us by the mouth of angels, of his coming; for the time cometh, we know not how soon. Would to God that it might be in my day; but let it be sooner or later, in it I will rejoice.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 I'm not ready spiritually, but I can't wait.
Canadaigua Posted September 5, 2014 Author Posted September 5, 2014 If you have been to Fairmormon and looked it up then you understand we don't see eye to eye on the timing of things... but really isn't an issue to me. http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology Joseph Smith and modern revelationJoseph Smith's inspired revision of Matthew 24 informs us that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (JS-M 1:18) and "after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect" (JS-M 1:36-37). DC 29:8 tells us that the "tribulation and desolation shall be upon the wicked," but Joseph Smith added that, "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], still many of the Saints will escape..."[2] Another interesting difference is noted in the first sentence of the quote above (bolded)--"the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem". Verses the Christian point of view that this will be God's wrath poured out on the entire world. In some ways we share some common beliefs in that we both believe that the believers will be spared God's wrath--the LDS believe that during the tribulation God's wrath is focused on a specific ethnic group and geographic location,whereas Christians believed that they will be removed prior to the tribulation.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 The important message is for everyone to do everything they can to be prepared spiritually for the 2nd Coming.
mfbukowski Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Your response shows me that you haven't bothered to look into this a little bit deeper. You haven't a clue what I am talking about- nor have you addressed the waiting room in the sky. There is no point in continuing.
mfbukowski Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) 1 Thess 416 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Another poster said that rapture is not in the Bible but he didn't bother to do a little research before he said that. When you hear the term rapture, to the Christian it means "caught up" as stated in verse 17. The word rapture is not in the English Bible but it is in the Latin Vulgate. Pretty hilarious. An English word in the Latin Vulgate. Good one! You cannot wrench words from other languages and presume they have the same meanings. You really can't stop quoting that, can you. Try it another dozen times and see if it helps. Edited September 5, 2014 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology Joseph Smith and modern revelation Joseph Smith's inspired revision of Matthew 24 informs us that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (JS-M 1:18) and "after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect" (JS-M 1:36-37). DC 29:8 tells us that the "tribulation and desolation shall be upon the wicked," but Joseph Smith added that, "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], still many of the Saints will escape..."%5B2%5D Another interesting difference is noted in the first sentence of the quote above (bolded)--"the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem". Verses the Christian point of view that this will be God's wrath poured out on the entire world. In some ways we share some common beliefs in that we both believe that the believers will be spared God's wrath--the LDS believe that during the tribulation God's wrath is focused on a specific ethnic group and geographic location,whereas Christians believed that they will be removed prior to the tribulation. You really need to make this type quite a bit smaller. Edited September 5, 2014 by mfbukowski
Flyonthewall Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology Joseph Smith and modern revelation Joseph Smith's inspired revision of Matthew 24 informs us that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (JS-M 1:18) and "after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect" (JS-M 1:36-37). DC 29:8 tells us that the "tribulation and desolation shall be upon the wicked," but Joseph Smith added that, "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], still many of the Saints will escape..."%5B2%5D Another interesting difference is noted in the first sentence of the quote above (bolded)--"the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem". Verses the Christian point of view that this will be God's wrath poured out on the entire world. In some ways we share some common beliefs in that we both believe that the believers will be spared God's wrath--the LDS believe that during the tribulation God's wrath is focused on a specific ethnic group and geographic location,whereas Christians believed that they will be removed prior to the tribulation.I suppose you missed this part of the passage you cited: "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], ..." Edited September 5, 2014 by Flyonthewall
Canadaigua Posted September 6, 2014 Author Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) You haven't a clue what I am talking about- nor have you addressed the waiting room in the sky. There is no point in continuing. Pretty hilarious. An English word in the Latin Vulgate. Good one! You cannot wrench words from other languages and presume they have the same meanings.A Latin word would be in the Latin Vulgate. So do you stand by your statement that rapture in not in the Bible and more specifically in the exact passage where you said that it was not? Edited September 6, 2014 by Canadaigua
Canadaigua Posted September 6, 2014 Author Posted September 6, 2014 You really need to make this type quite a bit smaller.Would you like to comment of the quote from the farimormon quote? Do you believe that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" i.e a geographically and ethnically isolated tribualation verses a tribulation that spans the entire globe. I suppose you missed this part of the passage you cited: "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], ..."" Joseph Smith and modern revelationJoseph Smith's inspired revision of Matthew 24 informs us that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (JS-M 1:18) and "after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect" (JS-M 1:36-37). DC 29:8 tells us that the "tribulation and desolation shall be upon the wicked," but Joseph Smith added that, "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], still many of the Saints will escape..."[2] I didn't miss the last bit but the overall message of this statement is that the tribulation will be focused on the Jews and Jerusalem, not on the rest of the world--particularly those who are righteous. What is the basis for God's wrath on those who are "righteous" or said another way what is the basis for judgment on the Saints?
ERayR Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) Would you like to comment of the quote from the farimormon quote? Do you believe that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" i.e a geographically and ethnically isolated tribualation verses a tribulation that spans the entire globe. "Joseph Smith and modern revelationJoseph Smith's inspired revision of Matthew 24 informs us that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (JS-M 1:18) and "after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect" (JS-M 1:36-37). DC 29:8 tells us that the "tribulation and desolation shall be upon the wicked," but Joseph Smith added that, "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], still many of the Saints will escape..."[2] I didn't miss the last bit but the overall message of this statement is that the tribulation will be focused on the Jews and Jerusalem, not on the rest of the world--particularly those who are righteous. What is the basis for God's wrath on those who are "righteous" or said another way what is the basis for judgment on the Saints? As I tried to tell you before, your understanding is too limited for you to understand the Mormon position . A couple of months reading Mormon publications and asking instead of assuming you know would go a long way. So do you want to learn or do you want to tell us what you think we believe. Edited September 6, 2014 by ERayR
danielwoods Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 As I tried to tell you before, your understanding is too limited for you to understand the Mormon position . A couple of months reading Mormon publications and asking instead of assuming you know would go a long way. So do you want to learn or do you want to tell us what you think we believe. Seems to me he asked a question? Why not answer his question? Either, it's not the mormon position (then state what is the position) Or It is the position of mormons and why?
ERayR Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 Seems to me he asked a question? Why not answer his question? Either, it's not the mormon position (then state what is the position) Or It is the position of mormons and why? IMNSHO he as phrased the question so that it can not be answered as it stands. Either that or I am getting too tired to comprehend what he is asking.
strappinglad Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 Actually Christ has had a ' second coming' and a third and a fourth and will have a couple more before the full blown appearance to the world . 1
danielwoods Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 IMNSHO he as phrased the question so that it can not be answered as it stands. Either that or I am getting too tired to comprehend what he is asking. I understand being tired. I'm tired too. Here's his question:What is the basis for God's wrath on those who are "righteous" or said another way what is the basis for judgment on the Saints? Which if the LDS believe that the Saints (the church) will have to endure God's judgement for some reason, that would be contrary to scripture, at least as I've understood it, I would also be curious why?
strappinglad Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 Some of us saints ain't so saintly. The lukewarmers will be spewed out! 1
Canadaigua Posted September 6, 2014 Author Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) As I tried to tell you before, your understanding is too limited for you to understand the Mormon position . A couple of months reading Mormon publications and asking instead of assuming you know would go a long way. So do you want to learn or do you want to tell us what you think we believe.I can't possibly learn what you believe unless you tell me. 1. Do you believe that the great tribulation is focused on the Jews and Jerusalem while sparing the righteous who are on the earth? 2. There are LDS writings that the Mormon church will resume animal sacrifices and some point in time in the latter days. Is this something that you believe will happen and can you expound on when this will start and will it take place outside all temples or just a select few? Edited September 6, 2014 by Canadaigua
Flyonthewall Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 Would you like to comment of the quote from the farimormon quote? Do you believe that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" i.e a geographically and ethnically isolated tribualation verses a tribulation that spans the entire globe. " Joseph Smith and modern revelation Joseph Smith's inspired revision of Matthew 24 informs us that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (JS-M 1:18) and "after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect" (JS-M 1:36-37). DC 29:8 tells us that the "tribulation and desolation shall be upon the wicked," but Joseph Smith added that, "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], still many of the Saints will escape..."%5B2%5D I didn't miss the last bit but the overall message of this statement is that the tribulation will be focused on the Jews and Jerusalem, not on the rest of the world--particularly those who are righteous. What is the basis for God's wrath on those who are "righteous" or said another way what is the basis for judgment on the Saints?My take on it, and I do not claim to be any type of a scriptorian, is that Jesus was talking to the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (see Matthew 24:9), and I think it would be safe to say the Jews, throughout history have born a great amount of hatred, but we understand the tribulations will not be confined to the Jews or Jerusalem. The Saints will not escape unscathed for the same reason the lord causes it to rain on the just and the unjust, there will be collateral damage so to speak. Unrighteousness and evil will be throughout the world and affect all flesh, just as it says.
Canadaigua Posted September 6, 2014 Author Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) My take on it, and I do not claim to be any type of a scriptorian, is that Jesus was talking to the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (see Matthew 24:9), and I think it would be safe to say the Jews, throughout history have born a great amount of hatred, but we understand the tribulations will not be confined to the Jews or Jerusalem.The Saints will not escape unscathed for the same reason the lord causes it to rain on the just and the unjust, there will be collateral damage so to speak. Unrighteousness and evil will be throughout the world and affect all flesh, just as it says.As I said in a prior post we have several points in agreement, namely that the tribulation (great tribulation) is a time of judgement on the wicked and on the Jews which will eventually lead may Jews to recognize Christ as their true Messiah. Christians certainly that they will face tribulation and we see that today with all of the Christians being persecuted particualarly in the Middle East today. But tribulation is different then the great tribulation because the later is God's punishment on the world. Why punish the true believers? One point where we differ is that you believe that the true believers (Saints) will live through the great tribulation but will be sheltered from God punishment. My position is that the Saints will be removed. This belief is based on a few verses. If you like we can take a look at them. Edited September 6, 2014 by Canadaigua
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