carbon dioxide Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 I believe that what is called the 2nd Coming is a long time away. There are 3 local appearance of Christ that have to occur before the great event anyway. Christ has to come to the New Jerusalem Temple, Adam-ondi-Ahman and to the Jews at the Mount of Olives. Perhaps if I am lucky, I might be around for one of these visits.
Jeanne Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 What makes you think they want it?-guerreiro9 What makes you think they want it?-guerreiro9I really don't know of course..but the word "destroy" always seems like a 'must' in so many of the scriptures. I know that I would not want to destroy my own children.
carbon dioxide Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 Christians and LDS have a few similar beliefs as it pertains to the latter times.Events such as: The two prophets who will be killed and then raised; increased turmoil and wickedness; earthquakes; pestilence; the battle of Armageddon; the second coming of Christ. However there certainly are some major differences. When I have discussed end times with LDS members they don't seem to any anticipated sequence of events, and they often give conflicting information. Is there any official position on this subject that can be found on LDS.org? This would certainly be helpful for further discussion but also would be helpful for those LDS who seem to be unclear about their own doctrine.LDS believe many things will happen on the earth before what is called the "Second Coming". Many wars and disasters all over the world, New Jerusalem to be built, a great and powerful king in Israel named David will rule and he will fulfill everything that David in the Old Testament could not do. LDS study these things BUT our focus is on the present than what and when things will happen in the future. Future events do not affect our salvation but what we do in the present does affect our salvation and what we do in the present often determines what we will do in the future. A good website on many LDS last day issues with talks ect is at www.ldslastdays.com It is a site dedicated to LDS last days issues.
guerreiro9 Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 I really don't know of course..but the word "destroy" always seems like a 'must' in so many of the scriptures. I know that I would not want to destroy my own children.Nor does our father in heaven want to "destroy" his.-guerreiro9 1
carbon dioxide Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) Rapture is just one of many things. Out of interest why do you say that the rapture is "non-biblical" since it is in the Bible?(I have discussed this topic with LDS and some believe in the rapture--however they differ on the timing of course)LDS do believe in what is called the rapture Moroni 10:34: "And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen." D&C 88:96-98 "And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—They are Christ's, the first fruits [of the resurrection], and they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him..." LDS do believe there will be great tribulations before Christ comes but we do not subscribe to one being either 3 1/2 or 7 year period but one of an unknown length. Christ comes to end all tribulations. The rapture, resurrection, and Christ Coming all occur after this time of tribulation. The scriptures in the Bible shows that the "rapture" and Christ coming occurs at the same time. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."Jesus descendsA voice of an angel and a trumpThe dead are resurrectedThose alive are "caught up" with the resurrected dead them in the clouds to meet the LordA parallel passage is found in Matthew 24:29-31 :Matthew 24:29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds [from the Greek Anemosis which always refers to the sense of air in the New Testament], from one end of heaven to the other."After the tribulation, the sun is darkened and moon does not give life, ectThe Son of man (Jesus) comes with the clouds of heaven with angels and a trumpet.Everyone shall see this event and as a result mourn. (See also Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him.")The elect are gathered from the "four winds" or air.1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:30-31 refer to the same event. The common elements are present in both with nothing present in them that distinguishes as separate events. There is nothing to suggest that Jesus and the elect hang in the atmosphere forvever. They will go somewhere. Why not down to the ground? Edited September 4, 2014 by carbon dioxide
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 1 Thessalonians 4:15–1815 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Here is the passage that you are referring to that I quoted in my post. If you take a close look at it again it doesn't say that Christ comes to the Earth so this event precedes the Second Coming of Christ by a period of time.Uh, no. Notice it says THEN we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. The only way the second event could be some period after the first is if those who rose earlier were hanging around in the clouds waiting for the others to meet up with them. Maybe it makes sense for a few hour delay, but I don't think they would be left floating for days or a period years waiting to complete their journey- it just doesnt make sense 1
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 Where did you get this from post #2? He didnt of course, but that is what his pastor and a hundred websites told him we believe. And even if we disagree- he has already mentioned that Protestants don't agree about it either. And of course he is not counting Catholics as "Christians" either since they don't believe in the rapture in the sense he does. Catholics read those scriptures the same way we do as I recall. 2
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 Christians and LDS have a few similar beliefs as it pertains to the latter times.Events such as: The two prophets who will be killed and then raised; increased turmoil and wickedness; earthquakes; pestilence; the battle of Armageddon; the second coming of Christ. However there certainly are some major differences. When I have discussed end times with LDS members they don't seem to any anticipated sequence of events, and they often give conflicting information. Is there any official position on this subject that can be found on LDS.org? This would certainly be helpful for further discussion but also would be helpful for those LDS who seem to be unclear about their own doctrine. What about the Protestants who are unclear on their doctrine? You are getting fewer and fewer legs to stand on. Thanks for the link. You are correct some believe in a pre tribulation rapture such as myself but other Protestants believe in a mid trib, and some even a post tribulation rapture (most similar to the LDS position). Each has reasons for why they believe what they do. For example you supported your position (a post tribulation rapture) with Revelation 13:7. But from a pre trib point of view this doesn't conflict at all because there will be many people who were not believers who convert during the tribulation period often referred to as tribulation saints, and they will likely lose their life for their profession of faith in Christ. One issue I see with the post trib rapture is that those who are raptured are resurrected--they go up to meet Christ in the air and are resurrected--then come immediately back down to earth. If all of the believers are resurrected then who is left to populate the millennium?
ERayR Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 He didnt of course, but that is what his pastor and a hundred websites told him we believe. And even if we disagree- he has already mentioned that Protestants don't agree about it either. And of course he is not counting Catholics as "Christians" either since they don't believe in the rapture in the sense he does. Catholics read those scriptures the same way we do as I recall. Brevity seems to always be a stumbling block for the newly minted witness to the Mormons acolyte. 1
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 Brevity seems to always be a stumbling block for the newly minted witness to the Mormons acolyte.The reality is, it is a very weak position for someone who obviously knows nothing about Mormonism to come here with well informed Mormons who have heard it all before a hundred times from a hundred newbies saying all the same things their pastors told them to say. 2
Vance Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 The reality is, it is a very weak position for someone who obviously knows nothing about Mormonism to come here with well informed Mormons who have heard it all before a hundred times from a hundred newbies saying all the same things their pastors told them to say.And the elephant question in the room is, "why would their pastor mislead them like that?"
Canadaigua Posted September 4, 2014 Author Posted September 4, 2014 Where did you get this from post #2?Here was what you said." Are you referring to the non-biblical concept of the rapture?"You stated that the rapture is "non-Biblical" in your question.
ERayR Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) Here was what you said." Are you referring to the non-biblical concept of the rapture?"You stated that the rapture is "non-Biblical" in your question. Nope just asking if you were referring to the being caught at the time of his coming or in pre or mid term tribulation. Just a suggestion: You seem to be coming in with a less than elementary understanding of Mormonism so why don't you just tone down and ask questions and learn instead of trying to tell us what we believe. You will find we (most of us) dialog pretty well but do not have much patience with accusatory instruction in what we believe. Most of us are pretty aware of what we believe. Edited September 4, 2014 by ERayR 1
Canadaigua Posted September 4, 2014 Author Posted September 4, 2014 He didnt of course, but that is what his pastor and a hundred websites told him we believe.And even if we disagree- he has already mentioned that Protestants don't agree about it either. And of course he is not counting Catholics as "Christians" either since they don't believe in the rapture in the sense he does. Catholics read those scriptures the same way we do as I recall.The question was whether or not the rapture was Biblical since ta poster (post #2) says that it is not. I provided the verses that show that this is taught in the Bible.Are you saying that it is not?
Canadaigua Posted September 4, 2014 Author Posted September 4, 2014 Nope just asking if you were referring to the being caught at the time of his coming or in pre or mid term tribulation.So you do believe in the rapture? It sure sounded like you didn't in post #2. So would you say that you believe in the post tribulation rapture?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 So you do believe in the rapture? It sure sounded like you didn't in post #2. So would you say that you believe in the post tribulation rapture?We don't believe in the rapture as what most of mainstream Evangelical community does. That before tribulation people will just disappear and their clothes are neatly folded. That is really the main part I think we disagree with. The part we do agree with is what is spoke of in the bible that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds. So its a timing thing. When I hear the word "rapture" it is typically the EV slant. LDS do not referred to this time as the rapture. But that point is really not important. 1
ERayR Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 So you do believe in the rapture? It sure sounded like you didn't in post #2. So would you say that you believe in the post tribulation rapture? It says the righteous who remain at his coming will be caught up. If that is what you call the rapture then yes I probably do. I just haven't put much thought into the subject but rather try to direct my efforts toward being ready whenever it comes. 3
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 The question was whether or not the rapture was Biblical since ta poster (post #2) says that it is not. I provided the verses that show that this is taught in the Bible. Are you saying that it is not?Of course it is not. The word "rapture" in this context appears nowhere in the bible. It is an Evangelical construction of an interpretation of a verse or two, and now they are making movies about it. The bible says what it says, and the rest is construction. 2
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 Of course it is not. The word "rapture" in this context appears nowhere in the bible. It is an Evangelical construction of an interpretation of a verse or two, and now they are making movies about it.The bible says what it says, and the rest is construction.This is exactly what I had in mind. I used to argue this all the time on my mission. "Do you believe in the rapture". Nope, that word does not even appear in the text of the bible.
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 So you do believe in the rapture? It sure sounded like you didn't in post #2. So would you say that you believe in the post tribulation rapture? That's like saying "Do you believe in the Eucharist? It's right there in the bible". Both concepts are based on interpretations of the bible and traditions etc. Neither is truly "biblical" 3
Canadaigua Posted September 4, 2014 Author Posted September 4, 2014 That's like saying "Do you believe in the Eucharist? It's right there in the bible". Both concepts are based on interpretations of the bible and traditions etc. Neither is truly "biblical"1 Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. So you simply ignore this verse. Is that what I am hearing you say?
Canadaigua Posted September 4, 2014 Author Posted September 4, 2014 That's like saying "Do you believe in the Eucharist? It's right there in the bible". Both concepts are based on interpretations of the bible and traditions etc. Neither is truly "biblical"Pocket Dictionary of Theilogical TermsEucharistFrom the Greek word eucharistē (I give thanks), the term has been used in the Christian tradition to refer to one of the central rites of the church, namely, the ongoing commemoration of the last supper that Christ had with his disciples before his crucifixion or the commemoration of the crucifixion itself. As such, the Eucharist is a celebration of thanksgiving to God for the redemptive work of Christ. The term Eucharist (or Mass) has generally been used in Roman Catholic and Anglican traditions, while Protestant traditions generally prefer to speak of the celebration as the Lord’s Supper, Communion or “the breaking of bread.”I believe in taking the sacrament. Don't you?Perhaps you meant to say transubstantiation.
strappinglad Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) words, words , everywhere wordsmessing up the dialogue, blowing my mindmeans this, no, means that, don't you read the words? ( with apologies to les emmerson ) Edited September 4, 2014 by strappinglad 1
Canadaigua Posted September 4, 2014 Author Posted September 4, 2014 Christians believe that the Jews will rebuild their temple and restart animal sacrifices. This is interesting because Mormonism also teaches that they will restart animal sacrifices. Perhaps a knowledgeable poster can tell me more about this and when these animal sacrifices will start and are they planned on taking place on the temple grounds.
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 1 Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. So you simply ignore this verse. Is that what I am hearing you say?Oh my gosh. You ignore my analysis of that line and then ask me again. I already answered that- look above somewhere. "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.. TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR" does not use the word rapture and clearly says that all this will happen virtually at once- not one group first, then the other weeks months or years later. This is not even an issue of doctrine- it is reading comprehension. Any other interpretation is not true to the text. Quote it another 7 times, the interpretation will not change. 1
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