Last Days--Signs Of The Times

[mfbukowski]

Pocket Dictionary of Theilogical Terms

Eucharist

From the Greek word eucharistē (I give thanks), the term has been used in the Christian tradition to refer to one of the central rites of the church, namely, the ongoing commemoration of the last supper that Christ had with his disciples before his crucifixion or the commemoration of the crucifixion itself. As such, the Eucharist is a celebration of thanksgiving to God for the redemptive work of Christ. The term Eucharist (or Mass) has generally been used in Roman Catholic and Anglican traditions, while Protestant traditions generally prefer to speak of the celebration as the Lord’s Supper, Communion or “the breaking of bread.”

I believe in taking the sacrament. Don't you?

Perhaps you meant to say transubstantiation.

You are not getting this. Neither "Eucharist" nor "sacrament" nor "Transubstantiation" are biblical.

These are, as you have pointed out so nicely, TRADITIONS. We believe our "traditions" are inspired doctrine- you don't. So it cuts both ways. If you are sola scriptura, traditions don't count. NONE of these words are biblical.

[mfbukowski]

And the elephant question in the room is, "why would their pastor mislead them like that?"

One has to make a living and have something to make sermons about. As long as you have enemies, it is profitable to denounce them instead of making Christianity one fold and one shepherd. Heck you can make an anti website and advertise and get contributions to your "ministry" to those poor stupid Mormons.

Hey, it's a living.

[mfbukowski]

Oh my gosh.

You ignore my analysis of that line and then ask me again. I already answered that- look above somewhere.

"CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.. TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR" does not use the word rapture and clearly says that all this will happen virtually at once- not one group first, then the other weeks months or years later.

This is not even an issue of doctrine- it is reading comprehension. Any other interpretation is not true to the text.

Quote it another 7 times, the interpretation will not change.

Edit- see post 31.

There- I found it for you

[ERayR]

One has to make a living and have something to make sermons about. As long as you have enemies, it is profitable to denounce them instead of making Christianity one fold and one shepherd. Heck you can make an anti website and advertise and get contributions to your "ministry" to those poor stupid Mormons.

Hey, it's a living.

 

And who cares about accuracy?

[mfbukowski]

And who cares about accuracy?

Accuracy in balancing the checkbook is all that counts

[ERayR]

Accuracy in balancing the checkbook is all that counts

 

Well if you don't the bank gets pretty cranky and charges you a lot for the irritation.

[Canadaigua]

Oh my gosh.

You ignore my analysis of that line and then ask me again. I already answered that- look above somewhere.

"CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.. TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR" does not use the word rapture and clearly says that all this will happen virtually at once- not one group first, then the other weeks months or years later.

 

""CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.. TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR"

 

Before we discuss a couple misperceptions on your part in your post above perhaps you could pin down what you believe because I am still unclear.  The above statement that YOU wrote is what Christians call the rapture.  So do you believe what you wrote--and what is stated in the Bible--about being caught up to meet the Lord in the air OR are you simply disregarding it? 

[Canadaigua]

You are not getting this. Neither "Eucharist" nor "sacrament" nor "Transubstantiation" are biblical.

 

LDS.org

On the night before His Crucifixion, Jesus Christ met with His Apostles and instituted the sacrament (see Luke 22:19–20).

 

Both Christians and LDS believe that the Sacrament is Biblical. 

[Canadaigua]

The word "rapture" in this context appears nowhere in the bible. It is an Evangelical construction of an interpretation of a verse or two, and now they are making movies about it.

 

Your response shows me that you haven't bothered to look into this a little bit deeper.  

[Flyonthewall]

The term "rapture" is not used in LDS dialogue, so when it is used, there may not be a very good understanding of what is meant by it. I, for one, really don't know what it means. If all it means is "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.. TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR", I would simply call that the 2nd Coming.

[danielwoods]

Your response shows me that you haven't bothered to look into this a little bit deeper.

 

They are getting tripped up on the fact that the actual latin word "rapture" isn't used, the concept is still there, just not the latin word.

 

"Rapture critics like to claim that the word "rapture" is not located in the Bible. It may not be in the King James, but the word "rapture" is found in the Bible, if you have the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome in the early 400s. The Vulgate was the main Bible of the medieval Western Church until the Reformation. It continues to this day as the primary Latin translation of the Roman Catholic Church. It was Protestants who introduced the word "rapture" into the English language from the Latin raeptius. It was Jerome's Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpazo used by Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in 1 Thes. 4:17, which is usually translated into English with the phrase "caught up." The leading Greek Lexicon says that harpazo means "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently." This is the same meaning of the Latin word rapio "to seize, snatch, tear away." It should not be surprising to anyone, that an English word was developed from the Latin which we use today known as "rapture.""

 

https://www.raptureready.com/abc/rapture.html

[Canadaigua]

The term "rapture" is not used in LDS dialogue, so when it is used, there may not be a very good understanding of what is meant by it. I, for one, really don't know what it means. If all it means is "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.. TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR", I would simply call that the 2nd Coming.

I think that we would both agree that the Second Coming of Christ is when Christ comes to the Earth.  If you look at the passage there is no mention of Christ coming to the earth so this must precede the Second Coming (by at least some amount of time).  Second in the passage the believers are resurrected--if this takes place at the Second Coming then all of the believers would be resurrected and who would populate the earth during the Millenium?

[Jeanne]

Sometimes I look around and wonder..how wicked would the world have to be?  Can it get worse?  Then I really don't want to stay.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I say bring on the Second Coming.

Edited September 5, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie

[JLHPROF]

The term "rapture" is not used in LDS dialogue, so when it is used, there may not be a very good understanding of what is meant by it. I, for one, really don't know what it means. If all it means is "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.. TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR", I would simply call that the 2nd Coming.

 

Actually, I was under the impression that the EV definition of the rapture was more based in Matthew 24:

 

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

Isn't this combined with the "caught up" in Thessalonians where the Rapture idea comes from?  And where we got those awful "Left Behind" movies?

[danielwoods]

Sometimes I look around and wonder..how wicked would the world have to be?  Can it get worse?  Then I really don't want to stay.

 

Notice what it says here in 2 Thess. 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, ² not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. ³ Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. ⁴ He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

⁵ Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? ⁶ And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. ⁷ For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. ⁸ And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. ⁹ The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, ¹⁰ and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. ¹¹ For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie ¹² and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

 

 

 

The description above is about a time in the future, when the Holy Spirit (who is currently "holding him back") will be taken out of the way. Which I believe is the same time when the believers (who also have the Holy Spirit) will be taken from this Earth. When the Holy Spirit is taken "out of the way" this world will not be a pleasant place at all. 

[ERayR]

I think that we would both agree that the Second Coming of Christ is when Christ comes to the Earth.  If you look at the passage there is no mention of Christ coming to the earth so this must precede the Second Coming (by at least some amount of time).  Second in the passage the believers are resurrected--if this takes place at the Second Coming then all of the believers would be resurrected and who would populate the earth during the Millenium?

 

Ye do err not understanding the scriptures.

[Canadaigua]

Ye do err not understanding the scriptures.

I would like to hear your beliefs on the passage in question and how you are defining the Second Coming of Christ.

[Flyonthewall]

Actually, I was under the impression that the EV definition of the rapture was more based in Matthew 24:

 

Isn't this combined with the "caught up" in Thessalonians where the Rapture idea comes from?  And where we got those awful "Left Behind" movies?

I would think the Thessalonians passage and this Matthew passage would go together as they use common language. Matthew is most definitely talking about the 2nd Coming, and there is no doubt in my mind that Thessalonians is too.

[Canadaigua]

Actually, I was under the impression that the EV definition of the rapture was more based in Matthew 24:

 

Isn't this combined with the "caught up" in Thessalonians where the Rapture idea comes from?  And where we got those awful "Left Behind" movies?

1 Thess 4

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

Another poster said that rapture is not in the Bible but he didn't bother to do a little research before he said that.  When you hear the term rapture, to the Christian it means "caught up" as stated in verse 17.  The word rapture is not in the English Bible but it is in the Latin Vulgate.

 

"caught up"

Greek--ἁρπάζω (harpazō): vb.; ≡  snatch, seize

Latin--rapiemur

English--caught up

[Canadaigua]

I would think the Thessalonians passage and this Matthew passage would go together as they use common language. Matthew is most definitely talking about the 2nd Coming, and there is no doubt in my mind that Thessalonians is too.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Second Coming of Jesus Christ

"The second coming of Jesus Christ refers to his return to the earth in glory to reign as King of Kings, as contrasted to his first coming as an infant in Bethlehem."

 

The Second Coming = the return of Christ to the earth.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I can't wait, but I'll probably die before it happens.

[Flyonthewall]

Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Second Coming of Jesus Christ

"The second coming of Jesus Christ refers to his return to the earth in glory to reign as King of Kings, as contrasted to his first coming as an infant in Bethlehem."

 

The Second Coming = the return of Christ to the earth.

I am sure you mean something by this but it escapes me... could you elaborate?

[Flyonthewall]

From the Sunday School student Manual:

1 Thessalonians 4:17. “Caught Up Together”

The Joseph Smith Translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 reads: “Then they who are alive, shall be caught up together into the clouds with them who remain, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, footnote a). Many Christians use the word rapture (from a Latin term meaning “caught up”) when referring to the time when the righteous will be caught up to meet the Savior at His coming.

[Canadaigua]

I am sure you mean something by this but it escapes me... could you elaborate?

Sure.  The Second Coming of Christ refers to Christ's actual return to the earth.  The event in the verse that I gave precedes Christ's return to the earth--even if this is just a short period of time.