Last Days--Signs Of The Times

[mfbukowski]

You said that the two witnesses in Revelation 11 "could be visiting apostles".  

 

Revelation 11 doesn't say that the two witnesses are "visiting apostles" rather it gives specific details about them and says that they will witness for 3 1/2 years.  There is no indication that the witnesses have started their ministry and since they have not started then you know that Christ can't come back for at least 3 1/2 years.  This means that according to your beliefs Christ can't come back at any time.  

LOL

No sorry- that is not our terminology.  You do not know what a "prophet" is for us.

 

There is so much wrong with this it is hard to even list how many things are wrong with this theory, much less explain it to you.

 

First of all, it is biblical- and the bible is subject to revision through inspiration, and is true "insofar as it is translated correctly", according to our definition of "translate" which includes inspired dictation, as was the case with the Book of Abraham.  Joseph essentially re-wrote vast sections of the bible but never finished his project.

 

Even IF you are right:

You have no indication if they have started their ministry or not.

Perhaps their ministry is by internet

Apostles are ordained "prophets"

Nobody says this is going to happen within 3 years - so it is all in the future anyway.  You would have to have a crystal ball and see the future to make your statements correct.

 

You sir are just here to waste people's time.  You have not answered the questions about the rapture because you know you are trapped.  Then you move on to another topic and then another and another.

 

You have no understanding of our beliefs or terminology and how our system works.

 

In short your arguments are woefully inadequate and a waste of time.  I don't even see any of our other Evangelical brothers defending you because they know you have no comprehension of the LDS world view.

 

In short, discussing anything with you is a waste of time, and I hope the mods suspend you as they have threatened.  You really don't belong here.  You are trolling this board and wasting bandwidth.

[mfbukowski]

I have not quoted "individuals" I have given you several statements by your own leaders.  Take a look at the quotes from the link below and let's talk about what they said.

 

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/AnimalSacrificesFuture.pdf

I am a "leader"- why have you not quoted me??

 

Your statements are of no value because you don't understand enough to even make a coherent argument

[mfbukowski]

This thread is about LDS end times--not what Christians believe about end times.  But I would be happy to try and answer your questions.  What question specifically would you like for me to answer?

AND every time you make a distinction between "Christians" and "LDS"  you are insulting us

 

You come into our living room and spit on the carpet.  Great move. 

[mfbukowski]

You said that the two witnesses in Revelation 11 "could be visiting apostles".  

 

Revelation 11 doesn't say that the two witnesses are "visiting apostles" rather it gives specific details about them and says that they will witness for 3 1/2 years.  There is no indication that the witnesses have started their ministry and since they have not started then you know that Christ can't come back for at least 3 1/2 years.  This means that according to your beliefs Christ can't come back at any time.  

Just look at the logic here.

 

Christ must come back within 3 1/2 years or he cannot come back at all.

 

Idiocy.

[mfbukowski]

I have not quoted "individuals" I have given you several statements by your own leaders.  Take a look at the quotes from the link below and let's talk about what they said.

 

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/AnimalSacrificesFuture.pdf

I guess "leaders" are not "individuals".  Interesting idea.

 

I guess that is because they are possessed by legions of devils.

[mfbukowski]

I am trying to determine end time similarities and differences between Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism.

Unfortunately, Evangelicals can't even agree on the Rapture or when or how it happens

 

How can you compare our positions if you don't even have one?

[Vance]

This thread is about LDS end times--not what Christians believe about end times.

Moving the topic are you. The title of this thread is "Last Days--Signs Of The Times"

And from the OP we have,

Christians and LDS have a few similar beliefs as it pertains to the latter times. . . . . However there certainly are some major differences.

How can we discuss "differences" if one side of the "differences" is off topic?

You are just continuing to NOT answer questions. And we know why. You are unable to defend your position.

 

But I would be happy to try and answer your questions.  What question specifically would you like for me to answer?

Why is there such variation of beliefs about the "rapture" within the Evangelical community? Edited September 10, 2014 by Vance

[cinepro]

Sorry, but your sources are NOT official doctrine. We can talk about the opinions of leaders but opinions of leaders are NOT official doctrine.

 

For those who didn't follow the link, these are the sources to which Vance is objecting:

 

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172-173; History of the Church 4:210-212

 

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.94.

 

Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 1:128

 

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

 

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:326 (Joseph Smith)

 

Larry E. Dahl & Donald Q. Cannon, eds., The Teachings of Joseph Smith, (SLC: Bookcraft, 1997), 595.

 

As an LDS who frequents these boards, I can understand the nuances of Vance's claims. 

 

But looking at it from the perspective of someone who isn't Mormon, I can see why they might consider clear, multiple statements from Joseph Smith, as reiterated by other LDS Apostles and Prophets to be a little more than "opinions of leaders."  It's not as if some Bishop in Kanab was the only one making these claims or something.

 

I would even go so far as to say that such a reaction to such statements makes the entire apologetics enterprise look a little silly, maybe disingenuous, and possibly mentally impaired.

[mfbukowski]

I suppose we could get into the whole question of why you believe the bible is true anyway.  Because someone told you it was, and because everyone believes it is true I suppose.   You should spend some time in India and then ask the same question, where virtually no one believes the bible is literally "true" and few even accept it at all.

 

Why the difference?

 

But you won't answer any of these quesitons will you?

 

Discussion would be a waste of time. 

[mfbukowski]

For those who didn't follow the link, these are the sources to which Vance is objecting:

 

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172-173; History of the Church 4:210-212

 

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.94.

 

Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 1:128

 

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

 

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:326 (Joseph Smith)

 

Larry E. Dahl & Donald Q. Cannon, eds., The Teachings of Joseph Smith, (SLC: Bookcraft, 1997), 595.

 

As an LDS who frequents these boards, I can understand the nuances of Vance's claims. 

 

But looking at it from the perspective of someone who isn't Mormon, I can see why they might consider clear, multiple statements from Joseph Smith, as reiterated by other LDS Apostles and Prophets to be a little more than "opinions of leaders."  It's not as if some Bishop in Kanab was the only one making these claims or something.

 

I would even go so far as to say that such a reaction to such statements makes the entire apologetics enterprise look a little silly, maybe disingenuous, and possibly mentally impaired.

So what else is new?  Everyone everywhere thinks we look silly and mentally impaired.  Get over it.  How many Evangelical leaders have differing opinions?  What is their "doctrine"?   And Evangelicals do NOT look "silly and mentally impaired" to the world??

 

Go ahead then, YOU explain the nuances to this troll.

 

Good luck.

Edited September 10, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Vance]

It's not as if some Bishop in Kanab was the only one making these claims or something.

Yeah, because stuff a leader wrote while NOT acting as a leader must be accepted as doctrine even if he never claimed it as such.

Go ahead and ride that horse if you want. But don't expect the rest of us to do the same.

[cinepro]

So what else is new?  Everyone everywhere thinks we look silly and mentally impaired.  Get over it.  How many Evangelical leaders have differing opinions?  What is their "doctrine"?   And Evangelicals do NOT look "silly and mentally impaired" to the world??

 

Go ahead then, YOU explain the nuances to this troll.

 

Good luck.

 

 

I'm just saying that if I were wondering what the Catholics believed about something, and I found several statements from a Pope that had been reiterated by later Popes and Cardinals and it hadn't ever been contradicted , I might find it a little odd to have a Catholic on a message board say "that's just the opinion of some of our leaders". 

 

Sure he could say it, but I probably wouldn't believe him.

[Vance]

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172-173; History of the Church 4:210-212

 

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.94.

 

Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 1:128

 

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

 

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:326 (Joseph Smith)

 

Larry E. Dahl & Donald Q. Cannon, eds., The Teachings of Joseph Smith, (SLC: Bookcraft, 1997), 595.

Please feel free to show which of those sources are considered OFFICIAL sources of LDS doctrine.

[ERayR]

Please feel free to show which of those sources are considered OFFICIAL sources of LDS doctrine.

 

Vance the point is you and I know they are not but Canadaigua doesn't.  His minister left that out of the witnessing to Mormons class.  That is why I suggested he take time to gain an understanding of Mormons, which he promptly ignored.

[Vance]

Vance the point is you and I know they are not but Canadaigua doesn't.  His minister left that out of the witnessing to Mormons class.  That is why I suggested he take time to gain an understanding of Mormons, which he promptly ignored.

And if he is interested in getting it right then that is wonderful. But if he is not interested in getting it right but only attacking what he claims is doctrine then I DON'T CARE WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT US OR OUR DOCTRINE!

Just saying.

[ERayR]

And if he is interested in getting it right then that is wonderful. But if he is not interested in getting it right but only attacking what he claims is doctrine then I DON'T CARE WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT US OR OUR DOCTRINE!

Just saying.

 

You do not need to shout at me.  I am not the enemy nor does it intimidate me.

[cinepro]

Yeah, because stuff a leader wrote while NOT acting as a leader must be accepted as doctrine even if he never claimed it as such.

Go ahead and ride that horse if you want. But don't expect the rest of us to do the same.

 

Honestly, it appears to be the same horse that FAIR is riding, so I'm not sure where this strong objection is coming from.  This is hardly fodder for anti-Mormons.

 

As FAIR points out, the current Institute manual for the Doctrine and Covenants teaches this in its discussion of Section 13:1.  So every college-age LDS who takes an institute course on the D&C is supposed to learn this.

 

The last gasp in these conversations is when the objector desperately tries to drive the conversation into a discussion over what is or isn't "doctrine".  It's taught in the Scriptures (D&C 13:1).  It was taught by Joseph Smith.  It was reiterated by Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie.  It's taught in current CES manuals. 

 

Make of that what you will, but I suspect for most people that exceeds the limits of what would comfortably be classified as merely the "opinions of leaders."

[mfbukowski]

I'm just saying that if I were wondering what the Catholics believed about something, and I found several statements from a Pope that had been reiterated by later Popes and Cardinals and it hadn't ever been contradicted , I might find it a little odd to have a Catholic on a message board say "that's just the opinion of some of our leaders". 

 

Sure he could say it, but I probably wouldn't believe him.

Well in fact we have discussions like that - BETWEEN CATHOLICS here all the time where Catholic popes and other "leaders", it is said, disagree with each other.  Look at any thread discussing Traditionalist Catholics, or opinions on the present Pope Francis comparing him to others.

 

And again, it is hardly as if Evangelicals agree among themselves on these matters.  They simply do not.  https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=WP13MoBJADEC&rdid=book-WP13MoBJADEC&rdot=1&source=gbs_vpt_read&pcampaignid=books_booksearch_viewport

 

It's all the pot calling the kettle black.  But at least we believe in an open canon, and they do not, which means we actually have a reason for having inconsistent "doctrine" where they do not.

 

Our doctrine in effect includes the doctrine that doctrine changes.  Others do not.

Edited September 10, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Canadaigua]

Sorry, but your sources are NOT official doctrine. We can talk about the opinions of leaders but opinions of leaders are NOT official doctrine.

Here are the sources from the link provided

 

http://emp.byui.edu/...ficesFuture.pdf

 

1.  Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172-173; History of the Church 4:210-212.

 

2.  Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.94.

 

3.  Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 1:128

 

4.  Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

 

5.  Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:326 (Joseph Smith)

 

6.  Larry E. Dahl & Donald Q. Cannon, eds., The Teachings of Joseph Smith, (SLC: Bookcraft, 1997), 595.

[Canadaigua]

Canadaigua

Revelation 11 doesn't say that the two witnesses are "visiting apostles" rather it gives specific details about them and says that they will witness for 3 1/2 years.  There is no indication that the witnesses have started their ministry and since they have not started then you know that Christ can't come back for at least 3 1/2 years.  This means that according to your beliefs Christ can't come back at any time.  

 

 

Mfbukowski

LOL

No sorry- that is not our terminology.  You do not know what a "prophet" is for us.

 

There is so much wrong with this it is hard to even list how many things are wrong with this theory, much less explain it to you.

 

First of all, it is biblical- and the bible is subject to revision through inspiration, and is true "insofar as it is translated correctly", according to our definition of "translate" which includes inspired dictation, as was the case with the Book of Abraham.  Joseph essentially re-wrote vast sections of the bible but never finished his project.

 

Even IF you are right:

You have no indication if they have started their ministry or not.

Perhaps their ministry is by internet

Apostles are ordained "prophets"

Nobody says this is going to happen within 3 years - so it is all in the future anyway.  You would have to have a crystal ball and see the future to make your statements correct.

 

You sir are just here to waste people's time.  You have not answered the questions about the rapture because you know you are trapped.  Then you move on to another topic and then another and another.

 

You have no understanding of our beliefs or terminology and how our system works.

 

In short your arguments are woefully inadequate and a waste of time.  I don't even see any of our other Evangelical brothers defending you because they know you have no comprehension of the LDS world view.

 

In short, discussing anything with you is a waste of time, and I hope the mods suspend you as they have threatened.  You really don't belong here.  You are trolling this board and wasting bandwidth.

Revelation 11

3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.

6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.

7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,

8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,

10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 

 

 

Since this thread is about LDS end times could you tell me what these verses from Revelation 11 mean as it relates to LDS end times beliefs?

[mfbukowski]

Revelation 11

3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.

6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.

7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,

8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,

10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 

 

 

Since this thread is about LDS end times could you tell me what these verses from Revelation 11 mean as it relates to LDS end times beliefs?

Pointless.

[ERayR]

Revelation 11

3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.

6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.

7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,

8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,

10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 

 

 

Since this thread is about LDS end times could you tell me what these verses from Revelation 11 mean as it relates to LDS end times beliefs?

 

I asked you to what end are these posts aimed?  You do not answer questions put to yo so as for me I am about through answering your questions until you reciprocate.

[Vance]

Here are the sources from the link provided

 

http://emp.byui.edu/...ficesFuture.pdf

 

1.  Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172-173; History of the Church 4:210-212.

 

2.  Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.94.

 

3.  Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 1:128

 

4.  Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

 

5.  Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:326 (Joseph Smith)

 

6.  Larry E. Dahl & Donald Q. Cannon, eds., The Teachings of Joseph Smith, (SLC: Bookcraft, 1997), 595.

Yes, and not a single one of them are official sources for LDS doctrine. What is official doctrine has already been posted by me in post #153.

Why is there such variation of beliefs about the "rapture" within the Evangelical community?

Edited September 10, 2014 by Vance

[mfbukowski]

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-study-guide/the-revelation-of-saint-john-the-divine/revelation-11-two-special-witnesses?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/1-thessalonians-and-2-thessalonians/chapter-46-1-thessalonians-and-2-thessalonians?lang=eng&query=rapture

Edited September 10, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Vance]

Since this thread is about LDS end times could you tell me what these verses from Revelation 11 mean as it relates to LDS end times beliefs?

From the OP, this thread is about differences of beliefs. Why is there such variation of beliefs about the "rapture" within the Evangelical community?

Edited September 10, 2014 by Vance