Last Days--Signs Of The Times

[Flyonthewall]

As I said in a prior post we have several points in agreement, namely that the tribulation (great tribulation) is a time of judgement on the wicked and on the Jews which will eventually lead may Jews to recognize Christ as their true Messiah.  Christians certainly that they will face tribulation and we see that today with all of the Christians being persecuted particualarly in the Middle East today.  But tribulation is different then the great tribulation because the later is God's punishment on the world.  Why punish the true believers?  One point where we differ is that you believe that the true believers (Saints) will live through the great tribulation but will be sheltered from God punishment. My position is that the Saints will be removed.  This belief is based on a few verses.  If you like we can take a look at them.

I don't believe the true believers will be punished, but simply caught up in the effects going on around them. For example, if there is an earthquake, it will affect both the "true believers" and the wicked.

Bottom line, we both believe there will be a second coming, just disagree on the details or sequence of events. Is that really a big issue?

[ERayR]

I can't possibly learn what you believe unless you tell me.  

 

1.  Do you believe that the great tribulation is focused on the Jews and Jerusalem while sparing the righteous who are on the earth?

 

2.  There are LDS writings that the Mormon church will resume animal sacrifices and some point in time in the latter days.   Is this something that you believe will happen and can you expound on when this will start and will it take place outside all temples or just a select few? 

1 - No.  It is  IMO a consequence of governmental policies and actions world wide.  Everybody living then will be affected to a greater or lessor degree.

 

2 - It has been years since I even read about this but no animal sacrifice is not nor will it be part of the LDS church.  As I remember it will be the sons of Levi which are the priests of Israel. 

[mfbukowski]

A Latin word would be in the Latin Vulgate.

 

 

So do you stand by your statement that rapture in not in the Bible and more specifically in the exact passage where  you said that it was not?

I think perhaps English is your second language? I wish I was better at the languages I do not speak well also.

You want me to quote the passage where "rapture" does NOT appear? Seriously?

That would be the whole bible.

You have not answered a single question I have raised. I am sorry but we are not communicating at all. You are so locked into your presumptions that you cannot even conceive of any other possibilities. You have no ability to question your own assumptions at all.

Edited September 6, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

As I tried to tell you before, your understanding is too limited for you to understand the Mormon position .  A couple of months reading Mormon publications and asking instead of assuming you know would go a long way.

 

So do you want to learn or do you want to tell us what you think we believe.

There's no communication possible here.

[Canadaigua]

As I tried to tell you before, your understanding is too limited for you to understand the Mormon position .  A couple of months reading Mormon publications and asking instead of assuming you know would go a long way.

 

So do you want to learn or do you want to tell us what you think we believe.

It seems like you are avoiding addressing these issues?  Why is that?

[Canadaigua]

You want me to quote the passage where "rapture" does NOT appear? Seriously?

That would be the whole bible.

 

1 Thess 4:17

Latin Vulgate

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

 

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord

 

Below is from a LDS friendly site 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology Origin of the term and concept the word rapture is said to come from a Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo which is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

[Canadaigua]

. . .It has been years since I even read about this but no animal sacrifice is not nor will it be part of the LDS church.  As I remember it will be the sons of Levi which are the priests of Israel. 

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

The Bible prophet Malachi predicted a time when Levites would again offer sacrifice in righteousness (Mal. 3:3). Such offerings will not be of the Mosaic type, which were fulfilled in Christ. However, the sacrificial system that antedated Moses was not fulfilled in Jesus. The Prophet Joseph Smith, taught that blood sacrifices similar to those revealed to Adam will once again be performed prior to Christ's second coming in order to complete the restoration of all things (TPJS, pp. 172-73; DS 3:94-95). These may be undertaken for only a brief period and perhaps only by a selected group.

 

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172-173; History of the Church 4:210-212.

Sacrifice to Be Part of Restoration

It will be necessary here to make a few observations on the doctrine set forth in the above quotation, and it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e.,] the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in future; but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the Priesthood, or with the Prophets.

The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. We frequently have mention made of the offering of sacrifice by the servants of the Most High in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses; which ordinances will be continued when the Priesthood is restored with all its authority, power and blessings....

All Ordinances Restored

These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass? It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses' day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued. . .

[mfbukowski]

I understand being tired. I'm tired too. Here's his question:

 

 

 

Which if the LDS believe that the Saints (the church) will have to endure God's judgement for some reason, that would be contrary to scripture, at least as I've understood it, I would also be curious why?

It must be contagious.

Who believes that we will be punished contrary to scripture?

 

No one

 

And what does that have to do with the conversation?

Edited September 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

As I said in a prior post we have several points in agreement, namely that the tribulation (great tribulation) is a time of judgement on the wicked and on the Jews which will eventually lead may Jews to recognize Christ as their true Messiah.  Christians certainly that they will face tribulation and we see that today with all of the Christians being persecuted particualarly in the Middle East today.  But tribulation is different then the great tribulation because the later is God's punishment on the world.  Why punish the true believers?  One point where we differ is that you believe that the true believers (Saints) will live through the great tribulation but will be sheltered from God punishment. My position is that the Saints will be removed.  This belief is based on a few verses.  If you like we can take a look at them.

And as has been said from my first post, that interpretation of the scriptures you have posted again and again, makes no sense.

 

I have already said that twice, and you keep ignoring my point.

[mfbukowski]

Would you like to comment of the quote from the farimormon quote?

Did you actually read it?  Of course I agree with it- it represents the LDS position.

[mfbukowski]

^{What is the basis for God's wrath on those who are "righteous" or said another way what is the basis for judgment on the Saints?}

Why do you do this with the teeny type?

Joseph answers it-

 

for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape

 

So what's your point??

 

Somebody gets drunk and drives a car and kills a family of believers which causes the righteous to suffer.  This is hard to understand?

 

Due to the fact that we have agency, bad things happen to good people, perpetrated by bad people.  So what?  Hurricanes take out everything in their path- righteous and wicked.

 

You have still not answered how it is possible that both those who rise early and those who rise later will "meet together in the sky".

 

Why are you avoiding that question?

Edited September 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[ERayR]

Did you actually read it?  Of course I agree with it- it represents the LDS position.

 

Of course not.  How can he score points if he takes time to read something he doesn't understand anyway.

[mfbukowski]

1 Thess 4:17

Latin Vulgate

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

 

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord

 

Below is from a LDS friendly site 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology Origin of the term and concept the word rapture is said to come from a Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo which is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

rapio

Contents

• 1 Latin
  • 1.1 Etymology
  • 1.2 Pronunciation
  • 1.3 Verb
    • 1.3.1 Inflection
    • 1.3.2 Derived terms
    • 1.3.3 Descendants

Latin

Etymology

From Proto-Indo-European *h₁rep-

Pronunciation

• (Classical) IPA^(key): /ˈra.pi.oː/

Verb

present active rapiō, present infinitive rapere, perfect active rapuī, supine raptum

•  
• I snatch, grab, carry off, abduct

So what does this have to do with the English word "rapture"?

 

rap·ture

ˈrapCHər/

noun

noun: rapture; noun: Rapture; noun: the Rapture

1.

a feeling of intense pleasure or joy.

"Leonora listened with rapture"

synonyms: ecstasy, bliss, exaltation, euphoria, elation, joy, enchantment, delight, happiness, pleasure

"she gazed at him in rapture"

 

Especially considering that the original Greek, I am sure has nuances of meaning not equivalent to the Latin in the first place.  So you are taking a Greek word, translating it into Latin and then translating the Latin into modern English and saying that somehow all these different words in different languages and contexts are equivalent?

 

Uh, I most heartily disagree.  "Rapture" is not biblical  In fact the Latin root, "rapio" is where we get the word "rape"- meaning to abduct.  I really don't think you want to say that those who are carried away are "raped" do you??

 

The Biblical passage says nothing about ecstacy, bliss, exaltation, elation joy enchantment delight happiness or pleasure.

 

The passage refers to going up into heaven.  Period.  And it clearly is talking about two different events, or else one would have a waiting room in the sky where the first group was waiting for the second group.  Ridiculous.

Edited September 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

 

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

The Bible prophet Malachi predicted a time when Levites would again offer sacrifice in righteousness (Mal. 3:3). Such offerings will not be of the Mosaic type, which were fulfilled in Christ. However, the sacrificial system that antedated Moses was not fulfilled in Jesus. The Prophet Joseph Smith, taught that blood sacrifices similar to those revealed to Adam will once again be performed prior to Christ's second coming in order to complete the restoration of all things (TPJS, pp. 172-73; DS 3:94-95). These may be undertaken for only a brief period and perhaps only by a selected group.

 

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172-173; History of the Church 4:210-212.

Sacrifice to Be Part of Restoration

It will be necessary here to make a few observations on the doctrine set forth in the above quotation, and it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e.,] the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in future; but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the Priesthood, or with the Prophets.

The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. We frequently have mention made of the offering of sacrifice by the servants of the Most High in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses; which ordinances will be continued when the Priesthood is restored with all its authority, power and blessings....

All Ordinances Restored

These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass? It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses' day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued. . .

 

Neither of those sources are doctrinal of course, but they might be right.

1- So what if we DO sacrifices or not? 

 

2- Show me CONSISTENT, agreed upon Evangelical "doctrine" on your point.  You guys don't agree about anything except that we are NOT "Christians", much less the alleged "rapture".

[mfbukowski]

Strong's  http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/harpazo.html
 

 

Our LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - King James VersionHarpazo

Harpazo

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon  Strong's Number:   726    Original Word Word Origin aJrpavzw from a derivative of (138) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Harpazo 1:472,80 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech har-pad'-zo    Verb  Definition

1. to seize, carry off by force
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. to snatch out or away

   King James Word Usage - Total: 13 catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1

 

 

Doesn't sound all that pleasurable to me.  So what does this have to do with the English word "rapture"??

[Jeanne]

Just  live tomorrow as if it were your last.

 

Shakespear:  "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.  Creeps past this petty place from day to day and all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death.

 

Out ...out brief candle, life is but a walking shadow; a poor player who struts and frets  his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more."
 

Live and love fully and whatever happens ..happens.  Your best earthly rememberance is "no regrets".

 

Hugs,

Jeanne

Edited September 7, 2014 by Jeanne

[Vance]

 

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

The Bible prophet Malachi predicted a time when Levites would again offer sacrifice in righteousness (Mal. 3:3). Such offerings will not be of the Mosaic type, which were fulfilled in Christ. However, the sacrificial system that antedated Moses was not fulfilled in Jesus. The Prophet Joseph Smith, taught that blood sacrifices similar to those revealed to Adam will once again be performed prior to Christ's second coming in order to complete the restoration of all things (TPJS, pp. 172-73; DS 3:94-95). These may be undertaken for only a brief period and perhaps only by a selected group.

 

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172-173; History of the Church 4:210-212.

Sacrifice to Be Part of Restoration

It will be necessary here to make a few observations on the doctrine set forth in the above quotation, and it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e.,] the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in future; but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the Priesthood, or with the Prophets.

The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. We frequently have mention made of the offering of sacrifice by the servants of the Most High in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses; which ordinances will be continued when the Priesthood is restored with all its authority, power and blessings....

All Ordinances Restored

These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass? It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses' day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued. . .

 

No where in there do I find "animal sacrifices" mentioned.  In fact it is quite clear that the sacrifices mentioned are NOT animal sacrifices. You continue to read crap (and I do mean crap) into your source texts that just isn't there.

 

Peter mentions the sacrifices required by priesthood holders, (as does the author of Hebrews). 

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

BUT since you are clueless regarding the priesthood and its requirements I will try to be patient with you.

[Canadaigua]

No where in there do I find "animal sacrifices" mentioned.  In fact it is quite clear that the sacrifices mentioned are NOT animal sacrifices. You continue to read crap (and I do mean crap) into your source texts that just isn't there.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

The Bible prophet Malachi predicted a time when Levites would again offer sacrifice in righteousness (Mal. 3:3). Such offerings will not be of the Mosaic type, which were fulfilled in Christ. However, the sacrificial system that antedated Moses was not fulfilled in Jesus. The Prophet Joseph Smith, taught that blood sacrifices similar to those revealed to Adam will once again be performed prior to Christ's second coming in order to complete the restoration of all things (TPJS, pp. 172-73; DS 3:94-95). These may be undertaken for only a brief period and perhaps only by a selected group.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Canadaigua

[Canadaigua]

No where in there do I find "animal sacrifices" mentioned.  In fact it is quite clear that the sacrifices mentioned are NOT animal sacrifices. You continue to read crap (and I do mean crap) into your source texts that just isn't there. . .

 

. . .BUT since you are clueless regarding the priesthood and its requirements I will try to be patient with you.

Below is a quote from another thread on this forum (post #21).  Anyone interested can also look at Chris Smith's post (#10) and click the link which teaches more about Joseph Smith and Animal Sacrifices.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/52255-animal-sacrifice-in-latter-day-temples/

 

"The members of the Church are reminded that the practice of polygamous or plural marriage is not the only law whose suspension has been authorized by the Lord and adopted by the people. The law of animal sacrifice, in force in ancient Israel, has been suspended, but the Prophet Joseph asserted it would be again restored, and such is the effect of the statement made by John the Baptist when restoring the Aaronic priesthood. The law of the United Order has likewise been suspended, to be reestablished in the due time of the Lord. Other laws might be mentioned. [Messages of the First Presidency, vol 5, p. 327]"

[Vance]

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, SACRIFICE IN BIBLICAL TIMES

The Bible prophet Malachi predicted a time when Levites would again offer sacrifice in righteousness (Mal. 3:3). Such offerings will not be of the Mosaic type, which were fulfilled in Christ. However, the sacrificial system that antedated Moses was not fulfilled in Jesus. The Prophet Joseph Smith, taught that blood sacrifices similar to those revealed to Adam will once again be performed prior to Christ's second coming in order to complete the restoration of all things (TPJS, pp. 172-73; DS 3:94-95). These may be undertaken for only a brief period and perhaps only by a selected group.

Again, where is the "animal sacrifice" to be found in there? You are assuming that you know what is meant by "blood sacrifices similar to . . .", but you don't.

[Vance]

Below is a quote from another thread on this forum (post #21).  Anyone interested can also look at Chris Smith's post (#10) and click the link which teaches more about Joseph Smith and Animal Sacrifices.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/52255-animal-sacrifice-in-latter-day-temples/

 

"The members of the Church are reminded that the practice of polygamous or plural marriage is not the only law whose suspension has been authorized by the Lord and adopted by the people. The law of animal sacrifice, in force in ancient Israel, has been suspended, but the Prophet Joseph asserted it would be again restored, and such is the effect of the statement made by John the Baptist when restoring the Aaronic priesthood. The law of the United Order has likewise been suspended, to be reestablished in the due time of the Lord. Other laws might be mentioned. [Messages of the First Presidency, vol 5, p. 327]"

Here is a clue for you. Chris Smith does NOT speak for the Church. In fact, I don't think he is even a member of the Church. Edited September 9, 2014 by Vance

[ERayR]

Again, where is the "animal sacrifice" to be found in there? You are assuming that you know what is meant by "blood sacrifices similar to . . .", but you don't.

 

I think if you want to take the time you will find that those sacrifices will be done by the Sons of Levi or in other words Israelite priests. 

[Canadaigua]

Here is a clue for you. Chris Smith does NOT speak for the Church. In fact, I don't think he is even a member of the Church.

Chris Smith doesn't speak for the Church, your leaders do.  So what do you think about what your leaders have said about animal sacrifices?  Do you believe them?

[Canadaigua]

I think if you want to take the time you will find that those sacrifices will be done by the Sons of Levi or in other words Israelite priests. 

Non Mormon "Israelite priests"?

[ERayR]

Non Mormon "Israelite priests"?

 

I think that would be correct..