Canadaigua Posted September 10, 2014 Author Posted September 10, 2014 Unfortunately, Evangelicals can't even agree on the Rapture or when or how it happens How can you compare our positions if you don't even have one?1 Thessalonians 413 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. When Evangelical Christians use the term "rapture" what is meant by term is that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as mentioned in the above verses. Some use the term "rapture", others use the term harpazō (ἁρπάζω) which is from the Greek NT . Obviously the term "harpazo" is the preferred word since it is the English word translated from the word in the Greek NT, but for some reason the more common term used is "rapture". For those who believe in the rapture the only real debate in the timing.
mfbukowski Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 I asked you to what end are these posts aimed? You do not answer questions put to yo so as for me I am about through answering your questions until you reciprocate.It's a waste of time.
Canadaigua Posted September 10, 2014 Author Posted September 10, 2014 Yes, and not a single one of them are official sources for LDS doctrine. What is official doctrine has already been posted by me in post #153. Do you believe that the LDS leaders were teaching false doctrine?
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 Just in case the last times are near, everyone should prepare their families for end of times weather disasters, and financial disasters. We're all in this together.
Canadaigua Posted September 10, 2014 Author Posted September 10, 2014 It's a waste of time.This thread is about LDS end time beliefs--not Evangelical end time beliefs. But I have shared what Evangelicals believe when asked. You seem to be avoiding answering what you believe. Why is that?
mfbukowski Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 1 Thessalonians 413 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. When Evangelical Christians use the term "rapture" what is meant by term is that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as mentioned in the above verses. Some use the term "rapture", others use the term harpazō (ἁρπάζω) which is from the Greek NT . Obviously the term "harpazo" is the preferred word since it is the English word translated from the word in the Greek NT, but for some reason the more common term used is "rapture". For those who believe in the rapture the only real debate in the timing.How many times have you posted this? I get it- you are a computer aren't you? An automated program
mfbukowski Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Do you believe that the LDS leaders were teaching false doctrine?Do you believe evangelicals who disagree with you are preaching false doctrine? Doctrine is not "true" or "false" any more than green or red are false or true. Doctrine changes. There is nothing objective to measure doctrine against. Edited September 10, 2014 by mfbukowski 3
mfbukowski Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 It's a waste of time.Well back to work. No more time for video games against robots with no answers. 1
Vance Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 Do you believe that the LDS leaders were teaching false doctrine?No, what they were expressing wasn't doctrine (true or false) at all but simply their opinion. And their opinion although extremely valuable is not official doctrine. What is official is recorded in scripture and other official sources. And again, I will ask for the fourth time. Why is there such variation of beliefs about the "rapture" within the Evangelical community?
Vance Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 This thread is about LDS end time beliefs--not Evangelical end time beliefs.FALSE!!!!!! This is about the differences. How can we discuss the differences when you are limiting the discussion to only one side? But I have shared what Evangelicals believe when asked. You seem to be avoiding answering what you believe. Why is that?But you keep avoiding the question. I will ask it the fifth time. Why is there such variation of beliefs about the "rapture" within the Evangelical community?
ERayR Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 How many times have you posted this? I get it- you are a computer aren't you? An automated program Either that or he is . . . Sorry but what I was thinking is against board rules to post. Carry on.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Do you believe that the LDS leaders were teaching false doctrine?Yes, I do. They were teaching false doctrine. Should I leave my church and join yours? Edited September 10, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 2
Canadaigua Posted September 10, 2014 Author Posted September 10, 2014 How many times have you posted this? I get it- you are a computer aren't you? An automated programBelow was your post followed by my response. You seemed to either misread my prior posts or simply tried to misrepresent what I have said--hence the need to restate it again for you. mfbukowskiUnfortunately, Evangelicals can't even agree on the Rapture or when or how it happens How can you compare our positions if you don't even have one? Canadaigua1 Thessalonians 413 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. When Evangelical Christians use the term "rapture" what is meant by term is that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as mentioned in the above verses. Some use the term "rapture", others use the term harpazō (ἁρπάζω) which is from the Greek NT . Obviously the term "harpazo" is the preferred word since it is the English word translated from the word in the Greek NT, but for some reason the more common term used is "rapture". For those who believe in the rapture the only real debate in the timing.
ERayR Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 How many times have you posted this? I get it- you are a computer aren't you? An automated programBelow was your post followed by my response. You seemed to either misread my prior posts or simply tried to misrepresent what I have said--hence the need to restate it again for you. mfbukowskiUnfortunately, Evangelicals can't even agree on the Rapture or when or how it happens How can you compare our positions if you don't even have one? Canadaigua1 Thessalonians 413 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. When Evangelical Christians use the term "rapture" what is meant by term is that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as mentioned in the above verses. Some use the term "rapture", others use the term harpazō (ἁρπάζω) which is from the Greek NT . Obviously the term "harpazo" is the preferred word since it is the English word translated from the word in the Greek NT, but for some reason the more common term used is "rapture". For those who believe in the rapture the only real debate in the timing. Does it take much effort to appear this obtuse?
Canadaigua Posted September 10, 2014 Author Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Do you believe evangelicals who disagree with you are preaching false doctrine? The timing of the rapture is not clearly spelled out in scripture hence the various views on when this will happen so I don't consider those with a different viewpoint to be teaching false doctrine. I guess the same question could go to you since some LDS believe in a rapture and some do not. Perhaps you could clarify the LDS position on the doctrine of the rapture. Edited September 10, 2014 by Canadaigua
Canadaigua Posted September 10, 2014 Author Posted September 10, 2014 Does it take much effort to appear this obtuse?If you recall it was your post (post#2) that started this whole subject on the rapture. You are the one who brought this up--not me. If you recall you said "Are you referring to the non-biblical concept of the rapture?" Clearly the "concept" is Biblical--yet in post #2 you didn't seem to think so at that time. How do you stand now on this?
Vance Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 The timing of the rapture is not clearly spelled out in scripture hence the various views on when this will happen so I don't consider those with a different viewpoint to be teaching false doctrine.LOL!!! Perhaps you could clarify the LDS position on the doctrine of the rapture.Seriously dude. "Rapture" is your gig not ours. We believe what the scriptures (including the Bible) teach about the second coming. For example this one, 1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Vance Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 If you recall it was your post (post#2) that started this whole subject on the rapture. What, you mean the OP didn't have anything to do with it?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 The timing of the rapture is not clearly spelled out in scripture hence the various views on when this will happen so I don't consider those with a different viewpoint to be teaching false doctrine. So much for the Sola Scriptura. So if it is not clearly spelled out we will just make it up as we go. 2
Flyonthewall Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 LDS do not use the term "rapture". That is a label assigned by others and assigned meaning to it. We believe there will be events associated with the 2nd coming, and the one described in 1 Thessalonians is simply one of them. We have not assigned a label to it other than one of the events of the 2nd coming. This is from one of our NT Student manuals - 1 Thessalonians 4:17. “Caught Up Together” The Joseph Smith Translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 reads: “Then they who are alive, shall be caught up together into the clouds with them who remain, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, footnote a). Many Christians use the word rapture (from a Latin term meaning “caught up”) when referring to the time when the righteous will be caught up to meet the Savior at His coming.
mfbukowski Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 LDS do not use the term "rapture". That is a label assigned by others and assigned meaning to it.We believe there will be events associated with the 2nd coming, and the one described in 1 Thessalonians is simply one of them. We have not assigned a label to it other than one of the events of the 2nd coming.This is from one of our NT Student manuals -I have already posted that and answered every one of his questions several times. I honestly think there is some kind of serious problem here or he is just yanking our chains. All he does is repeat the same thing again and again. I am surprised the mods have not ended it. Memory problems?
Canadaigua Posted September 11, 2014 Author Posted September 11, 2014 LOL!!! Seriously dude."Rapture" is your gig not ours. We believe what the scriptures (including the Bible) teach about the second coming. When Evangelical Christians use the term "rapture" they simply mean that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as noted in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. You seem to be skipping what I have said because if you recall I have posted the following quote from FAIR and if you look at it closely you would realize that this is taught and believed by LDS as well--the main difference is on the timing of when this will occur. The quote below is virtually identical to what Christians would call a post-tribulation rapture--believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and then come right back down again. http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology"Again in D&C section 88 the Lord warns, "prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come; that their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked both in this world and in the world to come" (DC 88:84-85). "And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—They are Christ's, the first fruits [of the resurrection], and they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him... (D&C 88:96-98).Thus begins the resurrection of the just and the millennial reign of Christ on the earth (see DC 88:99-101; Revelation 20:4-6). Those who are caught up are not taken into heaven but reign "with Christ a thousand years" on the earth.[3] Thereafter, "they shall reign for ever and ever" with him (Revelation 22:4-5)."
Canadaigua Posted September 11, 2014 Author Posted September 11, 2014 LDS do not use the term "rapture". That is a label assigned by others and assigned meaning to it. I understand. And as I have said before some people used harpazo which is the translation of the word for caught up in the Greek NT. We could simply use the term "caught up" or anything else for that matter but I am referring to the concept--not necessarily the label that is used.
Flyonthewall Posted September 11, 2014 Posted September 11, 2014 I understand. And as I have said before some people used harpazo which is the translation of the word for caught up in the Greek NT. We could simply use the term "caught up" or anything else for that matter but I am referring to the concept--not necessarily the label that is used.So am I to understand that the difference between our belief in being "caught up" as outlined in the scriptures is so far afield from Evangelical beliefs that it is evidence of a different gospel, even in the light of the differences of belief within the Evangelical community?
Canadaigua Posted September 11, 2014 Author Posted September 11, 2014 I honestly think there is some kind of serious problem here or he is just yanking our chains. All he does is repeat the same thing again and again. I have repeated several things because you and others have either overlooked what I have said or have misrepresented what I have said. Recall the topic of this thread is not about what I believe but rather what LDS such as yourself believe. You say that you have answered all of my questions but that is not the case. A lot of your responses have been along the lines of I don't care. I would think that since you believe that you have the truth you would be more willing to share that truth but thus far that has not been the case.
Recommended Posts