Critics Accusations Of Financial Improprieties

[ERayR]

I understand and respect your position.  I gather you'd be similarly comfortable if they decided to stop reporting membership & statistical information as well, that being their stewardship.

 

Yup.

[Thinking]

Some posters who are defending the closed financial books policy are claiming that an open books policy would mean that the record of every little purchase or donation would be available to all. Nobody is asking for such a ridiculous scenario. Something as simple as what the 7th Day Adventists publish would be a step in the right direction.

 

Contributions In US Dollars

Tithe - $2,314,826,002.
Tithe Per Capita - $134.72
Sabbath School Mission Offerings - $73,275,709.
Ingathering - $9,189,884.
Total Tithe and Offerings - $3,276,600,259.
Total Tithe and Offerings Per Capita - $190.69

Adventist Development and Relief Agency International (ADRA)

Countries and Areas of the World Where ADRA is Present* more than - 120
Total Projects Funded* - 1,294
Beneficiaries of Projects* - 12,536,522
Total Value of Aid* - $246,088,214
( * Supporting and Implementing)

[thesometimesaint]

Some posters who are defending the closed financial books policy are claiming that an open books policy would mean that the record of every little purchase or donation would be available to all. Nobody is asking for such a ridiculous scenario. Something as simple as what the 7th Day Adventists publish would be a step in the right direction.

 

What the matter with those Adventists. They not spending enough on aid. See how it works?

[ERayR]

What the matter with those Adventists. They not spending enough on aid. See how it works?

 

Yup a measly $246,088,214 out of $3,276,600,259.  That's how it works.

 

Disclaimer:  I really don't care how much the Seventh Day Adventist spend on what.  The preceding was for illustrative purposes only.

[rockpond]

What the matter with those Adventists. They not spending enough on aid. See how it works?

 

 

Yup a measly $246,088,214 out of $3,276,600,259.  That's how it works.

 

Disclaimer:  I really don't care how much the Seventh Day Adventist spend on what.  The preceding was for illustrative purposes only.

 

And yet they haven't stopped reporting their finances.

 

Besides, we already report our expenditures on aid.  (Or, at least we did through 2011.)

[USU78]

Yup a measly $246,088,214 out of $3,276,600,259.  That's how it works.

 

Disclaimer:  I really don't care how much the Seventh Day Adventist spend on what.  The preceding was for illustrative purposes only.

 

Yup.  'cause we all know 7.5% of the gross take is in line with the worst of the eleemosynary scams!

[thesometimesaint]

Yup a measly $246,088,214 out of $3,276,600,259.  That's how it works.

 

Disclaimer:  I really don't care how much the Seventh Day Adventist spend on what.  The preceding was for illustrative purposes only.

 

I don't either. But I was hoping for Thinking to see that so called transparency isn't all that it is cracked up to be. There will still be critics of how others spend their money.

[rockpond]

I don't either. But I was hoping for Thinking to see that so called transparency isn't all that it is cracked up to be. There will still be critics of how others spend their money.

 

We already have critics of how the church handles its finances.  And we'll have them whether we disclose or not.  I don't see it as a reason to not disclose.

[thesometimesaint]

And yet they haven't stopped reporting their finances.

 

Besides, we already report our expenditures on aid.  (Or, at least we did through 2011.)

 

If it was just those outside the faith. I doubt anyone world really care. But we are talking about those within the faith be it LDS or Seventh-day Adventists.

[ERayR]

And yet they haven't stopped reporting their finances.

 

 

 

And why is that relevant?

[rockpond]

And why is that relevant?

 

For the same reason (or lack of reason) that your post #779 was relevant.

 

You were pointing out how easy it is to criticize.  I am pointing out that it apparently doesn't bother the Adventists enough to make them stop disclosing.

 

Though I disagree with it, I can accept the case put forward by you and others that common consent does not require disclosure of finances.  But this argument that we can't disclose because it opens us up to criticism does not make sense to me.

Edited August 20, 2014 by rockpond

[Thinking]

I don't either. But I was hoping for Thinking to see that so called transparency isn't all that it is cracked up to be. There will still be critics of how others spend their money.

 

However, with real information, the apologists could actually defend and not just say, "I trust the brethren."

 

Below are some items that would go a long way to help people understand where all the money goes.

 

New Buildings

Maintenance

Utilities

Missionary Program

Public Relations

Publications

Church Employee Salaries (Danites included)

Disaster Relief

Non-disaster Relief

 

Again, nobody is asking to see every receipt of every project or every employee's salary. A total in each category would be sufficient.

[ERayR]

Though I disagree with it, I can accept the case put forward by you and others that common consent does not require disclosure of finances.  But this argument that we can't disclose because it opens us up to criticism does not make sense to me.

 

I think it is irrelevant I was just illustrating, with tss, something that you didn't think was likely.   The relevant thing to me is how you, and others, define common consent.  I understand your reasoning but I think it is in error.

[ERayR]

However, with real information, the apologists could actually defend and not just say, "I trust the brethren."

 

Below are some items that would go a long way to help people understand where all the money goes.

 

New Buildings

Maintenance

Utilities

Missionary Program

Public Relations

Publications

Church Employee Salaries (Danites included)

Disaster Relief

Non-disaster Relief

 

Again, nobody is asking to see every receipt of every project or every employee's salary. A total in each category would be sufficient.

 

Please explain why?

[rockpond]

I think it is irrelevant I was just illustrating, with tss, something that you didn't think was likely.

 

I have never said or implied that I thought criticism was unlikely.  In fact, I've always stated that we have critics of our finances now and we would have them if we disclose.  On that you and I agree!

[CV75]

I agree with what you've written here.  Completely.  And I don't wish to be interpreted as saying that because I believe that financial disclosure is warranted that I am saying they need our "go-ahead" or approval to act in the matters of their stewardship.  For me it's the issue of only being able to truly sustain what one has knowledge of.  

 

 

Correct - that's how I understand your position on this.  And that's why I stated my presumption that if they stopped reporting the church statistics (because they are under no requirement to do so) then you would be supportive of that decision.

As I pointed out, we are not asked to sustain the stewardship, but the offices and the appointees that are given the stewardship. The knowledge required to do this is spiritual, not financial. We sustain the Lord in giving us new scripture by receiving them by covenant. When we live the law of consecration, we sustain each other in whatever order or system is currently in place.

 

When you seek financial disclosure because you feel you cannot sustain the stewardship without it, you might be forgetting that common consent in this case is not about sustaining a stewardship but about sustaining the prophets in doing “all things” relative to their stewardships, which are given them of the Lord.

[thesometimesaint]

However, with real information, the apologists could actually defend and not just say, "I trust the brethren."

 

Below are some items that would go a long way to help people understand where all the money goes.

 

New Buildings

Maintenance

Utilities

Missionary Program

Public Relations

Publications

Church Employee Salaries (Danites included)

Disaster Relief

Non-disaster Relief

 

Again, nobody is asking to see every receipt of every project or every employee's salary. A total in each category would be sufficient.

 

Why is it necessary? For me it has little to nothing to do with trust, though I do trust them.  I willingly give to the Church, with no expectation of financial return or accountability. Once I give it, it is no longer mine. IE; If I give a poor guy on the street some money. Do I really have a say in how he spends it?

 

Really, I am content to have nice buildings to meet in, HVAC, electricity, water and septic system, along with all the other things that provide a safe and comfortable Church experience. I remember Ward budget assessments, Temple assessments, purchasing church books and other supplies in our individual quorums. We don't do that now, and it seems to work out fine.

[ERayR]

Why is it necessary? For me it has little to nothing to do with trust, though I do trust them.  I willingly give to the Church, with no expectation of financial return or accountability. Once I give it, it is no longer mine. IE; If I give a poor guy on the street some money. Do I really have a say in how he spends it?

 

Really, I am content to have nice buildings to meet in, HVAC, electricity, water and septic system, along with all the other things that provide a safe and comfortable Church experience. I remember Ward budget assessments, Temple assessments, purchasing church books and other supplies in our individual quorums. We don't do that now, and it seems to work out fine.

 

tss do you support disclosing financial statements?  It is unclear, to me, from this post.  I was asking Thinking why.

[rockpond]

Why is it necessary? For me it has little to nothing to do with trust, though I do trust them.  I willingly give to the Church, with no expectation of financial return or accountability. Once I give it, it is no longer mine. IE; If I give a poor guy on the street some money. Do I really have a say in how he spends it?

 

Really, I am content to have nice buildings to meet in, HVAC, electricity, water and septic system, along with all the other things that provide a safe and comfortable Church experience. I remember Ward budget assessments, Temple assessments, purchasing church books and other supplies in our individual quorums. We don't do that now, and it seems to work out fine.

 

Temple assessments are still done.  Though I'm not sure if they are still called that.  My sister and brother-in-law were recently asked to donate by their Bishop after the temple was announced in their area.

[rockpond]

As I pointed out, we are not asked to sustain the stewardship, but the offices and the appointees that are given the stewardship. The knowledge required to do this is spiritual, not financial. We sustain the Lord in giving us new scripture by receiving them by covenant. When we live the law of consecration, we sustain each other in whatever order or system is currently in place.

 

When you seek financial disclosure because you feel you cannot sustain the stewardship without it, you might be forgetting that common consent in this case is not about sustaining a stewardship but about sustaining the prophets in doing “all things” relative to their stewardships, which are given them of the Lord.

 

For the record, the scriptures on common consent do not say that we sustain a leader in doing all things relative to their stewardship (though I understand that to be your interpretation).  It says that all things are done by common consent in the church.

 

I sustain the Brethren.  But I can't sustain their actions relative to church finances because I have absolutely no idea what those are.

[thesometimesaint]

Temple assessments are still done.  Though I'm not sure if they are still called that.  My sister and brother-in-law were recently asked to donate by their Bishop after the temple was announced in their area.

 

At the Ward level we don't pay for the everyday running of the Temple.

[rockpond]

At the Ward level we don't pay for the everyday running of the Temple.

 

Is that what a temple assessment is?  Interesting.  I'd never heard of that.

[ERayR]

Temple assessments are still done.

 

 I have not heard of temple assessments.  I have lived in two areas where new temples were built and never heard of a temple assessment.

[rockpond]

 I have not heard of temple assessments.  I have lived in two areas where new temples were built and never heard of a temple assessment.

 

The example I cited (my sister & her husband) was for the Newport CA temple.

[cdowis]

 I have not heard of temple assessments.  I have lived in two areas where new temples were built and never heard of a temple assessment.

 

We had one for the building of the Atlanta temple.   I also think we needed to have a certain number of family names for temple ordinances reserved.

Edited August 20, 2014 by cdowis