Mormonchallenges.Org: A New Site For Lds Dealing With Challenging Questions?

[changed]

... It only offered the solution to simply just "choose to believe". When someone is faced with newly found facts from church history or doctrines, they want answers and none were given (at least in this video, maybe there are more to come)....

At some point in life I think it does come down to a choice though. Whatever choice you make you can create reasonable scenarios to support your convictions, so it really does come down to a personal choice of what to pursue.

[wenglund]

or analogous to a steady diet of cigars, martinis & living to be 100. truth as shown by George Burns...

;0)

Correct...that is, if you were hoping to demonstrate the exceptions that prove the rule.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Brian 2.0]

I agree. This is how I felt at the end. It only offered the solution to simply just "choose to believe". When someone is faced with newly found facts from church history or doctrines, they want answers and none were given (at least in this video, maybe there are more to come).

While I agree with what you are saying but I also believe its accurate for a lot of people. The "issues" at first seem like they have no answers. Like there is no way to believe without dismissing the issues. Apologetics provide a space where you can say, "if you want to believe it here's how you can while making it reconcile." And in the video this guy chose to believe based upon his further research he did looking at the "good" websites.

What I didn't care for was the admonition to "continue to study it until you come to a conclusion that its true, then take it to the Lord for confirmation." It just provides no space for disbelief. What happens if someone studies and comes to a conclusion it's not true? Just keep studying? Forever?

[changed]

What happens if someone studies and comes to a conclusion it's not true? Just keep studying? Forever?

I don't think anyone is in possession of "the whole truth and nothing but the truth" in this life, it is a life-long study.... that said, there are some resources that are better to study from than others... if you want to learn how to make apple pie, is it best to learn from someone who isn't a chef and has never made pie before in their life? or is it better to learn from someone who knows what they are doing? There are a billion ways to get it wrong - salt instead of sugar, burnt crust, etc. etc. ... why waste time looking at all the bad examples of it, when you could instead spend your time seeking resources that are "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy". Life is short, time is precious.

Edited February 22, 2013 by changed

[Brian 2.0]

.... that said, there are some resources that are better to study from than others... if you want to learn how to make apple pie, is it best to learn from someone who isn't a chef and has never made pie before in their life? or is it better to learn from someone who knows what they are doing? There are a billion ways to get it wrong - salt instead of sugar, burnt crust, etc. etc. ... why waste time looking at all the bad examples of it, when you could instead spend your time seeking resources that are "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy".

I agree. And I hope you are not putting non-LDS Egyptologists in "bad sources" category. Using your pie analogy, the "chefs" or good sources would be accomplished Egpytologists (both LDS and non-LDS). And both should be looked at in my opinion.

[changed]

I agree. And I hope you are not putting non-LDS Egyptologists in "bad sources" category. Using your pie analogy, the "chefs" or good sources would be accomplished Egpytologists (both LDS and non-LDS). And both should be looked at in my opinion.

Yes, of coarse - although I'm not really interested in the physical recipe book, I'm more interested in the actual pie that you can create with it... I trust the book because I've tasted the pie and I know for myself it's good - not because someone with some degree has decreed it to be good....

I don't care how many certificates you have up on your wall, if you've never actually made the pie, you're not a good reference source imo.

Edited February 22, 2013 by changed

[Brian 2.0]

Yes, of coarse - although I'm not really interested in the physical recipe book, I'm more interested in the actual pie that you can create with it... I trust the book because I've tasted the pie and I know for myself it's good - not because someone with some degree has decreed it to be good....

I don't care how many certificates you have up on your wall, if you've never actually made the pie, you're not a good reference source imo.

I get what you are saying, and I think we are just talking about two different things. I am not trying to make any type of value judgment or usefulness of the BoA (the pie). I am talking about question regarding the physical book. To further the analogy, the pie-recipe book claims to have been written by Julia Child and it contains her pie recipe that her mother made for her as a child... the pie may taste fantastic regardless... but I'm asking questions regarding the source... was the book written by Julia Child or was it not. One can argue the usefulness of asking such a question, but the question is still a valid one.

[changed]

... One can argue the usefulness of asking such a question....

indeed... what's that saying? the proof's in the pie? something like that

[Brian 2.0]

indeed... what's that saying? the proof's in the pie? something like that

But what if I have devoted my life to only eating pies from recipes concocted by Julia Child? Knowing if Julia Child actually wrote the recipe then becomes important.

p.s. this analogy is fun. probably more fun than useful, but still fun.

[changed]

But what if I have devoted my life to only eating pies from recipes concocted by Julia Child?

If you have devoted your entire life to only one pie, I would think you need to get out more, and broaden your palate - but would be happy that at least you have made the step of actually eating the pie (too many people seem convinced that you can't make your pie and eat it too, and so miss the entire point of the thing .

[cinepro]

I did like how they focused on The Book of Abraham as The Issue for Justin. It is certainly my observation that that is the nail in the coffin for many doubting guys.

I can't wait for the sequel: "Alone 2: Jessica Reads 'In Sacred Loneliness"

[changed]

'In Sacred Loneliness"

(Book of Mormon | Alma 34:10 - 12)

10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.

12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.

I hesitate in posting this... if you have never loved anyone, if you do not know, or can not imagine the incredible amount of pain of infidelity because you have never truly loved anyone - then I pray that the shame of never having loved might keep those who read this from making a mockery of what I'm about to say, because making a mockery of this is worse than making a mockery of the death of Christ, because it is a sacrifice that is greater than the death of Christ.

there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement .... the horrific death of our innocent beautiful Savior is so humbling that most never dare realize that there was more than this, that his Sacrifice was part of a greater sacrifice, a greater sacrifice that goes unseen by most because it is so painful and horrible... but an infinite and eternal sacrifice is what was required to redeem the horrors of this earth, and that is what was given. Infinite and eternal means this sacrifice encompassed the most painful thing anyone could ever go through, and that involves breaking the most sacred bond that exists. For the rest of this, I'm just going to quote from Sr. Holland, and I pray that those who need it will understand it, and that those who are not yet ready for it will remain in confusion and will not be able to mock it.

from link

I have never questioned why our mother in heaven seems veiled to us, for I believe the Lord has his reasons for revealing as little as he has on that subject. Furthermore, I believe we know much more about our eternal nature than we think we do; and it is our sacred obligation to express our knowledge, to teach it to our young sisters and daughters, and in so doing to strengthen their faith and help them through the counterfeit confusions of these difficult latter days....

The Lord has not placed us in this lone and dreary world without a blueprint for living. In Doctrine and Covenants 52, we read the Lord’s words: “I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived.” (D&C 52:14 He has given us patterns in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price; and he has given us patterns in the temple ceremony. As we study these patterns, we must continually ask, “Why does the Lord choose to say these particular words and present it in just this way?” We know he uses metaphors and symbols and parables and allegories to teach us of his eternal ways. We have all recognized the relationship between Abraham and Isaac that so parallels God’s anguish over the sacrifice of his son, Jesus Christ. But, as women, do we stretch ourselves and also ask about Sarah’s travail in this experience as well? We need to search in this manner, and we need always to look for deeper meaning. We should look for parallels and symbols. We should look for themes and motifs such as those we would find in a Bach or a Mozart composition, and we should look for repeated patterns.

Genesis 16:1 NOW Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

2 Nephi 2:11For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things.... - all things - not just death - a sacrifice of death was the price paid for life.... consider what sacrifice was made that we might have the privilege of being eternally sealed.... the price paid for all that is good seems to be suffering through the experience of the opposite of all that is good.

I don't want to leave anyone who understands the implications of the above on that horrible note, so I will post some other scriptures:

Isaiah 54:1 SING, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

(New Testament | Galatians 4:27 - 31)

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

I just started reading through this and I do not want to suggest that it contains all the answers, only to put it forth as one example of some of the many resources you can go to for further light and knowledge. Like our Savior and our God, She also goes by many names - when you learn Her names, your own set of scriptures take on new meaning.

Mosiah 8:20 O how marvelous are the works of the Lord, and how long doth he suffer with his people; yea, and how blind and impenetrable are the understandings of the children of men; for they will not seek wisdom, neither do they desire that she should rule over them!

To those who seek wisdom, I'm sorry that more cannot be shared, but know the depths of the sacrifices you will find are paralleled by the depths of the glory and joy you will find too.

I hope I have not overstepped my bounds here, may those who are not supposed to understand, not understand, and if this post gets deleted I will understand and I apologize.

Edited February 23, 2013 by changed

[Five Solas]

Correct...that is, if you were hoping to demonstrate the exceptions that prove the rule.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

not exactly. my real hope was to leverage your analogy to demonstrate D&C 89's hidden exception clause.

;0)

[MormonMason]

Correct...that is, if you were hoping to demonstrate the exceptions that prove the rule.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It may not be an exception. He died of cardiac arrest. How much older could he have lived to have been if he hadn't done all that?

[Five Solas]

It may not be an exception. He died of cardiac arrest. How much older could he have lived to have been if he hadn't done all that?

You omit the no-less-likely possibility George wouldn't have lived as long.

If we assume causality

--Erik

[MormonMason]

You omit the no-less-likely possibility George wouldn't have lived as long.

If we assume causality

--Erik

If he had never drunk at all he would not have been as much at risk. Did you even read the original paper that was the source of the article? The risk is greater for those who start and then stop later in life than for those who never did it at all. If we assume causality...

P.S.: Even the writer of the article summary was of the opinion that the paper was "worthless guff."

Edited February 25, 2013 by MormonMason

[Five Solas]

If he had never drunk at all he would not have been as much at risk. Did you even read the original paper that was the source of the article? The risk is greater for those who start and then stop later in life than for those who never did it at all. If we assume causality...

P.S.: Even the writer of the article summary was of the opinion that the paper was "worthless guff."

I introduce you to El Reg & Lewis Page and this is the thanks I get?!?

Okay, maybe you're not in IT, in which case I probably owe an apology. Please accept!

[mormonresponse]

Thanks BCSpace. Excited to watch these videos! We need more Latter-day Saints on YouTube promoting the LDS faith and answering these "Mormon challenges" in a quality manner.

We've tried to get a start on that, with videos dealing with topics such as Polygamy, Jesus & Satan being brothers, Mormons worshipping a "different" Jesus, etc. So far many videos have been there to answer anti-Mormon claims, but not to answer to the anti's, but the members of the church and non-members who hear such things.

www.youtube.com/mormonresponse

[BCSpace]

Thanks BCSpace. Excited to watch these videos! We need more Latter-day Saints on YouTube promoting the LDS faith and answering these "Mormon challenges" in a quality manner.

We've tried to get a start on that, with videos dealing with topics such as Polygamy, Jesus & Satan being brothers, Mormons worshipping a "different" Jesus, etc. So far many videos have been there to answer anti-Mormon claims, but not to answer to the anti's, but the members of the church and non-members who hear such things.

www.youtube.com/mormonresponse

And thank you for your work on mormonresponse.

[CASteinman]

I need some help here --

Is the Book of Abraham really a big problem for a lot of people? I mean this in this way -- I have no problems with it at all. Can't imagine it being false. But if this is becoming some sort of big problem -- do I need to learn about it and get smart on stuff so that I can answer questions?

[Tacenda]

I need some help here --

Is the Book of Abraham really a big problem for a lot of people? I mean this in this way -- I have no problems with it at all. Can't imagine it being false. But if this is becoming some sort of big problem -- do I need to learn about it and get smart on stuff so that I can answer questions?

Yes, what's going on, are you lagging behind here CA, step it up.

[CASteinman]

Yes, what's going on, are you lagging behind here CA, step it up.

Hahah. OK, maybe what I am wondering about is something like this -- is there some reasonably well done poll that shows the Book of Abraham is causing people to fall away?

Cause really, in my experience its been more a matter of laziness or hurt feelings more than anything else.

[followerofemmanuel]

Thanks BCSpace. Excited to watch these videos! We need more Latter-day Saints on YouTube promoting the LDS faith and answering these "Mormon challenges" in a quality manner.

We've tried to get a start on that, with videos dealing with topics such as Polygamy, Jesus & Satan being brothers, Mormons worshipping a "different" Jesus, etc. So far many videos have been there to answer anti-Mormon claims, but not to answer to the anti's, but the members of the church and non-members who hear such things.

www.youtube.com/mormonresponse

I think the video's are helpful for investigators too. There is so much information to process when trying to understand LDS beliefs and history and of course there are many opinions out there. After hearing and struggling myself with the first vision and different versions, I think it is helpful to hear LDS perspectives on the subject. Looks like info is coming soon. I look forward to it.