Critics Accusations Of Financial Improprieties

[CV75]

Well you have no material knowledge of the general church budget. You may have knowledge that the church is building and maintaining meeting houses, temples, mission homes, offices, etc but you do not know what the overall budget is in terms of the amount of funds that flow in vs how they are divided spent/saved.

You simply do not know that! I think the discussion should pick up where I asked my last question--can you reply to that?

[rockpond]

You simply do not know that! I think the discussion should pick up where I asked my last question--can you reply to that?

I'm happy to answer your questions as long as you will extend that same courtesy to me.

I don't know if wonder is a function of faith or knowledge. I think it could be either depending on what one is wondering about.

So what material knowledge of the general church budget do you have?

[CV75]

I don't know if wonder is a function of faith or knowledge. I think it could be either depending on what one is wondering about.

I think the term “wonder,” in the sense you were using it, has more to do with conjecture, which reflects doubt stimulated by ignorance even though faith stimulated by observation is just as accessible.

 

So what material knowledge of the general church budget do you have?

I’m not sure how my personal or "material"  knowledge (I'm certainly no expert) of a general church budget is germane to anyone’s conjecture, the title of this thread, the principles governing Church finances (see Elder Bednar’s talk at https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/the-windows-of-heaven?lang=en), or to the underlying issue of common consent as I’ve explained it.

[rockpond]

I’m not sure how my personal or "material"  knowledge (I'm certainly no expert) of a general church budget is germane to anyone’s conjecture, the title of this thread, the principles governing Church finances (see Elder Bednar’s talk at https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/the-windows-of-heaven?lang=en), or to the underlying issue of common consent as I’ve explained it.

 

Note that you have, again, avoided actually answering my question.  As I said, I will answer your questions if you extend that courtesy to me.

 

To your point here, I quote you from the previous page:

 

"In response to your question, “How would you know if what they are doing is directed by the Lord and in accordance with scriptural principles and processes?” I said, “I am satisfied that I “do [know] that”, by my temporal and spiritual senses picking up the evidences that abound." While faith and knowledge have a relationship in understanding both temporal and spiritual things, my reply was describing my knowledge, not my faith. And sharing your critique or assessment of the quality of my knowledge has no bearing on the discussion either -- you might as well say I have great knowledge (or that I don’t)!"

 

That is how your knowledge of the church budget entered the discussion.

 

It's relevance to my point is that one cannot consent to something that they don't know.

[CV75]

Note that you have, again, avoided actually answering my question.  As I said, I will answer your questions if you extend that courtesy to me.

 

To your point here, I quote you from the previous page:

 

"In response to your question, “How would you know if what they are doing is directed by the Lord and in accordance with scriptural principles and processes?” I said, “I am satisfied that I “do [know] that”, by my temporal and spiritual senses picking up the evidences that abound." While faith and knowledge have a relationship in understanding both temporal and spiritual things, my reply was describing my knowledge, not my faith. And sharing your critique or assessment of the quality of my knowledge has no bearing on the discussion either -- you might as well say I have great knowledge (or that I don’t)!"

 

That is how your knowledge of the church budget entered the discussion.

 

It's relevance to my point is that one cannot consent to something that they don't know.

My comment doesn’t speak to the Church general budget but to how Church finances are managed by the brethren as “directed by the Lord and in accordance with scriptural principles and processes.”

 

Whether my knowledge about a “general budget” you mention is “material” to you is an example of how you critique / assess the quality of my knowledge, which has no bearing on the discussion (and the discussion is not about me). Your question is more about me than about someone consenting to something he does not know. So I don't see it as relevant. My questions have to do with the discussion at hand and with issues you brought up.

[rockpond]

My comment doesn’t speak to the Church general budget but to how Church finances are managed by the brethren as “directed by the Lord and in accordance with scriptural principles and processes.”

 

Whether my knowledge about a “general budget” you mention is “material” to you is an example of how you critique / assess the quality of my knowledge, which has no bearing on the discussion (and the discussion is not about me). Your question is more about me than about someone consenting to something he does not know. So I don't see it as relevant. My questions have to do with the discussion at hand and with issues you brought up.

 

 

You have faith in the process.  You don't actually know what the budget is.  True or false?

[CV75]

You have faith in the process.  You don't actually know what the budget is.  True or false?

Your question is too incomplete for me to be able to answer fairly. That is the trouble with making things personal and not principles-based. It would have been more balanced for you to state, “You have faith in and knowledge of the process and the outputs and outcomes of it.” But even that might be considered incomplete without a scripturally-based analysis of what is to be considered the process, outputs and outcomes. I’m not avoiding your question; it just isn’t a well thought-out or valid question.

[rockpond]

Your question is too incomplete for me to be able to answer fairly. That is the trouble with making things personal and not principles-based. It would have been more balanced for you to state, “You have faith in and knowledge of the process and the outputs and outcomes of it.” But even that might be considered incomplete without a scripturally-based analysis of what is to be considered the process, outputs and outcomes. I’m not avoiding your question; it just isn’t a well thought-out or valid question.

 

I have explained my principle and scripture based position.  I am currently trying to understand yours.  The question was actually quite simple and straightforward.  The fact that you refuse to answer tells me what I need to know.

[CV75]

I have explained my principle and scripture based position.  I am currently trying to understand yours.

My position is that the principle of common consent does not apply to budgets, nor does  its rightful exercise relyt on the presentation of budgets, and I thought you already understood that.

[rockpond]

My position is that the principle of common consent does not apply to budgets, nor does  its rightful exercise relyt on the presentation of budgets, and I thought you already understood that.

 

I do.  I was trying to understand your claim to "knowledge".  But I'm done since you continually avoid my questions making reasonable dialogue impossible.

[CV75]

I do.  I was trying to understand your claim to "knowledge".  But I'm done since you continually avoid my questions making reasonable dialogue impossible.

I never claimed material knowledge of a general church budget, so your question is not reasonable. That does not mean I don't possess such knowledge, only that I don't recognize your question as reasonably supporting the exchange we've been having. Knowing there is a general church budget doesn't make the principle of common consent, or anyone's ability to act upon it, any more perfect.

[rockpond]

I never claimed material knowledge of a general church budget, so your question is not reasonable. That does not mean I don't possess such knowledge, only that I don't recognize your question as reasonably supporting the exchange we've been having. Knowing there is a general church budget doesn't make the principle of common consent, or anyone's ability to act upon it, any more perfect.

 

You claimed "to know"... I was trying to understand what that knowledge encompasses.  And even now you continue to be vague about it saying "I never claimed material knowledge... That does not mean I don't possess such..."  But, I no longer care so don't try to answer now.  I'm not interested in talking in circles with you.

 

Again, one cannot consent to something that one does not know.  If church membership does not know what the general budget is, than they cannot be giving their consent on church finances.

Edited September 16, 2014 by rockpond

[Tacenda]

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/audio-files-from-the-2014-salt-lake-symposium/

 

# 372: "SHOW US OUR MONEY: THE MOVEMENT FOR LDS FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE AND ACCOUNTABILITY (MICHAEL J. STEVENS, WILL BAGLEY, TIMMY CHOU, RON MADSON, LORI LEVAR PIERCE"

 

Rockpond might appreciate this podcast.  Pretty interesting so far, now if D. Michael Quinn were on the panel, it'd get real interesting since he is supposedly coming out with a book about church's finances.   

 

Added: 

 

Ron Madson's presentation was my favorite.  He writes on a blog called "The Mormon Worker" (I like this one):  http://themormonworker.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/a-may-day-reading-of-matthew-25/ and works at the Liahona Children's Foundation.  Of which I've just now donated and that donation will feed 10 children for a year, yay!  So I can say I tithe now, just not to a corporation.   

 

He said that there are between 90-120 thousand malnourished children who are LDS and what is needed is 4.6 million to feed them, whether food or supplements.   The kingdom is in that, not brick and mortar.  We need the fish and loaf model, not the corporate one.        

 

He said that for all those that say it's the "Lords Money", Matt 25 tells us when it becomes the Lords money and that's when it's in the hands of the poor, or oppressed, the hireling or the widow.  

 

 

Matt 25

 

¹Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

²And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

³They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

⁴But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

⁵While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

⁶And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

⁷Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

⁸And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

⁹But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

¹⁰And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

¹¹Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

¹²But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

¹³Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

¹⁴For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

¹⁵And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

¹⁶Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

¹⁷And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

¹⁸But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

¹⁹After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

²⁰And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

²¹His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

²²He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

²³His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

²⁴Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

²⁵And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

²⁶His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

²⁷Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

²⁸Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

²⁹For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

³⁰And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

³¹When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

³²And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

³³And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

³⁵For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

³⁶Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

³⁷Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

³⁸When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

³⁹Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

⁴⁰And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

⁴¹Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

⁴²For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

⁴³I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

⁴⁴Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

⁴⁵Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

⁴⁶And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

 

And he mentioned the D&C passages....

 

D&C 26:2  And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

 

D&C 104:71 Money from the treasury was to be spent only with the common consent of the members of the order. There was to be no unrighteous dominion in the work of the Lord. If the Lord’s properties were managed properly, it was probable that the treasury would eventually have a large amount of money in it. Such funds, used for righteous purposes, could truly bless all members of the order.

 

And the law of tithing:  Malachi 3-10  Which according to Ron Madson we have backwards.... the robbing was done by the Priests who were amassing land and building edifices! 

"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years. "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty. "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty. But you ask, 'How are we to return?' "Will a man rob G-d? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows."

 

 

And last but not least....if you want to sign a petition for more transparency here it is:   http://bycommonconsent.org/signatures/

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2014 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/audio-files-from-the-2014-salt-lake-symposium/

 

# 372: "SHOW US OUR MONEY: THE MOVEMENT FOR LDS FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE AND ACCOUNTABILITY (MICHAEL J. STEVENS, WILL BAGLEY, TIMMY CHOU, RON MADSON, LORI LEVAR PIERCE"

 

Rockpond might appreciate this podcast.  Pretty interesting so far, now if D. Michael Quinn were on the panel, it'd get real interesting since he is supposedly coming out with a book about church's finances.   

 

 

The problem with this statement:  "SHOW US OUR MONEY: is that it is incorrect.  Once assets (money etc) are donated it is no longer the property of the doner but becomes property of the donee.

[rockpond]

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/audio-files-from-the-2014-salt-lake-symposium/

 

# 372: "SHOW US OUR MONEY: THE MOVEMENT FOR LDS FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE AND ACCOUNTABILITY (MICHAEL J. STEVENS, WILL BAGLEY, TIMMY CHOU, RON MADSON, LORI LEVAR PIERCE"

 

Rockpond might appreciate this podcast.  Pretty interesting so far, now if D. Michael Quinn were on the panel, it'd get real interesting since he is supposedly coming out with a book about church's finances.   

 

 

Thanks, Tacenda.

[rockpond]

The problem with this statement:  "SHOW US OUR MONEY: is that it is incorrect.  Once assets (money etc) are donated it is no longer the property of the doner but becomes property of the donee.

 

Define your interpretation of "the donee" in the case of tithes & offerings.

Edited September 17, 2014 by rockpond

[ERayR]

Define your interpretation of "the donee" in the case of tithes & offerings.

 

It is simple the donee is the one who receives a donation.  Tithes and offerings are donations. 

[CV75]

You claimed "to know"... I was trying to understand what that knowledge encompasses.  And even now you continue to be vague about it saying "I never claimed material knowledge... That does not mean I don't possess such..."  But, I no longer care so don't try to answer now.  I'm not interested in talking in circles with you.

 

Again, one cannot consent to something that one does not know.  If church membership does not know what the general budget is, than they cannot be giving their consent on church finances.

I am satisfied that do know… If my comments seem vague to you, it may have something to do with how vague (too many definitions that can be interpreted differently) your question seems to me, especially as far as its relevance to the topic. For example, my knowledge doesn’t trump Elder Bednar’s in the talk I linked. If his claim to knowledge isn’t an acceptable response to your question (I’m not saying that’s the case), I don’t expect mine to be. And if his claim is acceptable, then you don’t need mine.

 

Of course one cannot consent to something one hasn’t the power to consent to, and knowledge is one form or aspect of power. But power comes in other forms as well, and is not always for the taking. Common consent is an example of that. It is power the Lord grants and recognizes to the saints to approve (receive, accept, support, sustain) others in taking those positions to which He has called them. It is not power granted to the saints to approve church budgets or otherwise operate the Church.

 

But now that you brought it, someone can certainly consent to something he has faith in (and we know faith is a principle of power). This another basis upon which the principle of common consent works.

[rockpond]

I am satisfied that do know… If my comments seem vague to you, it may have something to do with how vague (too many definitions that can be interpreted differently) your question seems to me, especially as far as its relevance to the topic. For example, my knowledge doesn’t trump Elder Bednar’s in the talk I linked. If his claim to knowledge isn’t an acceptable response to your question (I’m not saying that’s the case), I don’t expect mine to be. And if his claim is acceptable, then you don’t need mine.

 

Of course one cannot consent to something one hasn’t the power to consent to, and knowledge is one form or aspect of power. But power comes in other forms as well, and is not always for the taking. Common consent is an example of that. It is power the Lord grants and recognizes to the saints to approve (receive, accept, support, sustain) others in taking those positions to which He has called them. It is not power granted to the saints to approve church budgets or otherwise operate the Church.

 

But now that you brought it, someone can certainly consent to something he has faith in (and we know faith is a principle of power). This another basis upon which the principle of common consent works.

 

A belief in someone else's knowledge sounds more like faith to me.  Definitely not knowledge.

[rockpond]

It is simple the donee is the one who receives a donation.  Tithes and offerings are donations. 

 

Every Sunday I am handed donation envelopes from ward members that I then place in the left breast pocket of my suit coat.  I clearly receive the donations but I don't think I qualify as the "donee" in this case.

 

So, for LDS tithes & offerings, who do you interpret to be the "donee"?

[ERayR]

Every Sunday I am handed donation envelopes from ward members that I then place in the left breast pocket of my suit coat.  I clearly receive the donations but I don't think I qualify as the "donee" in this case.

 

So, for LDS tithes & offerings, who do you interpret to be the "donee"?

 

You are correct you are not the donee.  The donation slip clearly states the donation is to The COJCOLDS.  You, by virtue off your position, are authorized to receive donations from the doner for the donee. 

[rockpond]

You are correct you are not the donee.  The donation slip clearly states the donation is to The COJCOLDS.  You, by virtue off your position, are authorized to receive donations from the doner for the donee. 

 

Exactly.  And who is the COJCOLDS?  Well, that's us.  All 15 million members.

[ERayR]

Exactly.  And who is the COJCOLDS?  Well, that's us.  All 15 million members.

 

Look at the entity where those deposits are made.

[rockpond]

Look at the entity where those deposits are made.

Are you suggesting that there is an entity apart from the church that takes those donations?

[CV75]

A belief in someone else's knowledge sounds more like faith to me.  Definitely not knowledge.

But you will believe (or not) what I tell you, which is part of the irrelevance of your question.