Critics Accusations Of Financial Improprieties

[ERayR]

If the church wants to make some points here and at least clarify to critics of their monetary allocations they should be more forthcoming.  Wouldn't you like to have one day where they don't call City Creek, the Jesus Mall?  If there is nothing to hide then what is the big deal? 

 

You worry too much about what the critics and antis think and say.  Insert something about great and spacious buildings here.

[Storm Rider]

If the church wants to make some points here and at least clarify to critics of their monetary allocations they should be more forthcoming.  Wouldn't you like to have one day where they don't call City Creek, the Jesus Mall?  If there is nothing to hide then what is the big deal? 

 

According to your logic there would never be any privacy for anyone on anything because if there was not something to hide, what would be the big deal?  I don't live in Utah and I have never heard the moniker "Jesus Mall", but I can imagine the kind of people who use this term in the worst possible manner.  

 

I belong to an old school where my business is my business and not any of yours; your business is your business and it is not any of mine.  Those people who think it is their calling to know everyone's business were welcome to go down the street and visit someone who cared to talk to them, but at my house, I am not interested in the snake oil they are selling. 

[Sleeper Cell]

Second, like everybody else, LDS members should consider the wise stewardship of their financial resources a moral obligation.  Being a wise steward entails only donating money to transparent churches and charities, and making sure that you are okay with how that church or charity handles its finances. 

 

The fact of the matter is that there are many churches and charities that aren’t financially transparent.  Dave Ramsey often comments about this on his radio show and says if a church or charity doesn’t want to be financially transparent that’s fine; that’s their right.  But he follows up by saying that it is his right to choose not to donate to financially opaque organizations, and that he never does, and that he never will. 

 

 

LDS members do consider wise stewardship of their financial resources to be a moral obligation.  They also believe that wise stewardship of their financial resources includes following God’s commandments.  And that God’s commandments trump secular financial advice, no matter how wise it may be.  And that they are ultimately answerable to God for how they handle their stewardships, not to a radio host.  

 

Let’s cut to the chase.  Suppose I had major disagreements on how tithing money was spent.  Suppose further that I had knowledge that tithing money was being embezzled or that a third party stole some of it because Church officials failed to take elementary security precautions. Suppose that I even believed that high church officials were living in obscene luxury financed by tithing.  Would I still tithe, simply because I believe it is a commandment of God?  Well, I have had some disagreements on how tithing is spent. I do believe that over the years, there have been instances of tithing funds being embezzled. (IIRC, during the 1970s, someone was convicted for doing this).  And I have first hand knowledge of an instance of  third party theft of tithing donations due to the negligence  of a bishop and/or one of his counselors. Yet, I did not stop tithing.  Perhaps some might consider me an unwise steward, but, again, I am not answerable to them for my stewardship.  . 

 

BTW, I wonder if Ramsey would have made a donation to support the mortal ministry of Jesus and his disciples?  That ministry would probably not have met his criteria of transparency, as I doubt that any books were kept at all, let alone made open to the public.  

 

Every organization that is financially opaque has its excuses: the public wouldn’t understand, it would be distracting to the work, etc.  All of those organizations ask people to trust them based on blind trust, emotions, prayer, etc.  Many of these organizations actually spend the money they collect very differently than what their donors assume.

 

The LDS Church puts its members who are wise financial stewards in an awkward, compromising situation.  It solicits donations without giving the people from whom it solicits the information necessary to do so as wise stewards who trust, but verify.  Putting people in this type of compromising situation is not of the highest ethics.

Ultimately, for LDS members, tithing is an act of religious faith, not merely an act of charitable giving.  Giving with the attitude of “trust but verify” is, at best, a mixture of religious faith and secular faith. 

 

The “information necessary to do so” is revelation from God that I should do so.  I understand that you might consider this to be an “excuse” or an instance of “blind faith.“ But then we would be discussing matters of religious faith, not of ethics.  

[JAHS]

The money I give as tithing is not my hard earned money. It belongs to God. The rest of the money I have is hard earned money and I am careful how I spend it. It's not as though we are shareholders in a company that has to report all the financials to us.  I trust the people who manage and spend the tithing I donate. I know who they are. I know the kind of lives the General Authorities have had to live to get in the positions they are in now. They are sincere honest people who are there to serve God and there fellow man, not to serve themselves.  Usually the only people who really want to know exactly where the money is going are church critics or those who are beginning to distance themselves from the Church and are looking for reasons to justify their leaving. Most of the faithful members simply trust those who are in charge and therefore really don't feel a need to know. If they were told what all the numbers were they would probably say, "Oh, that's interesting!" and then think no more about it. They understand that once the money leaves their hands, they have done their duty in obeying the commandment of God. 

[Jeanne]

You worry too much about what the critics and antis think and say.  Insert something about great and spacious buildings here.

I don't worry ..it is just that if possible, step outside the box alittle bit and the critics have no other way to look at it.  The church sits on a fence when they start serving coffee too.  Perhaps I am in the wrong generation.

[ERayR]

I don't worry ..it is just that if possible, step outside the box alittle bit and the critics have no other way to look at it.  The church sits on a fence when they start serving coffee too.  Perhaps I am in the wrong generation.

 

The critic don't really care what way it goes.  Financial statements are merely something to try and incite opposition.  If it were not financial statements it would be something else.  It is a way to get there nose in where it does not belong.  As I said in a previous post insert something here about great and spacious building.

[omni]

According to your logic there would never be any privacy for anyone on anything because if there was not something to hide, what would be the big deal?  I don't live in Utah and I have never heard the moniker "Jesus Mall", but I can imagine the kind of people who use this term in the worst possible manner.  

 

I belong to an old school where my business is my business and not any of yours; your business is your business and it is not any of mine.  Those people who think it is their calling to know everyone's business were welcome to go down the street and visit someone who cared to talk to them, but at my house, I am not interested in the snake oil they are selling. 

 

My bishop sure seems to want to know my business every December around tithing settlement and every other year when it was time to renew my TR.

[ERayR]

My bishop sure seems to want to know my business every December around tithing settlement and every other year when it was time to renew my TR.

 

False. and a blatant falsehood at that.  All he asks is: Is this a full tithe?  You answer is either yes or no.  Nothing about your business.

[Calm]

Jeanne,

There is nothing inherently sinful or wrong in drinking coffee. We don't do it because we have made covenants not to, but others have not nor have we made a covenant not to give it to others if they want it.

[sdc999]

I've stated this before.  I'm not for the LDS church opening their books - solely.  I'm for all non profits to open their books.   

 

 

Tax exempt organizations are asking to be absolved from financially supporting the country.  I think the country should have a right to see proof as to why.  Corruption, intended or unintended can happen anywhere.  

 

Sure, critics will try to pick apart any entity, especially one that has held its secrets so close to the vest for so long.    

 

Can't talk about the Temple.  Is it secret, no it 'sacred'.  Can't talk about financials.  Is it sacred, no it's secret.

[omni]

False. and a blatant falsehood at that.  All he asks is: Is this a full tithe?  You answer is either yes or no.  Nothing about your business.

 

It's absolutely my business, and should be between me and God.  What about the TR questions, are those getting in my business?

[sdc999]

False. and a blatant falsehood at that.  All he asks is: Is this a full tithe?  You answer is either yes or no.  Nothing about your business.

So, you are calling Omni a LIAR?   I have been quizzed beyond the yes or no answer before.  Maybe you have just been blessed with perfect bishops all of your life.  

[ERayR]

I've stated this before.  I'm not for the LDS church opening their books - solely.  I'm for all non profits to open their books.   

 

 

Tax exempt organizations are asking to be absolved from financially supporting the country.  I think the country should have a right to see proof as to why.  Corruption, intended or unintended can happen anywhere.  

 

Sure, critics will try to pick apart any entity, especially one that has held its secrets so close to the vest for so long.    

 

Can't talk about the Temple.  Is it secret, no it 'sacred'.  Can't talk about financials.  Is it sacred, no it's secret.

 

OK open up your books right here and now.  How much did you donate to the LDS Church last year?  How much did you donate to other charities last year?

 

Tax exempt organizations help defray governmental expenses with their charities much more than the tax they would have paid.

[ERayR]

So, you are calling Omni a LIAR?   I have been quizzed beyond the yes or no answer before.  Maybe you have just been blessed with perfect bishops all of your life.  

 

I know what the tithing settlement question is.  Just one question:  Is this a full tithe? 

[sdc999]

OK open up your books right here and now.  How much did you donate to the LDS Church last year?  How much did you donate to other charities last year?

 

Tax exempt organizations help defray governmental expenses with their charities much more than the tax they would have paid.

Well, for one, I'm not tax exempt so just shy of about 20k to the gov't for taxes.  Not quite that much to local charities but I am well received at their  auctions.

How about you?

[sdc999]

False. and a blatant falsehood at that.  All he asks is: Is this a full tithe?  You answer is either yes or no.  Nothing about your business.

 

 

I know what the tithing settlement question is.  Just one question:  Is this a full tithe? 

but that is not what you said.  You are correct only and only if the bishop sticks to the script.  Most probably do but some do not.  You said all he asks, to omni, is that one question.  Were you in the room? Maybe he inquired more.  You said 'false. and a blatant falsehood at that.'  That infers that you are saying omni lied.

[sdc999]

 

Tax exempt organizations help defray governmental expenses with their charities much more than the tax they would have paid.

I agree that most do.  But not all.   

[ERayR]

Well, for one, I'm not tax exempt so just shy of about 20k to the gov't for taxes.  Not quite that much to local charities but I am well received at their  auctions.

How about you?

 

I give according to my means.  But I am not the one clamoring for disclosure.

[sdc999]

I give according to my means.  But I am not the one clamoring for disclosure.

Great for you.  I'm not clamoring for disclosure from individuals.  I'm clamoring for disclosure from churches and businesses that claim tax exemptions.  

[Sleeper Cell]

I don't worry ..it is just that if possible, step outside the box alittle bit and the critics have no other way to look at it.  The church sits on a fence when they start serving coffee too.  Perhaps I am in the wrong generation.

Actually, “the critics” do have other ways to look at it.  Unfortunately, some of them always seem to insist on the worst possible interpretation. 

[Sleeper Cell]

It's absolutely my business, and should be between me and God.  What about the TR questions, are those getting in my business?

Then why did you go to tithing settlement in the first place?  And why ask for a TR if you object to the TR questions?  

[ERayR]

What about the TR questions, are those getting in my business?

 

If you are requesting a pass into the temples of God it is very much the business of the one whose job it is to determine your worthiness.   

[cdowis]

CFR

 

Read their biographies.

[Gervin]

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Edited August 10, 2014 by Gervin

[cdowis]

It's absolutely my business, and should be between me and God.  What about the TR questions, are those getting in my business?

 

God has given him that responsibility.  

 

The bishop is the judge in Israel, and he only "gets in your business"  by invitation for the TR interview, or where there is evidence of misconduct affecting your church membership.  Otherwise it is between you and the Creator.

Edited August 10, 2014 by cdowis