ChristKnight Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Looking at pictures of the newly remodeled Ogden Temple, I was wondering: what are the origins of the designing of the temple baptismal fonts as being on the backs of 12 oxen (alluding of course to the brazen sea of Solomon's Temple)? (I assume it's ok to post a pic since the church has released them)
ERayR Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 This may help https://www.lds.org/new-era/1976/03/qa-questions-and-answers?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/church/temples/why-we-build-temples/inside-the-temple?lang=eng 1
ChristKnight Posted July 30, 2014 Author Posted July 30, 2014 This may help https://www.lds.org/new-era/1976/03/qa-questions-and-answers?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/church/temples/why-we-build-temples/inside-the-temple?lang=eng Very interesting, thanks!
Scott Lloyd Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Looking at pictures of the newly remodeled Ogden Temple, I was wondering: what are the origins of the designing of the temple baptismal fonts as being on the backs of 12 oxen (alluding of course to the brazen sea of Solomon's Temple)? (I assume it's ok to post a pic since the church has released them)Cool thing about this (and this was pointed out to us yesterday during the press tour by the wife of the Area Seventy who was conducting the tour) is that the paintings are placed so that that the river seems to flow into and out of the font. Edited July 31, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Very interesting, thanks!Interesting that the article by Fetzer (Church architect at the time), written back in 1976, said that the oxen design is not essential to the validity of the ordinance and that conceivably future temples could be built without it. Of course, in the intervening years, of the many temples that have been constructed, there has not been (to my knowledge) one built without using that motif for the baptismal font. There is tons of symbolism in the architecture of a typical temple, more so than the average person even begins to realize. It is becoming common today for people to disparage the 1972 design of the Ogden and Provo temples. They little realize the symbolism inherent therein. The gold colored spire was meant to symbolize the pillar of fire and the base the cloud by which the Lord guided the children of Israel through the wilderness. I wonder how many will contemplate scriptural symbolism of the desert rose motif in the newly reconstructed Ogden Temple.
ChristKnight Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 Cool thing about this (and this was pointed out to us yesterday during the press tour by the wife of the Area Seventy who was conducting the tour) is that the paintings are placed so that that the river seems to flow into and out of the font. Nice, the Manhattan Temple has a painting in the baptistry with a similar idea (though just "into" the font).
JLHPROF Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 There is tons of symbolism in the architecture of a typical temple, more so than the average person even begins to realize. It is becoming common today for people to disparage the 1972 design of the Ogden and Provo temples. They little realize the symbolism inherent therein. The gold colored spire was meant to symbolize the pillar of fire and the base the cloud by which the Lord guided the children of Israel through the wilderness. I wonder how many will contemplate scriptural symbolism of the desert rose motif in the newly reconstructed Ogden Temple. I love the quote by Brigham Young that states that all temples need not be the same design (on the outside anyway).But that being said, I really wish the newer temples had as much symbolism as the ones from the early days of the Church. And of course, one could spend a lifetime studying the architecture of the Salt Lake Temple and never come close to covering it all. That is an amazing building.I have sat contemplating it many times and I am always surprised by how little the average member walking by seems to recognize. I remember one husband and wife trying to figure out why the earth was below the moon and the stars were above the sun (because D&C 76 uses a different symbolism). Temple symbols are a particular interest of mine...thanks for posting the explanation of the Ogden and Provo temples. That was great to read.
Sevenbak Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 The Catholics were copying Solomon's oxen font as late as the 12th century. 1
JAHS Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I know some temples only have 6 oxen under the font with a mirror that reflects them making it look like 12.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Interesting that the article by Fetzer (Church architect at the time), written back in 1976, said that the oxen design is not essential to the validity of the ordinance and that conceivably future temples could be built without it. Of course, in the intervening years, of the many temples that have been constructed, there has not been (to my knowledge) one built without using that motif for the baptismal font........................................................................................ After the destruction of the Temple of Solomon, the Jews eventually returned from Exile and built what is termed now the Second Temple, in which the Bronze Sea was placed on the backs of 12 lions. Emil Fetzer was quite right. Edited July 31, 2014 by Robert F. Smith
Robert F. Smith Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Looking at pictures of the newly remodeled Ogden Temple, I was wondering: what are the origins of the designing of the temple baptismal fonts as being on the backs of 12 oxen (alluding of course to the brazen sea of Solomon's Temple)? .....................................................Hugh Nibley saw “cosmic symbolism” here, the original twelve oxen being representative of “the circle of the year,” and the Sea as “the Gates of Salvation.”* Othmar Keel likewise sees cosmic symbolism, the primeval ocean frequently being indicated by zig-zag lines,** as in the LDS Book of Abraham facsimile 1, and the Mesopotamian apsu standing for any or all of the three oceans – heavenly, earthly, and subterranean.@ Keel discusses the Bronze Sea and its extensive meaning and watery symbolism at length, so that, returning to the Bible, we are forced to consider the notion of being buried with Jesus in baptism, which leads us directly to Romans 10:7, where Deuteronomy 30:13 is quoted with “sea” changed to the “depths” (of the Underworld), so that Paul can speak of Christ being brought back from death in the depths of the Underworld – represented in Mormon temples by a copy of Hiram of Tyre’s huge Brazen Sea = the cosmic watery abyss (cf. Jonah 2:3-7), or Hades. The twelve oxen or bulls in a circle also bring to mind the use of Nandi-bulls as a kind of fence encircling the Shore Temple at Mamallapuram, near Madras, India (ca. 700-720 A.D.), Nandi being the vahana or “mount” of the god Shiva. Shiva was, of course, the Hindu god of death, like Osiris, but also parallels Saturn and Yahweh/Jehovah – especially as the savior of mankind. Shiva is also a member of the Hindu trinity (Trimurti). Like Shiva, Osiris is identified with the bull, and one ancient Egyptian coffin in the British Museum (#29777) shows Osiris in the form of a bull bearing the dead person to the Underworld.# Moreover, both Yahweh and Baʻal rode bulls.## * Nibley, “The Idea of the Temple in History,” Millennial Star, 120/8 (Aug 1958):232,236, citing Albright; Encyclopaedia Judaica, 15:950, oxen representing the four seasons; Othmar Keel, The Symbolism of the Biblical World: Ancient Near Eastern Iconography and the Book of Psalms, 136, preferring to emphasize the seasonal fertility function of the oxen/bulls.** Keel, Symbolism of the Biblical World, 41, figs. 36-38.@ Keel, Symbolism of the Biblical World, 136.# J. Campbell, Masks of God, II, Oriental Mythology, 63, 69-70, citing Budge, Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, I:13.## W. F. Albright, Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan, 197-198 (Exodus 32, I Kings 12:28ff.); cf. J. M. Miller & J. H. Hayes, History of Ancient Israel and Judah (Westminster John Knox, 2006), 275-276 (photo 51), 298 (photo 53). 2
Zakuska Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) http://fileunderfiber.blogspot.com/2013/10/medieval-treasures-from-hildesheim.html http://baptismforthedead.blogspot.com/2010/06/early-christian-baptismal-fonts.html Edited July 31, 2014 by Zakuska
Garden Girl Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 When I was an ordinance worker in the Portland OR temple, we sometimes were given "special assignments" for periods of 1 - 3+ months, etc. Mine was the Baptistry... which I loved. It was beautiful, with the font resting on the backs of 12 white oxen. the same as in other temples, but these were particularly beautiful. So whenever the baptistry was in use, I was on duty there. I loved it when the young people would come in to do baptisms. I used to chuckle inside because some of the boys used to blush so when I'd ask them if they had a second pair of shorts (some would forget they needed one to get wet and one to wear after). I didn't dare let them feel uncomfortable in the least. GG
Tiki Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Hugh Nibley saw “cosmic symbolism” here, the original twelve oxen being representative of “the circle of the year,” and the Sea as “the Gates of Salvation.”* Othmar Keel likewise sees cosmic symbolism, the primeval ocean frequently being indicated by zig-zag lines,** as in the LDS Book of Abraham facsimile 1, and the Mesopotamian apsu standing for any or all of the three oceans – heavenly, earthly, and subterranean.@ Keel discusses the Bronze Sea and its extensive meaning and watery symbolism at length, so that, returning to the Bible, we are forced to consider the notion of being buried with Jesus in baptism, which leads us directly to Romans 10:7, where Deuteronomy 30:13 is quoted with “sea” changed to the “depths” (of the Underworld), so that Paul can speak of Christ being brought back from death in the depths of the Underworld – represented in Mormon temples by a copy of Hiram of Tyre’s huge Brazen Sea = the cosmic watery abyss (cf. Jonah 2:3-7), or Hades. The twelve oxen or bulls in a circle also bring to mind the use of Nandi-bulls as a kind of fence encircling the Shore Temple at Mamallapuram, near Madras, India (ca. 700-720 A.D.), Nandi being the vahana or “mount” of the god Shiva. Shiva was, of course, the Hindu god of death, like Osiris, but also parallels Saturn and Yahweh/Jehovah – especially as the savior of mankind. Shiva is also a member of the Hindu trinity (Trimurti). Like Shiva, Osiris is identified with the bull, and one ancient Egyptian coffin in the British Museum (#29777) shows Osiris in the form of a bull bearing the dead person to the Underworld.# Moreover, both Yahweh and Baʻal rode bulls.## * Nibley, “The Idea of the Temple in History,” Millennial Star, 120/8 (Aug 1958):232,236, citing Albright; Encyclopaedia Judaica, 15:950, oxen representing the four seasons; Othmar Keel, The Symbolism of the Biblical World: Ancient Near Eastern Iconography and the Book of Psalms, 136, preferring to emphasize the seasonal fertility function of the oxen/bulls.** Keel, Symbolism of the Biblical World, 41, figs. 36-38.@ Keel, Symbolism of the Biblical World, 136.# J. Campbell, Masks of God, II, Oriental Mythology, 63, 69-70, citing Budge, Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, I:13.## W. F. Albright, Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan, 197-198 (Exodus 32, I Kings 12:28ff.); cf. J. M. Miller & J. H. Hayes, History of Ancient Israel and Judah (Westminster John Knox, 2006), 275-276 (photo 51), 298 (photo 53).Is it true Nephite Temples used 12 Tapirs? Maybe that's just a faith-promoting rumor.And yes, Temples can be of different designs as each represents a creation. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Is it true Nephite Temples used 12 Tapirs? Maybe that's just a faith-promoting rumor.............................................................................. Edited August 1, 2014 by Robert F. Smith
Robert F. Smith Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 http://baptismforthedead.blogspot.com/2010/06/early-christian-baptismal-fonts.htmlLooks like a lion. Anyone know where this is?
Buckeye Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 The Santiago Chile temple originally had just a regular baptismal font. Oxen were added when the temple was refurbished in 2005.When I did youth baptisms in the Atlanta temple in 1992 it was just a normal font. I understand the font has since been remodeled to rest on oxen.
theplains Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Interesting that the article by Fetzer (Church architect at the time), written back in 1976, said that the oxen design is not essential to the validity of the ordinance and that conceivably future temples could be built without it.d the base the cloud by which the Lord guided the children of Israel through the wilderness. I need some clarification on this. Which revelation led the Latter-day Saints to build their temples with the font on the twelveoxen and which revelation will guide them to (possibly) build new temples without them?Or are these decisions being made by the Quorum of the Twelve based on finances?Or maybe people are starting to view the Bible as more accurate - that the font of the OldTestament was used only by male priests in their washings during the animal sacrifices? Thanks,Jim
JAHS Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 Interesting that the article by Fetzer (Church architect at the time), written back in 1976, said that the oxen design is not essential to the validity of the ordinance and that conceivably future temples could be built without it. .Well if having the oxen were a requirement for the baptism ordinance, a lot of us would be in big trouble.
mfbukowski Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 Interesting that the article by Fetzer (Church architect at the time), written back in 1976, said that the oxen design is not essential to the validity of the ordinance and that conceivably future temples could be built without it. Of course, in the intervening years, of the many temples that have been constructed, there has not been (to my knowledge) one built without using that motif for the baptismal font. There is tons of symbolism in the architecture of a typical temple, more so than the average person even begins to realize. It is becoming common today for people to disparage the 1972 design of the Ogden and Provo temples. They little realize the symbolism inherent therein. The gold colored spire was meant to symbolize the pillar of fire and the base the cloud by which the Lord guided the children of Israel through the wilderness. I wonder how many will contemplate scriptural symbolism of the desert rose motif in the newly reconstructed Ogden Temple.Don't know if it has been mentioned but the oxen are always in four groups of 3, instead of being evenly spaced. I understand this refers to the three persons of the Godhead. And of course the combination of three and four is symbolically potent- four seasons, four directions, four evangelists, three plus four equals seven, the Hebrew number indicating infinity if I am not mistaken. Four times three is 12, so we have 12 apostles, 12 tribes, 12 months etc. The oxen give service, as do the 12 apostles, pulling the load of the church. Heck even 12 inches in a foot! Also, the center ox of each trio faces one of the cardinal directions, regardless of the orientation of the room itself. The cardinal directions at their intersection form a cross, and a cross is four right angles. With the four directions represented, and the circular font above, the font becomes a giant "compass" supporting the "great sea" of the filled font. So you have the circle created by the compass- another pair of temple symbols there as well. And the circle is another symbol of infinity, like a ring, and that all truth is one. So essentially the font and the oxen, with the circular sea, represent the entire world in microcosm, the church, and God all in one, with the waters of the firmament above and the creatures of God serving below. There's lots of stuff there! 3
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