Establish An Organization For Women Equal To The Priesthood

[Carebear0411]

You have to show some amount of faithfulness. It's given as a privilege for living the faithful life, in essence.I agree that serving can bring the server blessings. But I've also been told we ought to realize it's a blessing to the hold the priesthood.That holding it is a means of teaching us how to act godly and with authority. Without priesthood we wouldn't benefit so much.

All members are given the same privilege to serve with God's authority if they are faithful and true to God's commands. Women can do temple work, which is done with God's authority. Women in the church can pray for their families and offer a mother's blessing with the authority of God. Women can call down protection by calling on the name of Jesus Christ using God's authority.

What you are really saying is that there is distinction between "the run of the mill" service and leadership service in the Church. That somehow there is more learning and growth available to the PH holder than to the rest of us in the church. Christ puts paid to that idea in Matt 20:1-16 with His parable of the workers in his vineyard.

Beats me what God would and would not allow.Beats me if He would figure a way to bless people who find themselves in less fortunate spots and positions then others. For instance, If there were black family that knew the Church was true in say 1910. This family was unable to be sealed in this life, nor were they able to benefit from temple attendance and service. But they remain faithful. I'd like to think that even though God allowed the restriction to limit them on earth, they, eternally, will be blessed for that which they had to suffer (being racism) in this life.

The relatively short time the blacks were not allowed PH ordinances was preceded by thousands of years when they could. There is no scriptural evidence of women being ordained. So, since all the signs are evidencing themselves as to the end of our Earthly probation, then you would have to assume that God did not think it vital or necessary for women's salvation to hold the PH. If that's true, until the time arrives when it becomes vital to our salvation, The Lord's established order was good enough for 6000 years, it's good enough now

I'm not advocating for that group. I'm discussing ideas. Whether some would be satisfied if women were ordained or not is immaterial. I'm not advocating we move to some world of not being able to distinguish one's gender from another. I'm only interested in seeing women's roles and voices in the Church be increased.

Good grief! Wrong word! The women who are agitating for the PH will not be SATISFIED with simply allowing women to be ordained. They couldn't be, because the men of the church would still be in positions to make callings for PH positions. They would have to keep pushing if their stated position of "equal access" is to be achieved. And even then these women would not be SATISFIED until there is a woman prophet and most of the Quorum of the 12 is made up of women. Oh, and then we have all the Quorums of the 70 that would have to be quota watched. Do you see how ridiculous it all would become?

[CV75]

Well its confusing, at the very least, then to suggest holding and exercising the priesthood is and/or can be a blessing to the holder, but women will not be denied any blessing even if they can't hold the priesthood.

Just pointing out the facts. It seems like just putting women in a council room won't necessarily get the influence out there.

I agree. But I also agree it'd be nice to give women more opportunity to lead in the Church, and that's it's high time we re-evaluate who we want women's roles to be in the Church.

At this point, it may be semantics (which aren’t any less confusing). “Interim” blessings during mortality come in many shapes, sizes, means etc. according to the laws and opportunities the Lord has provided. These lead to the “ultimate” blessing of course, which is the same for all (exaltation with family) though retain our individuality. Tying it to the Elder Tanner link, there are many ways to enjoy the privileges and responsibilities, to be a tremendous force and influence for good, etc. He just happened to be addressing the audience of a priesthood session.

 

The kinds of facts you are citing don’t seem to be in the Lord’s design for how Zion functions. “Just putting women in a council room?” I would never presume to do that, and I have never seen a bishop or stake president treat a council as if they were. I can’t read their minds, but I do presume that the sisters are present and participating of their own volition. Given that the instructions about councils may represent an ideal to some, they still realistically describe how things can be done and how everyone seeks and channels the influence of the Spirit using their respective God-given gifts and talents.

 

I have utmost confidence that you can successfully bring up whatever you want in a council, if you can truly believe you’re not just being put in a room, or if you are, prepare yourself so as to have the Lord with you.

Edited July 2, 2014 by CV75

[stemelbow]

All members are given the same privilege to serve with God's authority if they are faithful and true to God's commands. Women can do temple work, which is done with God's authority. Women in the church can pray for their families and offer a mother's blessing with the authority of God. Women can call down protection by calling on the name of Jesus Christ using God's authority.

What you are really saying is that there is distinction between "the run of the mill" service and leadership service in the Church. That somehow there is more learning and growth available to the PH holder than to the rest of us in the church. Christ puts paid to that idea in Matt 20:1-16 with His parable of the workers in his vineyard.

I think it goes without saying that holding a leadership position in the Church brings blessings to the individual and perhaps even his/her family. I think it'd be nice to have ore positions available to women. Do I think it completely right or God's design? Perhaps not. I don't know why not, but there's tons I don't know. I think it would benefit individual women as they stretch and reach out to magnify callings and I think it would benefit us all to understand the great benefit of doing so.

The relatively short time the blacks were not allowed PH ordinances was preceded by thousands of years when they could. There is no scriptural evidence of women being ordained. So, since all the signs are evidencing themselves as to the end of our Earthly probation, then you would have to assume that God did not think it vital or necessary for women's salvation to hold the PH. If that's true, until the time arrives when it becomes vital to our salvation, The Lord's established order was good enough for 6000 years, it's good enough nowf

Not sure what you're talking about. but it sounds interesting.

Good grief! Wrong word! The women who are agitating for the PH will not be SATISFIED with simply allowing women to be ordained. They couldn't be, because the men of the church would still be in positions to make callings for PH positions. They would have to keep pushing if their stated position of "equal access" is to be achieved. And even then these women would not be SATISFIED until there is a woman prophet and most of the Quorum of the 12 is made up of women. Oh, and then we have all the Quorums of the 70 that would have to be quota watched. Do you see how ridiculous it all would become?

I think that's not very good reasoning, but I respect your right to hold to it. Not sure the quota idea is reason to discount the idea nor that it is as problematic as it may seem, nor that it is actually necessary.

[stemelbow]

At this point, it may be semantics (which aren’t any less confusing). “Interim” blessings during mortality come in many shapes, sizes, means etc. according to the laws and opportunities the Lord has provided. These lead to the “ultimate” blessing of course, which is the same for all (exaltation with family) though retain our individuality. Tying it to the Elder Tanner link, there are many ways to enjoy the privileges and responsibilities, to be a tremendous force and influence for good, etc. He just happened to be addressing the audience of a priesthood session.

 

The kinds of facts you are citing don’t seem to be in the Lord’s design for how Zion functions. “Just putting women in a council room?” I would never presume to do that, and I have never seen a bishop or stake president treat a council as if they were. I can’t read their minds, but I do presume that the sisters are present and participating of their own volition. Given that the instructions about councils may represent an ideal to some, they still realistically describe how things can be done and how everyone seeks and channels the influence of the Spirit using their respective God-given gifts and talents.

 

I have utmost confidence that you can successfully bring up whatever you want in a council, if you can truly believe you’re not just being put in a room, or if you are, prepare yourself so as to have the Lord with you.

I think there's plenty of room for improvement. That's all I'm saying. I think it's fair to consider if the way we are doing things regarding women's roles and participation is really what the Lord wants. I'm all for challenging our own assumptions for the care of others, but I respect other people have a different view of this, believe our assumptions are in place because that's how God would want it.

[CV75]

I think there's plenty of room for improvement. That's all I'm saying.

Yes, I think we can all agree that there is plenty of room for improvement. I think improvement starts within our scope of influence, which is local, and where our involvement in councils provide such a great opportunity to achieve improvement.

[stemelbow]

Yes, I think we can all agree that there is plenty of room for improvement. I think improvement starts within our scope of influence, which is local, and where our involvement in councils provide such a great opportunity to achieve improvement.

Good point.

[JAHS]

Since when can women not give healing blessings? My wife did it for our kids on moments when I was not around to do it.

[rongo]

Carebear:

Point well taken. However, it might not be a bad idea to ask the women who go to the bishop with a sexual transgression if they would like to have either the RS or YW president present.

 

Very, very few women would choose to have additional people present at a confession. Even if they are women. Especially if the others are women.

 

Women universally told me when I was a bishop and this topic came up that they would have a much harder time confessing serious things to another woman than to a man. I think some of us are afflicted with "conventional wisdom" that has little bearing on reality.

[rodheadlee]

In regards to the OP, This is all too US centric, it's not going to fly in nations where the family patriarchal order is still a way of life.

[Calm]

Women universally told me when I was a bishop and this topic came up that they would have a much harder time confessing serious things to another woman than to a man. I think some of us are afflicted with "conventional wisdom" that has little bearing on reality.

Women who have a hard time confessing to a man probably don't as often, so your sample is self-selecting rather than generalized.

[BlueDreams]

Carebear:

 

 

Very, very few women would choose to have additional people present at a confession. Even if they are women. Especially if the others are women.

 

Women universally told me when I was a bishop and this topic came up that they would have a much harder time confessing serious things to another woman than to a man. I think some of us are afflicted with "conventional wisdom" that has little bearing on reality.

 

I agree with cal. I'm one of those women who probably wouldn't be on the census. I only talk to my bishop when it's absolutely necessary. And if I had the choice between talking to my RS pres or the bishop about a sexual concern, I would choose my RS pres 8 times out of 10 (it could vary based on who either one was and their personalities). 

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

And women who are uncomfortable confessing to a bishop might even be too uncomfortable to admit it to that bishop, afraid he might take it personally.

[rongo]

Most women wouldn't (I probably just made juliann's head explode). I'm sure some would rather confess to another woman. My wife and my female ward leaders told me that, women's competition with each other and judging of each other being what it is, they would rather die than confess to another woman in the ward. One of these was our primary president, who we disfellowshipped for an extra-marital affair. During regular meetings as part of her eventual reinstatement, she made it clear that she was much more comfortable working with her bishop and stake president than she would have been working with her Relief Society president (or some other woman).

 

I don't think those who think that having a woman "in the room" with the bishop for a confession have much experience with confessing. It would be awkward and uncomfortable to have *any* other people in the room, regardless of gender.

[rongo]

Confessions are awkward, embarrassing, and uncomfortable, regardless of any other factors. Very difficult, and it takes a lot of courage and guts, no matter who you are. I think this is the main factor, and not gender dynamics.

 

At the end of the day, the fullness of the keys of the gospel of repentance are held by the bishop and stake president, by revelation. People yearning for a change that allows women to make discipline decisions, front-line counseling, or hear confessions are hitting their heads against a wall. It is not how God has ever ordered things in His church.

[stemelbow]

Most women wouldn't (I probably just made juliann's head explode). I'm sure some would rather confess to another woman. My wife and my female ward leaders told me that, women's competition with each other and judging of each other being what it is, they would rather die than confess to another woman in the ward. One of these was our primary president, who we disfellowshipped for an extra-marital affair. During regular meetings as part of her eventual reinstatement, she made it clear that she was much more comfortable working with her bishop and stake president than she would have been working with her Relief Society president (or some other woman).

 

I don't think those who think that having a woman "in the room" with the bishop for a confession have much experience with confessing. It would be awkward and uncomfortable to have *any* other people in the room, regardless of gender.

Next time I have the need to confess something i'll invite a crew of ward members along and see how it goes. This is all very intriguing to me.

[rongo]

That is the logical extension of those clamoring for women "UN Observers" to be present for women's confessions.

 

And, calls to put windows in bishop's office doors.

[BlueDreams]

Since when can women not give healing blessings? My wife did it for our kids on moments when I was not around to do it.

 

1.) It's fallen out of practice and there's little distinction between just praying for another person. Most  people I know, don't do this (not that' I've asked a ton, either)

2.) why should it only be if you aren't around?**

 

     **I don't really care for this line of thought in general....that much of women's spiritual giving is lumped into this believe of it being in exceptional circumstances or supplemental rather than necessary for function. It bleeds even into people understanding of the temple at times (I'm not saying this is you, it's just a general pet peeve). For example, I was working at the veil and a friend ran into me in a hallway. He wondered what I did, I explained our part, and the light went on for him halfway and he described it as helping the brothers who were performing the ordinance (something like that). No, I was co-performing an ordinance. Similar with Initiatories, I've heard a few assume that women are called to officiate initiatory ordinances, because it would be inappropriate for men to be there due to modesty concerns. In general, I would hope that a mother's blessing would feel as just as needed as a father's and that women having and using the priesthood would be seen as more necessary than it currently is (it's growing, i think).

 

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

Most women wouldn't (I probably just made juliann's head explode).

I have my doubts about this….that women would prefer to confess to men than women based solely on gender.

First off, women confess to women all the time in my experience. Not all, but it is not shocking in the least when it happens. Second, there are studies showing that women prefer female doctors 50-70% over male for "intimate" problems.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/11/patient-gender-preferences-medical-care.html

What may colour the preference in a church situation is the perception of authority and inspiration. The concept of a bishop's mantle may lead a women to believe a bishop will have more insight into her situation than her RS Pres. Also is the concept of roles. It is not typical to think of a RS as someone to confess to so it will feel more awkward, just as it would feel awkward to think about confessing to your kid's teacher about something…that is not how you are supposed to behave to each other.

Edited July 3, 2014 by calmoriah

[rongo]

I think that's it, exactly, calmoriah. In the church, the bishop has priesthood keys (and for believing members, he really does, too --- not just some fairy tale belief). While women confide to confidants (who can be very helpful in helping someone "go talk to the bishop"), it is not replacement, or even analogue, to formally confessing as part of the repentance process.

 

And I don't think there is any doctrinal way that women-as-confessor-with-keys could ever really work in the Church.

 

As far as women being present in a supporting role ---- I think that's a really bad idea that would not at all work how supporters think it would, in practice.

[stemelbow]

1.) It's fallen out of practice and there's little distinction between just praying for another person. Most  people I know, don't do this (not that' I've asked a ton, either)

2.) why should it only be if you aren't around?**

 

     **I don't really care for this line of thought in general....that much of women's spiritual giving is lumped into this believe of it being in exceptional circumstances or supplemental rather than necessary for function. It bleeds even into people understanding of the temple at times (I'm not saying this is you, it's just a general pet peeve). For example, I was working at the veil and a friend ran into me in a hallway. He wondered what I did, I explained our part, and the light went on for him halfway and he described it as helping the brothers who were performing the ordinance (something like that). No, I was co-performing an ordinance. Similar with Initiatories, I've heard a few assume that women are called to officiate initiatory ordinances, because it would be inappropriate for men to be there due to modesty concerns. In general, I would hope that a mother's blessing would feel as just as needed as a father's and that women having and using the priesthood would be seen as more necessary than it currently is (it's growing, i think).

 

 

With luv,

BD

Does the Church support women giving priesthood blessings? Or is this more of a pray for someone to get better type of thing?

[stemelbow]

If its any consolation, as a man, I'd prefer to confess to a woman.

Confessing to a man seems so blasé.

[ELF1024]

If its any consolation, as a man, I'd prefer to confess to a woman.

Confessing to a man seems so blasé.

 

[rongo]

We had a couple in our ward once that was having marital trouble. The husband was a cowboy who broke wild horses for a living; his wife owned ca. 15 Circle K's. They were loaded, but she despised him because he had "no ambition." He agreed to go to marriage counseling, and told me afterwards, "You know what's worse than a woman railing at you? Two women railing at you" (the counselor was a woman).

 

Nice pictures, ELF . . .

[ELF1024]

Nice pictures, ELF . . .

 

Yeah... started typing... incriminated myself... stopped mid thought and decided to just... let it go.

[BlueDreams]

Most women wouldn't (I probably just made juliann's head explode). I'm sure some would rather confess to another woman. My wife and my female ward leaders told me that, women's competition with each other and judging of each other being what it is, they would rather die than confess to another woman in the ward. One of these was our primary president, who we disfellowshipped for an extra-marital affair. During regular meetings as part of her eventual reinstatement, she made it clear that she was much more comfortable working with her bishop and stake president than she would have been working with her Relief Society president (or some other woman).

 

I don't think those who think that having a woman "in the room" with the bishop for a confession have much experience with confessing. It would be awkward and uncomfortable to have *any* other people in the room, regardless of gender.

 

 

Again, this is not my experience. I'm not saying that there aren't times that they wouldn't prefer the bishop. I mention that there were times that I may want one or the other. But this has definitely not been my experience, mine has been that women largely talk openly with women and then a guy enters and the topic immediately changes. I have far more females that I share my deeper concerns with than men. Women are seen more often as safe places to "let loose" and just be ourselves. A funny anecdote was a woman I met on the mission. The elders who referred us to her described her as pretty distant and not that open. Within minutes of talking to us sisters, she'd confessed an unhealthy coping tool of one-night-stands and binge drinking she fell back on when she was extremely stressed. I can understand why a woman who had an affair may be hesitant to confess to another woman. But that's not all forms of sexual concerns...in fact that one is probably less common than other concerns for women. And most women would understand the need for confidentiality in such issues. 

 

 

And I'm well aware that confessions can be awkward. I'm a therapist, confessions are written in my job description. My own concerns have little to do with fears about confessing period and moreso concerns for understanding. I don't think gender negates this, I think one can be trained and become competent in negotiating how issues of shame and guilt present themselves differently for men/women as well as gaining an understanding as to how these may play out between genders. But most bishops are probably not going to have specific expertise in this area. In such a case, it may be helpful to have an opinion that was more intrinsically tuned into more gendered expressions and concerns.

 

I also think gender can be an important role in the process of healing as well. For example, though it may have been more difficult, what would it have meant for this woman to find an outreach of love and support by a fellow sister, especially if/when a number of women have snubbed her? She probably mentioned this because there was still a heavy weight of shame and alienation for her (both real and perceived) with women. To be accepted by a woman and to have her story heard and understood and shown mercy in that could be a very powerful moment to help mend, not only from sin, but the loss of a sense of sisterhood that can come from this.

 

And there are times, when this would be easier...period to talk with a woman.  I was talking to my roommate who mentioned actually having this problem with her bishop, where she grew frustrated in trying to help him understand an issue that a woman would be more likely to get immediately. 

 

I, personally, am not saying that it would universally mean that all women would be better off confessing with the RS pres over the Bishop or that all would want her there in the first place. But that doesn't negate that many would actually like to have her as a larger option for their personal issues that crop up. ....and that there could, hypothetically, be some real benefit for the women if such was able to happen.

 

With luv,

BD