Establish An Organization For Women Equal To The Priesthood

[CV75]

This is commendable as far as it goes. And women's involvement in the conducting of Church courts? And interviewing of girls and young women over possible sexual indiscretions?

I think councils are a great key to manifesting and leveraging the gifts and talents of the members, male and female, unencumbered by any office, lack of office or segregation of organizations (they bring people and organizations together).

 

There is a fairly good (and extensive and detailed) discussion of sisters' roles in councils and interviews here:  http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63759-heres-your-chance-to-request-your-own-disciplinary-council/, but to summarize some thoughts from that thread:

 

I think the pattern of confessing to the judge in Israel “as it was in ancient days” is reflected in Mosiah 26:29. Mosiah 27:31 also shows the pattern of confessing to a judge (in this case, the Lord Himself, but I think that is also a type for His earthly administrators who represent Him). I would also say "the testimony of the just" includes the sincere, proactive confession of the remorseful, penitent sinner (D&C 58:17-18), which verse I think informs D&C 107:72. The process of confession of serious sin through priesthood channels is indicated in D&C 42:88-92 and D&C 64:7, 12).

 

D&C 107:69-77 speaks of the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood, which include the gospel of repentance (confession is a step in repentance). In a ward, the bishop (a judge in Israel) presides over the Aaronic Priesthood and this ministry, and where he is a High Priest, over the Melchizedek Priesthood also. D&C 13 lists the gospel of repentance as one of three keys of the Aaronic Priesthood.

 

Under our current structure, a sister may accompany a member in either setting as requested by the person for whom the meeting is arranged. Parents may attend as well. I think each sister can be prepared to do this, and be prepared to serve those who may need her at any given moment. The presiding authority has to be able to discern when it is right to do so. Where child safety is always of primary concern, unit-specific policies/practices are typically in place as needed. Our current structure also allows for the assignment of a sister for follow-up ministering.

[stemelbow]

Why is this sad?  No one is saying that women do not have talents and abilities.

Sad only if building the kingdom is the goal. If not, then putting in any old or young fool will do and we'll plod along a slowly like we have.

 

And since when are bishops and stake presidents called based on their abiltiy?

since as long as I remember. Some few years ago our SP got so mad at our ward. he came and invited himself to speak so he could lay into us because there were rumblings and complaints about our bishop--they didn't think he carried the appropriate skill-set. Well we were assured at that time that the SP's recommendation for him came as a result of considering his skillset. I've never seen a guy plucked straight from less-active status spending his sundays drinking and watching football games. They usually are fellows who have exhibited their skills for a while in the ward.

 

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

It just so happens as a stipulation to being called by God one must actually attend and show some sort of skill.

[CV75]

1. Holding the priesthood is to be earned and to hold it is to eternally bless the holder. Women will never be able to experience the blessing of holding the priesthood.

2. Women have less of a voice and influence as men because they don't hold the priesthood. Nearly all leadership positions are set aside for men. Therefore women can't aspire, even if so skilled, to lead in the same way as men.

1. The blessing of the priesthood is not in the holding of the priesthood but in the spiritual blessings it opens up to all, and which each person realizes. How they handle priesthood conferral or office, or the lack thereof, or their spiritual gifts and talents, is certainly a contributing factor to their enjoyment of those blessings.

 

2. Councils give women that voice. The effectiveness of councils and the voices expressed in councils follows along the same lines as D&C 121:34-42.

 

Equal in responsibility and authority? While men visit all members of the ward RS is to visit only women. And what authority from God do women have?

I noted the difference between the quorums and relief Society in #21. One organization is based on a member’s priesthood office and the other is based on a member’s age and gender. I’m not sure why they should be “equal” in this instance as a matter of eternal principle. Not every member does the same thing; it would be a funny-looking body if they did.

 

Sadly, I think it's true that many women could do better jobs as Bishops and stake presidents as some of the men who are so called end up doing.

This is like saying it’s sad that not everyone is perfect. I do not find it sad at all; with whatever wherewithal a woman has to do a better job, she can well apply in other capacities.

[stemelbow]

1. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "earned". Could you explain that please.

You have to show some amount of faithfulness. It's given as a privilege for living the faithful life, in essence.

As far as being "eternally blessed"...you have an interesting take on what the PH is. It is not a selfish means by which those holding it will find blessings. The PH is purely a means by which to serve. A the wife of a Bishop, I can tell any of you women who think power and position in the Church is something to be sought after because of the prestige or power, being Bishop is just plain hard work, not prestigious. I have seen growth in my husband because of the many opportunites to serve that being Bishop has brought him, but that blessing is available to all who seek every opportunity to reach out and help.

I agree that serving can bring the server blessings. But I've also been told we ought to realize it's a blessing to the hold the priesthood. That holding it is a means of teaching us how to act godly and with authority. Without priesthood we wouldn't benefit so much.

 

2. Again, the idea of leadership as a "better" or more "prestigious" means of serving is a false dichotomy. One does not have to lead to find the blessings that are part of service - which is what the PH is all about (if weilded properly). If such a difference were valid, that would mean for millenia women have been robbed of important opportunities that affected their eternal progression. Do you really think a loving God would have allowed that be and only NOW, at the last hour of the last day, make those changes?

Beats me what God would and would not allow. Beats me if He would figure a way to bless people who find themselves in less fortunate spots and positions then others. For instance, If there were black family that knew the Church was true in say 1910. This family was unable to be sealed in this life, nor were they able to benefit from temple attendance and service. But they remain faithful. I'd like to think that even though God allowed the restriction to limit them on earth, they, eternally, will be blessed for that which they had to suffer (being racism) in this life.

 

"And what authority from God do women have?" Again, the idea that authority from God equal blessings found nowhere else. This is simply not true.

What's not true? Holders of the priesthood do not benefit when they hold and exercise this priesthood? I think you're wrong.

 

Your last point brings up a important point...if the PH authority was given to women tomorrow OW members would still not be happy.

They might be. Indeed some are probably more happy now than others. Some might even be more happy now than you or I.

They would then agitate for equal representation in all quorums. They would insist on some kind of quota to assure "equality". If that takes place then inspiration (and therefore God's will) would no longer be the means for calling people to positions, it would be all about meeting quotas and political correctness.

I'm not advocating for that group. I'm discussing ideas. Whether some would be satisfied if women were ordained or not is immaterial.

 

God is a God of order and logic. Clearly, since there are two sexes, there had to be distinction between the roles of the sexes or the quarrel over who is to do what would be endless and anarchy would reign.

I'm not advocating we move to some world of not being able to distinguish one's gender from another. I'm only interested in seeing women's roles and voices in the Church be increased.

[CV75]

Priesthood is historically a male thing, although there have supposedly been priestesses, whatever that means. Let men do their thing. What I am suggesting is that we elevate women in the Church (not put them on a pedestal) to the point that they are truly equal with men. This, it seems to me, can only occur if they have there own organization that exists in true unity and equality with the priesthood, such as should exist in a meaningful marriage relationship, where one member of the relationship does not dominate the other or try to make all the decisions.

I don’t think anyone’s worth is dependent on the organization to which they belong, any more than it is determined by the priesthood or office they hold—this is the whole reason for D&C 121:34-42.

 

What makes the worth of a soul great (rhetorical question)?

 

By design and commandment, quorums do not try to dominate the auxiliaries or make their decisions for them, and the councils would be the “marriage.” The success of the marriage is not dependent on which organization(s) the couple belongs to; only how well they value and act in their membership in their respective organization (whether that be family, ward, Church, quorum, Relief Society, etc.).

[stemelbow]

1. The blessing of the priesthood is not in the holding of the priesthood but in the spiritual blessings it opens up to all, and which each person realizes. How they handle priesthood conferral or office, or the lack thereof, or their spiritual gifts and talents, is certainly a contributing factor to their enjoyment of those blessings.

Interesting take. Recounts N. Eldon Tanner:

I was talking to a very successful businessman just yesterday, who is a devout member of this church, who magnifies his priesthood. I said, “Have you ever found it at any time in your life to be a detriment to you?”

He said, “President Tanner, it has always been a plus.”

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1972/04/the-priesthood-a-royal-army?lang=eng&query=is+holding+the+priesthood+a+blessing+to+the+holder

I think there are probably thousands of quotes we can find that suggest holding the priesthood can bless, has blessed the holder.

 

2. Councils give women that voice. The effectiveness of councils and the voices expressed in councils follows along the same lines as D&C 121:34-42.

A study was done at BYU, no less, in which it was determined that women have less voice in professional and social situations when men speak. Putting a women in a council isn't quite getting them the voice in and of itself.

http://news.byu.edu/archive12-sep-women.aspx

 

I noted the difference between the quorums and relief Society in #21. One organization is based on a member’s priesthood office and the other is based on a member’s age and gender. I’m not sure why they should be “equal” in this instance as a matter of eternal principle. Not every member does the same thing; it would be a funny-looking body if they did.

Priesthood office is also just based on the boys' and men's ages, for the most part.

 

This is like saying it’s sad that not everyone is perfect. I do not find it sad at all; with whatever wherewithal a woman has to do a better job, she can well apply in other capacities.

But it could definitely benefit women if they were given more opportunity to lead, as say a bishop. I think . it could help the psyche of young girls growing up. It could benefit us all.

[ksfisher]

Your suggestion is a good one and RS or YW presidents really should be allowed to weigh in on these sexual issues. They do not need the PH to do so.

 

I would beg to differ.  The purpose of the priesthood is to bring us to God through the ordinances and covenants of the gospel.  Bishops and Stake Presidents have the responsibility to see that members of there wards or stakes who participate in gospel ordinances, whether that be the sacrament or the temple, do so worthily.  And if a person is no worthy they have the responsibility to help that person get on the path do being worthy.  This is exactly what the priesthood is for, to act in the name of Christ to help those under their stewardship to fully enact the power of the atonement in their lives.

 

As wonderful as a relief society president or young women's or young men's president is they cannot take the place of a bishop who holds the keys to the gospel of repentance for the members of his ward.  Those keys are real and he has a most solemn charge to exercise them in the name of Christ for the salvation of those whom he serves.  Hearing confessions and helping to enact the power of the atonement in the life of a sinner, regardless of their gender, is strictly the province of one who holds priesthood keys.

[ksfisher]

I've never seen a guy plucked straight from less-active status spending his sundays drinking and watching football games. They usually are fellows who have exhibited their skills for a while in the ward.

 

 

 

Worthiness is the key, not talent.

[stemelbow]

Worthiness is the key, not talent.

hmm...so why is a person called to be a bishop? Was he called because he is worthy, as would many other men in the ward, presumably, or because God wants to use his particular skills and talents at the time?

Worthiness only seems to be one key. Not the only key. Interesting I have, over the years, heard people say things like, "oh he'll be a bishop someday", referring to a young upstart, or "I know why he, in particular, was called as a bishop" inferring his skills were needed at that time. But I don't think I've heard anyone ever say, "well he's the most worthy of the ward, so he was called as bishop" or anything of the like.

[Ahab]

Just wrap your mind around the idea that the organization of the Church is perfect, the way it's supposed to be.

[ksfisher]

But I don't think I've heard anyone ever say, "well he's the most worthy of the ward, so he was called as bishop" or anything of the like.

 

But you just got done saying that you'd never seen an inactive beer drinker call to be bishop. 

 

All bishops have talents and abilities.  The Lord is able to use those talents and abilities to further his work. 

 

Those talents and abilities may be just what a ward needs right then.  That doesn't preclude that someone more talented and more able doesn't reside in that ward, or even that the more talented and able person is any less worthy.

[juliann]

You are partially right. Belle Spafford, while saddened over the changes, did adapt and try to recognize the positives of correlation. The negative of correlation is that everyone is expected to conform to some standard promoted from Church headquarters, thus stifling individuality. Women have been expected to conform to the standard dictated by correlation, and have probably, thereby, been limited in developing and expressing some of their innate abilities.

 

I remember when this happened.  There was no joy for it, concern...or mostly sadness...would be expressed and followed by a confirmation that this must be what is best for the church.  The overriding feeling was that women were being sacrificed for the better good.  Mbfuowski (or something close) made an excellent comment about so many women having difficulty doing the male leadership style because they have not been trained in the leadership style and they tend to focus on their own auxilliaries rather than including others when it would be helpful. (Paraphrased badly).  We have never been taught to organize beyond our own borders, that would be overstepping our place.  

 

Every ward as a same ten people problem and I particularly see this in women led auxillaries.  Our new RS Prez was the former Stake RS Prez.  The new Prez was the old ward Prez a few cycles back.  Women are removed from current Presidencies to go into other Presidencies. So there is a need to build up more confidence and skill in women to create a larger pool of capable leaders within the church male oriented structure.

Edited July 2, 2014 by juliann

[stemelbow]

But you just got done saying that you'd never seen an inactive beer drinker call to be bishop. 

 

All bishops have talents and abilities.  The Lord is able to use those talents and abilities to further his work. 

 

Those talents and abilities may be just what a ward needs right then.  That doesn't preclude that someone more talented and more able doesn't reside in that ward, or even that the more talented and able person is any less worthy.

yes, we all have talents and abilities. And talent and ability does factor into who is called as bishop, among other callings. It seems we agree on that. Worthiness is not the key. There are other factors.

And some bishops don't necessarily do the best job. But, it is possible that if women were able to be called a woman could have done a better job. Of course, we'd never know .

[CV75]

I think there are probably thousands of quotes we can find that suggest holding the priesthood can bless, has blessed the holder.

I’m not saying it doesn’t and hasn’t, but neither does a woman not holding it deny her any blessings; my point is that the real blessing transcends that for both men and women (families, really), and the way to obtain that blessing is to follow Christ in word, deed, attribute, etc.

 

 

A study was done at BYU, no less, in which it was determined that women have less voice in professional and social situations when men speak. Putting a women in a council isn't quite getting them the voice in and of itself.

http://news.byu.edu/archive12-sep-women.aspx

Academic studies aside, Zion is our standard, and it transcends societal trends. Councils are designed for each member to have a voice, just as the Gift of the Holy Ghost is designed to help each member know what to say with it.

 

 

Priesthood office is also just based on the boys' and men's ages, for the most part.

"Also just" is an oxymoron, which may provide some insight into the dynamics of unmet expectations.

 

Age may be a correlation, but not the design of quorum membership. Priesthood office is the design, and the requirements for that have been laid out.

 

 

But it could definitely benefit women if they were given more opportunity to lead, as say a bishop. I think . it could help the psyche of young girls growing up. It could benefit us all.

I don’t think anyone’s worth is dependent on the organization to which they belong, any more than it is determined by the priesthood or office they hold—this is the whole reason for D&C 121:34-42. Everyone can be a leader in ways that really count. See https://www.lds.org/service/leadership?lang=eng (look on the right hand side of the screen).

[juliann]

Worthiness is the key, not talent.

 

Then we wouldn't have the Same Ten People problem.    

[CV75]

Every ward as a same ten people problem and I particularly see this in women led auxillaries.

 

And some bishops don't necessarily do the best job. But, it is possible that if women were able to be called a woman could have done a better job.

It seems that we are more equal than we would rather admit!

[stemelbow]

I’m not saying it doesn’t and hasn’t, but neither does a woman not holding it deny her any blessings; my point is that the real blessing transcends that for both men and women (families, really), and the way to obtain that blessing is to follow Christ in word, deed, attribute, etc.

Well its confusing, at the very least, then to suggest holding and exercising the priesthood is and/or can be a blessing to the holder, but women will not be denied any blessing even if they can't hold the priesthood.

 

 

 

Academic studies aside, Zion is our standard, and it transcends societal trends. Councils are designed for each member to have a voice, just as the Gift of the Holy Ghost is designed to help each member know what to say with it.

Just pointing out the facts. It seems like just putting women in a council room won't necessarily get the influence out there.

 

"Also just" is an oxymoron, which may provide some insight into the dynamics of unmet expectations.

 

Age may be a correlation, but not the design of quorum membership. Priesthood office is the design, and the requirements for that have been laid out.

 

 

I don’t think anyone’s worth is dependent on the organization to which they belong, any more than it is determined by the priesthood or office they hold—this is the whole reason for D&C 121:34-42. Everyone can be a leader in ways that really count. See https://www.lds.org/service/leadership?lang=eng (look on the right hand side of the screen).

I agree. But I also agree it'd be nice to give women more opportunity to lead in the Church, and that's it's high time we re-evaluate who we want women's roles to be in the Church.

Edited July 2, 2014 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

Then we wouldn't have the Same Ten People problem.

I think we miss a lot of opportunites to grow people by calling the same ten people. I get that some people simply don't want to lead. They've been given opportunity and perhaps have failed, or something close to failing. These folks may be blacklisted concerning certain callings. But, as it grows, I fear we miss plenty of opportunity to include plenty of others.

[ksfisher]

Then we wouldn't have the Same Ten People problem.    

 

With a bishops calling usually lasting 5 or more years it would take around 50 years to cycle back to the first person. 

 

As a missionary I did serve in a branch where it was the Same Two People. 

[juliann]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood. In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men. Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men, perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability. (Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?) In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men, but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

 

It will have to remain under the Prophet.   But there is an awful lot to work with under that.  I don't think we need to demand the priesthood, I think women need to rediscover their own "power", which although a function of the priesthood is not THE priesthood anymore than men are THE priesthood. 

 

The latest training video https://www.lds.org/...10275615850-eng  has a mother saying she never felt like she lacked the power of the priesthood in her home even though it doesn't  have a patriarch.

 

Now, that is more "feeling" talk but to dismiss it as only that misses the point that not lacking something means you have it. This is pretty meaningful in the most recent church video.  "Power of the priesthood" is a very recent term for women and it is just beginning to be fleshed out.

[Calm]

Because 15 men say that it isn't going to happen. The Relief Society could be removed from the oversight of the priesthood.

so make it a nonLDS organization? Because that would seem the only way to remove it from the authority of the Priesthood, given the Prophet himself operates by that authority.

Somehow I don't think that is what JS had in mind when he, acting in his Priesthood authority, made the RS a church organization.

Obviously, an obvious point given ksfisher makes it in the very next post....

Edited July 2, 2014 by calmoriah

[juliann]

With a bishops calling usually lasting 5 or more years it would take around 50 years to cycle back to the first person. 

 

As a missionary I did serve in a branch where it was the Same Two People. 

 

A bishop will have established himself as one of The Same Ten People long before a bishop calling. 

[tld]

Reading the tenor of the direction the thread has taken, we maybe should ask the question of how we can best grow people, particularly women, in the gospel. Is the correlation program, as it now stands, accomplishing this? Would allowing women to hold the priesthood accomplish this? Would giving them autonomy, away from priesthood control, accomplish this? I get the impression that many women in the Church feel that they are being limited in expressing their talents in a meaningful way. I may be wrong in this, and only women can provide the answer. Like Jonathan Livingston Seagull, how many yearn to spread their wings and fly?   

[stemelbow]

A bishop will have established himself as one of The Same Ten People long before a bishop calling.

Indeed. I recall before my current bishop was called, he and his wife were good at campaigning. He'd get up on first sundays telling us how his service efforts helped someone or other. His wife would get up and tell us he thinks he's the bishop because he makes sure to get to every activity in the ward.

[Carebear0411]

What people who have sinned really want is more people weighing in on the matter.

Point taken. However, it might not be a bad idea to ask the women who go to the Bishop with sexual transgressions if they would like to have either the YW or RS president present. It would be their decision, not a mandate. It would make it easier for some (especially young women) to have the female presence for support. But, ultimately, it is the Judge in Zion's place to decide what action is to be taken.