Establish An Organization For Women Equal To The Priesthood

[tld]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood. In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men. Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men, perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability. (Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?) In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men, but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

[stemelbow]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood. In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men. Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men, perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability. (Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?) In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men, but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

Why go that route? Just give them the priesthood. Seems like an easier and more effective solution to me.

Edited July 2, 2014 by stemelbow

[tld]

Why go that route? Just give them the priesthood. Seems like an easier and more effective solution to me.

 

Because 15 men say that it isn't going to happen. The Relief Society could be removed from the oversight of the priesthood. This would require only a policy change. Ward Relief Society Presidents could start interviewing girls and young women for possible sexual indiscretions. These, just for starters, could be easily done, and then move on from there.

[ksfisher]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood. In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men. Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men, perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability. (Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?) In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men, but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

 

If you take the Relief Society out from under the control of the priesthood you take it out of the church.  The President of the Church is the presiding High Priest, everything in the church is under his stewardship.  Every organization in the church traces it's leadership, eventually, back to the church's presiding High Priest.  We would, in effect, have two churches.  One for men and one for women.

[CV75]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood. In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men. Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men, perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability. (Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?) In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men, but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

Why is “women not holding the priesthood (as in receiving not priesthood conferral and office)” inherently a problem (I know some would make it a problem)?

 

Relatively-speaking, how is Relief Society not equal in responsibility and authority for women as the priesthood quorums are for men, since both organizations receive their responsibility and authority from God?

 

“Whom the Lord calls He qualifies” – I think this means that callings and spiritual gifts are not necessarily about who can do what, better.

[tld]

If you take the Relief Society out from under the control of the priesthood you take it out of the church.  The President of the Church is the presiding High Priest, everything in the church is under his stewardship.  Every organization in the church traces it's leadership, eventually, back to the church's presiding High Priest.  We would, in effect, have two churches.  One for men and one for women.

see http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V37N03_75.pdf

[ksfisher]

Because 15 men say that it isn't going to happen. The Relief Society could be removed from the oversight of the priesthood. This would require only a policy change. Ward Relief Society Presidents could start interviewing girls and young women for possible sexual indiscretions. These, just for starters, could be easily done, and then move on from there.

 

"All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to this priesthood."

D&C 107:5

 

It would require more than a policy change, it would require a change to scripture.

[tld]

Why is “women not holding the priesthood (as in receiving not priesthood conferral and office)” inherently a problem (I know some would make it a problem)?

 

Relatively-speaking, how is Relief Society not equal in responsibility and authority for women as the priesthood quorums are for men, since both organizations receive their responsibility and authority from God?

 

“Whom the Lord calls He qualifies” – I think this means that callings and spiritual gifts are not necessarily about who can do what, better.

The women's organization is not equal in authority to the men's organization because the men's organization controls the women's organization. In order to be equal, women should be able to choose their own leaders and make their own policy decisions. 

 

Each of us has different gifts. Why not take advantage of those gifts, such as in healing blessings.

[smac97]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood.

First, which is it? "Semi-autonomous" or removed from "the control of the priesthood?" These sound like mutually exclusive categories.

Second, was there ever a time in the Church in which the Relief Society was not "under the control of the priesthood?"

Third, what about the Church's other organizations, such as the youth programs (YW/YM), Primary and Sunday School? Do you propose that these organizations also be loosed to become "semi-autonomous" or removed from "the control of the priesthood?" 

Fourth, what about wards and stakes and their finances? Do you propose that they be returned to the status quo ante, with much more control over their finances, facilities, programs, etc.?

Fifth, if you are only proposing that the Relief Society be given autonomy (partial or complete, I'm not sure), could you explain why that organization merits autonomy when the other Church organizations do not?

Sixth, could you explain the need for autonomy from the priesthood?

Seventh, you seem to be proposing a reversion of the Church's correlation efforts which began in earnest during the 1960s (see here and here for some background). Is that a fair statement?  If so, how far do you propose the Church go?  Should the Church also ditch its efforts to correlate curriculum?  Should the Church return ownership and financial responsibility for local facilities (chapels, etc.) to the local level?

In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men.

By "equal in responsibility and authority" do you mean "having the same responsibility and authority" as the priesthood? If yes, then you are simply advocating for female ordination, right? If no, then please clarify what you mean.

Under your proposal would women be eligible for priesthood callings, such as bishop and stake president?

And if the RS is to be "equal in responsibility and authority," why not just abolish it and merge the women into the priesthood quorums?

Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men,

I am saddened when discussions like this devolve into demeaning gender-based stereotypes. We can extol the many virtues of LDS women (and there are many of them) without slurring the competency of LDS men.

perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability.

Um, what? You want "women" (all of them, presumably) to have the priesthood keys currently held only by the President of the Church?

(Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?)

No. But I think we can deny that giving the priesthood keys held by the presiding high priest to anyone else other than the presiding high priest is a good idea. That's a recipe for anarchy. I also CFR the scriptural basis for your proposal.

In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men,

We have an organization that is staffed by boys and men, but it serves the entirety of the Church.

but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

Again, please clarify your proposal. It sounds like a call for female ordination. Given the Church's statement issued on June 28, I am not sure such calls are appropriate at this point.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

Not going to happen. There is nothing in the Kingdom of God independent of the Priesthood.

[ksfisher]

see http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V37N03_75.pdf

 

The pdf is 34 pages long.  Are there any relevant points you'd like to bring out?

[tld]

"All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to this priesthood."

D&C 107:5

 

It would require more than a policy change, it would require a change to scripture.

Correct me if I am wrong, but D&C 107 speaks only of men. The rights of women are completely ignored. Organization of the Relief Society corrected some, but not all, of this inequity. Are you someone who is unwilling to share equal authority with women? As the article I gave a link too states, women's rights in the Church eroded during the 20th century. How can this downward spiral be corrected? I suggest that the path lies in increasing the authority of Relief Society and making Relief Society leaders responsible for establishing women's rights, especially when it comes to girls and women being interviewed for possible sexual indiscretion. 

[smac97]

Because 15 men say that it isn't going to happen.

First, those "15 men" did not say that female ordination "isn't going to happen." They spoke about the present circumstances. They did not say anything that forecloses the possibility of female ordination in the future (that "it isn't going to happen"). My sense is that female ordination will not happen simply because it's not part of God's plan. But I am open to a revelation to the contrary and would welcome it (though it would certainly require a lot of adjustment in the Church).

Second, those "15 men" are not just any "15 men." They are prophets and apostles. When they speak in their authoritative capacities, they are speaking as more than just "men."

The Relief Society could be removed from the oversight of the priesthood. This would require only a policy change.

No, it wouldn't. It would require revelation. It was established through and by the priesthood, and it only has its existence because of the priesthood. Its leaders have access to revelation, but only because they receive that access through the priesthood. Without the priesthood, the Relief Society would just be a social club, bereft of revelatory guidance from God.

And note that by "priesthood" I mean "priesthood." It is not synonymous with "men."

Ward Relief Society Presidents could start interviewing girls and young women for possible sexual indiscretions. These, just for starters, could be easily done, and then move on from there.

So RS presidents would become judges in Israel, which is a priesthood function, but this "would require only a policy change?"

That is utterly incorrect.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

Correct me if I am wrong, but D&C 107 speaks only of men. The rights of women are completely ignored. Organization of the Relief Society corrected some, but not all, of this inequity. Are you someone who is unwilling to share equal authority with women? As the article I gave a link too states, women's rights in the Church eroded during the 20th century. How can this downward spiral be corrected? I suggest that the path lies in increasing the authority of Relief Society and making Relief Society leaders responsible for establishing women's rights, especially when it comes to girls and women being interviewed for possible sexual indiscretion.

When God asks us for suggestions on how to run things I will pass you ideas along. Don't hold your breath.

[Sleeper Cell]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood. In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men. Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men, perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability. (Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?) In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men, but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

Why not simply have two separate churches?  One for men and the other for women?  

[tld]

Not going to happen. There is nothing in the Kingdom of God independent of the Priesthood.

Probably true as long as those in leadership positions agree with this and are unwilling to share some of their authority. But, gosh dang, women offering prayers in GC.

[tld]

When God asks us for suggestions on how to run things I will pass you ideas along. Don't hold your breath.

Thanks. Try to have a woman along with you to provide balance to the conversation.

[tld]

Why not simply have two separate churches?  One for men and the other for women?  

Or why not be creative and find a meaningful way to share responsibility? Don't need to throw the baby out with the bath.

[tld]

The pdf is 34 pages long.  Are there any relevant points you'd like to bring out?

Mainly how correlation has diminished the role of women in the Church.

[ksfisher]

Correct me if I am wrong, but D&C 107 speaks only of men. The rights of women are completely ignored. Organization of the Relief Society corrected some, but not all, of this inequity. Are you someone who is unwilling to share equal authority with women? As the article I gave a link too states, women's rights in the Church eroded during the 20th century. How can this downward spiral be corrected? I suggest that the path lies in increasing the authority of Relief Society and making Relief Society leaders responsible for establishing women's rights, especially when it comes to girls and women being interviewed for possible sexual indiscretion. 

 

I don't see anything in the scripture I cited that indicates that it is only applicable to men.  "All other authorities..." would seem to mean everything in the church, including bishops, nursery leaders, scout leaders, primary presidents, etc. 

 

Your charge that I'm unwilling to share equal authority with women would be disputed by my wife.  Your inference here is almost insulting.

 

As I said, the pdf you linked to is 34 pages long.  Do you have any relevant points that you'd like to bring out?

 

I believe that the changes made in the role of ward councils actually give women more authority in the church now than they ever have had.  Other inspired adjustments will probably be made in the future.

[CV75]

The women's organization is not equal in authority to the men's organization because the men's organization controls the women's organization. In order to be equal, women should be able to choose their own leaders and make their own policy decisions. 

The quorums are: “An organized group of men or young men who have the same office in the priesthood. https://www.lds.org/topics/quorum?lang=eng” On the other hand, “All adult women in the Church are members of Relief Society” https://www.lds.org/topics/relief-society?lang=eng” One organization is based on a member’s priesthood office and the other is based on a member’s age and gender.

 

The Relief Society “operates under the direction of priesthood leaders,” but in both organizations, it is the Lord, not the members, who chooses the leaders and defines their scope of practice, including policy-making decisions.

 

Each of us has different gifts. Why not take advantage of those gifts, such as in healing blessings.

A sister I know was given the gift of healing in her patriarchal blessing and uses it regularly. But now that I think of it, the gift of healing is not constrained by such formality as verbal pronouncements, anointing or laying-on of hands. Also, spiritual gifts are administered by the faith of the men and women who possess them. Spiritual blessings are not spiritual gifts but the intended outcome of the covenants administered by God through His delegated priesthood authority, which blessings are available to all (D&C 107:18, 19). Given that, ultimately, in what way is being “equal” truly important, and why is “women not holding the priesthood (as in receiving not priesthood conferral and office)” inherently a problem?

[Sleeper Cell]

Or why not be creative and find a meaningful way to share responsibility? Don't need to throw the baby out with the bath.

 

It sure beats throwing out the baby, while trying to keep the bathwater. 

[tld]

Smac97,

 

Some good questions. Mainly I started this thread as a topic of conversation. I don't have the answers. But I do see problems with the status quo. The leaders of the Church may need to come up with some innovations solutions to the gender problems confronting the Church, however they may go about doing this. Fortunately, for me, I am out of the loop.

[The Nehor]

Probably true as long as those in leadership positions agree with this and are unwilling to share some of their authority. But, gosh dang, women offering prayers in GC.

 

Yes, it's those filthy men making the rules and just pretending God is telling them how to run things. If you believe that then the church is not worth saving anyways and we should probably burn it down instead of worrying about equality. If God is in charge then it isn't the apostles making the rules.

 

Thanks. Try to have a woman along with you to provide balance to the conversation.

 

Can't. They have cooties and I might get infected.

[smac97]

Smac97,

 

Some good questions. Mainly I started this thread as a topic of conversation. I don't have the answers. But I do see problems with the status quo. The leaders of the Church may need to come up with some innovations solutions to the gender problems confronting the Church, however they may go about doing this. Fortunately, for me, I am out of the loop.

 

I understand.  I would like to better understand your proposal.  I would like you to construe my posts as inquiries, not combative challenges.  If you can do that, I would like to explore the ramifications of your proposal in further detail.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac