Calm Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Well, I use a cell phone to post here because I don't have a computer, so I have to use the mobile version of mormondialogue. The mobile version does not have any of the emoticons that I guess the full version has, so I just used some from an emoji keyboard that I downloaded from the App Store when I first got my phone. The animals and things are just one set of choices on the emoji keyboard. You can switch back and forth from the emoji keyboard to the regular letters keyboard.You needed though to have two of each or seven of the clean animals, whichever version you prefer.
Silhouette Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 You needed though to have two of each or seven of the clean animals, whichever version you prefer.LOL I figured that many emoticons would be going a bit overboard.... Get it? Overboard? Like falling off of a ship? Or an....ark.....or....um....yeah. 1
Silhouette Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 In my view the flood was global.I believe there is sufficient evidence that this was so, but even if there isn't it doesn't matter because the scriptures testify to it.Case closed as far as I'm concerned.I don't know about the evidence pointing to either thought regarding the Flood, as I'm not very well-read on it since I only just came across this thread this morning. But I'm with you in my belief that the scriptures on the topic are an accurate depiction of the nature of the Flood. 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 In my view the flood was global.I believe there is sufficient evidence that this was so, but even if there isn't it doesn't matter because the scriptures testify to it.Case closed as far as I'm concerned. Please read what I wrote, The scriptures are not clear about the nature of the Flood, the scriptures do say Noah's Flood covered the entire Earth, but the word "earth" can have many meanings, for example 3 Nephi 9:11 And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this landHelaman 14:27 "that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days"3 Nephi 8:17 "And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings"Alma 36:7 "whole earth did tremble beneath our fee" 3 Nephi 1:17 "all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished" "The early prophets and apostles frequently taught their beliefs regarding a global flood using the scriptures. In modern times a belief in a global flood event continues to be widely-held within the Church. A search for the full term "global flood" on the official Church website (www.lds.org) produces only a single reference in the January 1998 Ensign, although there are a number of references in other articles to the Flood being of a global nature even up to the present time. (see: Statements by General Authorities related to the Flood) Typically, references to the Flood are presented in the context of teaching some Gospel principle"http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood A 1998 Ensign article clearly endorses the Global Flood Theory, but not everything in church publications is official doctrine. Official Doctrine comes from the Scriptures, Articles of Faith, official declarations and proclamations. If a teaching does not come from the scriptures or an official church declaration, it is not official doctrine. For example, some publications say that there was "no blood" before the Fall, but that teaching is clearly not found in the scriptures. A student manual says, "When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations”https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-8-the-fall?lang=eng Again, "no blood" before the Fall is not found in the scriptures, it is not official doctrine.
Rob Osborn Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Please read what I wrote, The scriptures are not clear about the nature of the Flood, the scriptures do say Noah's Flood covered the entire Earth, but the word "earth" can have many meanings, for example 3 Nephi 9:11 And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this land Helaman 14:27 "that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days" 3 Nephi 8:17 "And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings" Alma 36:7 "whole earth did tremble beneath our fee" 3 Nephi 1:17 "all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished" "The early prophets and apostles frequently taught their beliefs regarding a global flood using the scriptures. In modern times a belief in a global flood event continues to be widely-held within the Church. A search for the full term "global flood" on the official Church website (www.lds.org) produces only a single reference in the January 1998 Ensign, although there are a number of references in other articles to the Flood being of a global nature even up to the present time. (see: Statements by General Authorities related to the Flood) Typically, references to the Flood are presented in the context of teaching some Gospel principle" http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood A 1998 Ensign article clearly endorses the Global Flood Theory, but not everything in church publications is official doctrine. Official Doctrine comes from the Scriptures, Articles of Faith, official declarations and proclamations. If a teaching does not come from the scriptures or an official church declaration, it is not official doctrine. For example, some publications say that there was "no blood" before the Fall, but that teaching is clearly not found in the scriptures. A student manual says, "When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-8-the-fall?lang=eng Again, "no blood" before the Fall is not found in the scriptures, it is not official doctrine. Its interesting that even though the scriptures do say the flood was global that you guys can still invent ways to go around it. 3
MormonFreeThinker Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Its interesting that even though the scriptures do say the flood was global that you guys can still invent ways to go around it. Where? Global?
Rob Osborn Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Where? Global? Take off your blinders and see.
MormonFreeThinker Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Take off your blinders and see. I did, that is why I no longer believe in a Global FLood. I used to believe in a Global Flood, but I now see clearly. 1
cinepro Posted November 21, 2014 Author Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) Please read what I wrote, The scriptures are not clear about the nature of the Flood, the scriptures do say Noah's Flood covered the entire Earth, but the word "earth" can have many meanings, for example "The early prophets and apostles frequently taught their beliefs regarding a global flood using the scriptures. In modern times a belief in a global flood event continues to be widely-held within the Church. A search for the full term "global flood" on the official Church website (www.lds.org) produces only a single reference in the January 1998 Ensign, although there are a number of references in other articles to the Flood being of a global nature even up to the present time. (see: Statements by General Authorities related to the Flood) Typically, references to the Flood are presented in the context of teaching some Gospel principle"http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood A 1998 Ensign article clearly endorses the Global Flood Theory, but not everything in church publications is official doctrine. Official Doctrine comes from the Scriptures, Articles of Faith, official declarations and proclamations. If a teaching does not come from the scriptures or an official church declaration, it is not official doctrine. For example, some publications say that there was "no blood" before the Fall, but that teaching is clearly not found in the scriptures. As has been pointed out before, the scriptures are clear about the scope of the flood. And in case they aren't, the Prophets and Apostles and official Church publications have clarified it again and again (quite consistently, too). It's also oddly ironic to argue that the Ensign should be ignored on the grounds that you think it isn't "official doctrine", while at the same time quoting the Fair Wiki. Oh well, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do. Edited November 21, 2014 by cinepro 2
thesometimesaint Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) As has been pointed out before, the scriptures are clear about the scope of the flood. And in case they aren't, the Prophets and Apostles and official Church publications have clarified it again and again (quite consistently, too). It's also oddly ironic to argue that the Ensign should be ignored on the grounds that you think it isn't "official doctrine", while at the same time quoting the Fair Wiki. Oh well, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do. They are any but clear, otherwise there would be little to no reason not to believe them. Then there is always the little problem of what is to be taken literally and what is not, flat earth, man will never be on the moon, and all the other nonsense. Edited November 21, 2014 by thesometimesaint
mnn727 Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) As has been pointed out before, the scriptures are clear about the scope of the flood. And in case they aren't, the Prophets and Apostles and official Church publications have clarified it again and again (quite consistently, too). It's also oddly ironic to argue that the Ensign should be ignored on the grounds that you think it isn't "official doctrine", while at the same time quoting the Fair Wiki. Oh well, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.Which takes us full circle all the way to the beginning of this thread to my comment that it takes mental gymnastics to believe in a global flood. Its just not logical in any sense as it makes us believe in a 'magical God' that somehow changes physical properties and then lies by obscuring the geological record. LDS do not believe in a magical or a lying God. I agree with Grundunza's Post #8 of this thread, a local story grew in the telling and eventually got "hollywoodized" Edited November 22, 2014 by mnn727 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) As has been pointed out before, the scriptures are clear about the scope of the flood. And in case they aren't, the Prophets and Apostles and official Church publications have clarified it again and again (quite consistently, too). It's also oddly ironic to argue that the Ensign should be ignored on the grounds that you think it isn't "official doctrine", while at the same time quoting the Fair Wiki. Oh well, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do. The Prophets and Apostles use scriptural language, but they have never clarified the nature of the Flood. What does "entire Earth" mean? It can have many meanings, please do not ignore. Alma 36:7 "whole earth did tremble beneath our feet"3 Nephi 1:17 "all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished" What about "no blood" before the Fall? Where does that come from? Edited November 22, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
Rivers Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 The Scriptures aren't science and history books. 1
Alan Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 In my experience if science/the philosophies of men say one thing and the scriptures say another, it is safer to go with the scriptures. 1
Flyonthewall Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Which takes us full circle all the way to the beginning of this thread to my comment that it takes mental gymnastics to believe in a global flood. Its just not logical in any sense as it makes us believe in a 'magical God' that somehow changes physical properties and then lies by obscuring the geological record. LDS do not believe in a magical or a lying God. I agree with Grundunza's Post #8 of this thread, a local story grew in the telling and eventually got "hollywoodized"Doesn't need to be a "magical God", but a God of miracles. I can see how miracles can be interpreted as magical though. And just because we cannot figure out how God performs miracles does not mean He lies about it. 1
mnn727 Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Doesn't need to be a "magical God", but a God of miracles. I can see how miracles can be interpreted as magical though.And just because we cannot figure out how God performs miracles does not mean He lies about it.By magical I mean someone who changes the very laws the world was set up under drastically - creating enough water to cover all the mountains would not be a miracle, it would be magical - ex-nihlo creation and we LDS do not believe that either.If the geological record clearly shows (as it does) there was no global flood, then by creating the geological record showing no global flood - God would be a liar. 1
Bobbieaware Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 By magical I mean someone who changes the very laws the world was set up under drastically - creating enough water to cover all the mountains would not be a miracle, it would be magical - ex-nihlo creation and we LDS do not believe that either.If the geological record clearly shows (as it does) there was no global flood, then by creating the geological record showing no global flood - God would be a liar.What do you believe is the greater and, more scientifically improbable of the following two miracles: God covering the earth with water without leaving scientifically verifiable evidence, or God recreating from inanimate dust (resurrection) billions of immortal superhumans in the twinkling of an eye? 2
thesometimesaint Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 What do you believe is the greater and, more scientifically improbable of the following two miracles: God covering the earth with water without leaving scientifically verifiable evidence, or God recreating from inanimate dust (resurrection) billions of immortal superhumans in the twinkling of an eye? Not falsifiable.
thesometimesaint Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 In my experience if science/the philosophies of men say one thing and the scriptures say another, it is safer to go with the scriptures. Be real careful there. 2
MormonFreeThinker Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) I am still waiting, where does the "no blood" before the Fall come from? Where is it in the scriptures? or official church statements? A student manual says, "When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-8-the-fall?lang=eng Why do Global Flood theorists ignore that the word "earth" can have many meanings? 3 Nephi 9:11 And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this landHelaman 14:27 "that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days"3 Nephi 8:17 "And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings"Alma 36:7 "whole earth did tremble beneath our fee" 3 Nephi 1:17 "all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished" Edited November 22, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker 1
mnn727 Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 What do you believe is the greater and, more scientifically improbable of the following two miracles: God covering the earth with water without leaving scientifically verifiable evidence, or God recreating from inanimate dust (resurrection) billions of immortal superhumans in the twinkling of an eye?Since LDS do not believe that it's a straw man argument
teddyaware Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Since LDS do not believe that it's a straw man argument Make yourself clear. Are you trying to say that the Latter-day Saints don't believe in the worldwide flood, don't believe the universal resurrection of the dead into immortality, or that they don't believe in either of these? (the post you responded to was sent by my wife) Edited November 22, 2014 by teddyaware
teddyaware Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) I am still waiting, where does the "no blood" before the Fall come from? Where is it in the scriptures? or official church statements? A student manual says, "When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-8-the-fall?lang=eng Why do Global Flood theorists ignore that the word "earth" can have many meanings? 3 Nephi 9:11 And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this landHelaman 14:27 "that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days"3 Nephi 8:17 "And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings"Alma 36:7 "whole earth did tremble beneath our fee" 3 Nephi 1:17 "all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished" The scriptures say the quaking of the earth at the time of Christ's death was felt in ancient America, felt on the distant isles of the sea and felt halfway around the world in the Holy Land -- that covers much of the earth. It is therefore likely that the quaking was felt elsewhere around the world but not necessarily with the same cataclysmically destructive affect. Isn't it fun when one open's up his mind to some free thinking? Edited November 22, 2014 by teddyaware 2
MormonFreeThinker Posted November 23, 2014 Posted November 23, 2014 The scriptures say the quaking of the earth at the time of Christ's death was felt in ancient America, felt on the distant isles of the sea and felt halfway around the world in the Holy Land -- that covers much of the earth. It is therefore likely that the quaking was felt elsewhere around the world but not necessarily with the same cataclysmically destructive affect. Isn't it fun when one open's up his mind to some free thinking? Helaman 14:27 "that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days"
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