Noah's Flood And "mental Gymanstics" - Local Flooders Wanted!

[mnn727]

I'm wondering if this is some sort of stalling tactic on your part because you're trying to avoid answering my question. It's obvious you're an intelligent and insightful LDS person, therefore I'm quite sure you know what I'm trying to say and that I simply made use of one graphic word (superhuman) in order to make my point of argument more compelling. So I will dissect and make the line in dispute more plain to your understanding so that you will, hopefully, answer my original question.

 

Stalling tactic?! Sorry but I do sleep at night and have a life outside of this board.

 

 

1) As a Latter-day Saint, you must surely believe that in the resurrection billions of human bodies, that have long since crumbled to lifeless dust, will by the power of God be raised from that state of lifeless dust back to a state of life as human beings with tangible bodies of flesh and bone. If this statement is incorrect, please show me where I'm in error? 

2) As a Latter-day Saint, you must surely believe all the billions human beings who ever lived will receive their now deceased human bodies back as an immortal possession in the glorious resurrection from the dead. If this statement is doctrinally incorrect, please show me where I'm in error?

 

 

You err in thinking He will resurrect their old bodies(In many cases bodies no longer exist or even parts of bodies), the dead currently have spirit bodies and will get perfected bodies. Also  nowhere in any scripture does it say everyone will be resurrected at the same instant, in fact according to the new Testament there has already been a resurrection of those dead at the time of Christ.

 

 

3) Compared to the fallen state in which we now live, in the resurrection we fallen mortals will be superhuman (substitute the expression 'spiritually glorified' if you prefer) compared to what we are now based on the fact that we will no longer be subject to the fallen nature, will have conquered physical and spiritual death through the atonement (except for the sons of perdition), and will be filled with the gifts and powers of God to a far greater degree than we now enjoy. If this statement is incorrect, please show me where I'm in error?

 

Not in error - however your personal belief in how that happens is not supported by any doctrine (or any statement I am aware of)

 

4) The resurrection from the dead into immortality can and will happen "in the twinkling of an eye," as it were, as amply demonstrated by the fact that the scriptures testify multitudes of the dead were simultaneously resurrected at the very moment of the resurrection of Christ. So as the scriptures testify, the resurrection from the dead is a speedy process and that at the sounding of the trump of God, at the time of the last resurrection just prior to the time of the final judgement, billions of once dead human beings will be quickly raised from the dead to stand before God.  If I'm doctrinally incorrect with this statement, please show me my error.

 

 In "a twinkling of an eye" - we have a disagreement over Paul's words there, but then we do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible

Edited November 23, 2014 by mnn727

[teddyaware]

Stalling tactic?! Sorry but I do sleep at night and have a life outside of this board.

 

 

 

You err in thinking He will resurrect their old bodies(In many cases bodies no longer exist or even parts of bodies), the dead currently have spirit bodies and will get perfected bodies. Also  nowhere in any scripture does it say everyone will be resurrected at the same instant, in fact according to the new Testament there has already been a resurrection of those dead at the time of Christ.

 

Not in error - however your personal belief in how that happens is not supported by any doctrine (or any statement I am aware of)

 

 In "a twinkling of an eye" - we have a disagreement over Paul's words there, but then we do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible

 

Why and how in the world could you claim that in my post I was indicating there is only one time of resurrection when in the very same post I quite clearly stated there was a resurrection of multitudes at the time of Christ's resurrection and that there is another time of or resurrection just prior to the final judgement? Will you kindly reread my post and then acknowledge in writing that you have misunderstood the plain meaning of my words?

 

Do you not also agree that the resurrection will happen quickly, if not instantaneously, for each individual, as it occurred with Christ? Or do you believe the resurrection of each body will take a protracted period of time to accomplish.

 

I'm wondering if you're missing the plain meaning of my words because you're trying too hard to find fault so that you won't have to answer my initial question, which I'll now ask again in simpler terms:

 

What miracle do you believe would be more difficult for God to perform -- covering the earth with water or the raising of His many billions of earthly children from the dead to immortal glory?

[LinuxGal]

All life under heaven was not destroyed, Noah and his ark were under heaven, do you agree? What about fish? Do you agree that fish are under heaven? A region is under heaven, so life in the region was destroyed. 

 

 

No one claims that the fish died in the flood, but I fail to see how that can be construed to imply the disaster was regional and not global.  All air-breathing life under heaven, globally, was destroyed.

[Calm]

Globally….

 

Fresh water fish would have died due to saltwater from the oceans with the mixing of all the waters, possibly saltwater fish would die as well if they were particularly sensitive to a particular chemical balance.

[LinuxGal]

Globally….

 

Fresh water fish would have died due to saltwater from the oceans with the mixing of all the waters, possibly saltwater fish would die as well if they were particularly sensitive to a particular chemical balance.

 

Presumably the same miracle that brought all the wild animals to the ark two-by-two and spend a year indoors would have allowed the fish to thrive in a different pH.   I dunno, it's not my story, I'm just following out the consequences of it.

[MormonFreeThinker]

No one claims that the fish died in the flood, but I fail to see how that can be construed to imply the disaster was regional and not global.  All air-breathing life under heaven, globally, was destroyed.

 

You originally said that all life was destroyed. What about Noah and his family? Do you agree they were under heaven? 

 

I am sorry, but belief in a Global Flood is not required, and there is power scientific evidence against a Global Flood. 

 

I know that science has not verified some miracles, but there are just too many evidences against the Global flood. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[thesometimesaint]

Geysers aren't what I had in mind, but they could be a part of it. I was thinking what if all underground water tables came to the surface, not just ones we know about but ones we may not know about.

I could not tell you what may have caused it, other than God. Once they served God's purpose thy would have retreated back underground.

I am not set in my thinking on a global or local flood but I do not eliminate from possibility something God has done simply because science cannot explain it.

 

Far be it from me to say that we know everything there is to know. However most of the water inside the earth is not in the form of liquid water it is in the form of hydrates. Very strong hydrogen and oxygen atoms bound to silicon and other heavy elements.

 

I think it is a mistake to assign anything to God simply because you(we) don't understand it at present. For me science is the HOW God did it, and to throw up my hands and claim something can't be known because God did it doesn't advance our learning and in fact limits it. As Galileo once said "Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle".

[LinuxGal]

 

I am sorry, but belief in a Global Flood is not required, and there is power scientific evidence against a Global Flood. 

 

Make no mistake, I don't believe in any Noachide flood, local or global, my thing is making sure that Bible believers don't wiggle out of the consequences of the text.   Starting with a known date, the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE, and working backwards using the spans of the reigns of kings, etc.  I come up with 2507 BCE for the date of the flood.  The FIfty Dynasty of Egypt dealt with yearly floods of the Nile back then, but never had to deal with a global flood.

[mnn727]

 

 

What miracle do you believe would be more difficult for God to perform -- covering the earth with water or the raising of His many billions of earthly children from the dead to immortal glory?

 

I don't consider the 2nd a miracle, at least any more of a miracle than it was when we got our bodies the first time.

Again, we don't believe in a Magical God - ex-nihlo creation has been preached against since Joseph Smiths day, so where did all that water come from (and go to)? Other people in this thread have torn asunder the waters from the deep and the ice shell around the Earth theory.

 

Again, the mental gymnastics are totally unnecessary - just let go of the 'global flood' story and understand that in the days before satellites, telescopes, binoculars, and weathermen, a large local flood would look to be worldwide and stories always grow in the telling.

Edited November 24, 2014 by mnn727

[mnn727]

Make no mistake, I don't believe in any Noachide flood, local or global, my thing is making sure that Bible believers don't wiggle out of the consequences of the text.   

 

"Bible Believers" please define what you mean by that term. The Bible was never meant to be a scientific text nor even a history text either. It was written by Men, not by God.

[LinuxGal]

"Bible Believers" please define what you mean by that term. The Bible was never meant to be a scientific text nor even a history text either. It was written by Men, not by God.

 

That's true, and my only objection is when the people who believe it is a scientific text attempt to make it part of the curricula of public schools, whether it goes by the name creationism, or scientific creationism, or intelligent design.

[cinepro]

"Bible Believers" please define what you mean by that term. The Bible was never meant to be a scientific text nor even a history text either. It was written by Men, not by God.

That may be true, but the Church certainly has a history of viewing it that way.

[mnn727]

That's true, and my only objection is when the people who believe it is a scientific text attempt to make it part of the curricula of public schools, whether it goes by the name creationism, or scientific creationism, or intelligent design.

You will not find the LDS Church doing that - some members may wish it were so however.

[mnn727]

That may be true, but the Church certainly has a history of viewing it that way.

or at least some members do including some leaders however I doubt you'll find its a doctrinal viewpoint.

The Church brought a lot of Protestant beliefs with them in the early days, its taken 180 years so far to purge many of them (and we have a ways to go) and many members still hold onto them.

Edited November 24, 2014 by mnn727

[bcuzbcuz]

Make no mistake, I don't believe in any Noachide flood, local or global, my thing is making sure that Bible believers don't wiggle out of the consequences of the text.   Starting with a known date, the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE, and working backwards using the spans of the reigns of kings, etc.  I come up with 2507 BCE for the date of the flood.  The FIfty Dynasty of Egypt dealt with yearly floods of the Nile back then, but never had to deal with a global flood.

I agree.

The pyramids of Khufu (Cheops), Khafra (Chephren) would all have bathtub rings around them from the million or so inhabitants of Egypt at that time, following their drowning and decomposition. The step pyramid of Djoser (Netjerikhet) would have collapsed. Djoser's pyramid in particular, with exquisite paintings on plaster walls below ground level, would be waterlogged and the plaster walls would have dissolved.

Menkaura (Mycerinus) was the king at the time you state. He died 2503 BCE, 4 years after the flood. He wouldn't have a completed pyramid since all the workers would have drowned in the global flood.

Sahura, who lived 25 years after the flood, would have built his sun temple in vain. The population of Egypt would have only numbered in the hundreds.

[mnn727]

Sahura, who lived 25 years after the flood, would have built his sun temple in vain. The population of Egypt would have only numbered in the hundreds.

hundreds is being very generous, perhaps a dozen or less.

[bcuzbcuz]

hundreds is being very generous, perhaps a dozen or less.

You´re undoubtedly right.

[LinuxGal]

hundreds is being very generous, perhaps a dozen or less.

 

This issue cropped up before the flood as well.  After Cain left with his wife to dwell east of Eden, he was not content to just build a Little House on the Prairie, no, he built an entire city called Enoch. After he begat a son, this city attained a population of three.

[LinuxGal]

Sahura, who lived 25 years after the flood, would have built his sun temple in vain. The population of Egypt would have only numbered in the hundreds.

 

"And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon's temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine." 

 

That was pretty good, considering that the folks who were with Nephi at the time probably numbered about twenty.

[mnn727]

I don't consider the 2nd a miracle, at least any more of a miracle than it was when we got our bodies the first time.

Again, we don't believe in a Magical God - ex-nihlo creation has been preached against since Joseph Smiths day, so where did all that water come from (and go to)? Other people in this thread have torn asunder the waters from the deep and the ice shell around the Earth theory.

 

Again, the mental gymnastics are totally unnecessary - just let go of the 'global flood' story and understand that in the days before satellites, telescopes, binoculars, and weathermen, a large local flood would look to be worldwide and stories always grow in the telling.

 Here is just a few of the miracles God would have had to do to reconcile the flood:

 

Force a wooden ark 450' long to be stable and not leak. 

Gather animals from different continants.

Make the animals get along - not eat each other.

Make the Ark tardis like (bigger on the inside) to hold all the different animals of the Earth

Create massive quanities of water (enough to cover the Earth to a depth of 17 cubits) and then get rid of it.

Make salt water fish and fresh water fish able to survive in the same (flood) environment.

Make sure the ark does not fill with manure a task too great for 8 people.

Provide enough food for all the animals including the carnivores.

Grow all manner of plants and tree's in a matter of weeks so the animals could feed when let off the ark.

Move animals to different continants after the flood.

Have 4 couples breed enough additional people that you have a city capable of  building the Tower of Bable in just (approx) 100 years.

 

Or you could just admit the story is illogical as claimed and it wasn't the whole earth.

Edited November 24, 2014 by mnn727

[cinepro]

"And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon's temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine." 

 

That was pretty good, considering that the folks who were with Nephi at the time probably numbered about twenty.

 

You're not counting all the natives who were here when the Lehites arrived, many of whom promptly joined up with the new settlers and converted to their religion and adopted their language and culture.  But not in any way that would be discernible to modern researchers.

[mnn727]

 

 Here is just a few of the miracles God would have had to do to reconcile the flood:

 

Force a wooden ark 450' long to be stable and not leak. 

Gather animals from different continants.

Make the animals get along - not eat each other.

Make the Ark tardis like (bigger on the inside) to hold all the different animals of the Earth

Create massive quanities of water (enough to cover the Earth to a depth of 17 cubits) and then get rid of it.

Make salt water fish and fresh water fish able to survive in the same (flood) environment.

Make sure the ark does not fill with manure a task too great for 8 people.

Provide enough food for all the animals including the carnivores.

Grow all manner of plants and tree's in a matter of weeks so the animals could feed when let off the ark.

Move animals to different continants after the flood.

Have 4 couples breed enough additional people that you have a city capable of  building the Tower of Bable in just (approx) 100 years.

 

Or you could just admit the story is illogical as claimed and it wasn't the whole earth.

 

A couple more miracles necessary (These 3 also would make God into a liar by Him switching physical records to not show a global flood):

 

Make the geological record not show a global flood.

Make ice core samples not show a global flood.

Make tree ring structure not show a global flood.

[LinuxGal]

You're not counting all the natives who were here when the Lehites arrived, many of whom promptly joined up with the new settlers and converted to their religion and adopted their language and culture.  But not in any way that would be discernible to modern researchers.

 

Is that revelation given in the BoM or hiding between the lines?

[mnn727]

Is that revelation given in the BoM or hiding between the lines?

Its revelation (Outside the BoM) and its also common sense.

[LinuxGal]

Its revelation (Outside the BoM) and its also common sense.

 

Then I humbly ask you to steer me to a source of this revelation, because in my studies, as far as I can tell, the CoJCoLDS holds the Lamanites to be the forebears of all the native Americans.