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Noah's Flood And "mental Gymanstics" - Local Flooders Wanted!

cinepro

By cinepro
in General Discussions

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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

Posted
Posted

Well the Jaredites took with them old world species of animals and plants and so we should be able to find where they went by studying the dirty and fuana.

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted (edited)

Well the Jaredites took with them old world species of animals and plants and so we should be able to find where they went by studying the dirty and fuana.

 

That would work if they took Old World species that were indigenous to only the Old World and if we knew exactly where the Jaredites were in the New World. We don't know.

Edited by thesometimesaint
Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

It is doesn't make your interpretation of it automatically literal true either.

 

In the Book of Mormon, the Jaredites are the descendants of Jared, his brother, their immediate family, and their friends. At the time of the Tower of Babel, when the tongues of all nations were confounded, the Lord acceded to the desires of Jared such that his people's language was not confounded. They were also granted a land of promise.The Lord guided these people through the wilderness, and were eventually directed to cross the sea in barges..

These vessels were sealed and watertight and able to be swamped by waves without sinking. Air was obtained from outside the vessels as needed. They also brought with them animals and food.

Yes, and in the Old Testament there was this Guy who was named Noah. Noah had three sons. God called upon Noah to tell the people to repent of die in a flood. The people didn't listen. God commanded Noah to build an ark. Noah built the ark and God brought unto Noah land animals of every kind and sealed them and Noah and his family in the ark. Then the floods came and covered the whole earth and all that lived on the dry land died.

1
thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted (edited)

Yes, and in the Old Testament there was this Guy who was named Noah. Noah had three sons. God called upon Noah to tell the people to repent of die in a flood. The people didn't listen. God commanded Noah to build an ark. Noah built the ark and God brought unto Noah land animals of every kind and sealed them and Noah and his family in the ark. Then the floods came and covered the whole earth and all that lived on the dry land died.

 

Yes and the  world is flat and round [disk], covered by the great solid dome of the firmament which was held up by mountain pillars, (Job 26:11; 37:18). The blue color of the sky is because the chaotic waters that the firmament separated from the earth (Gen. 1:7). The earth is surrounded by waters above and below (Gen. 1:6,7; cf. Psalms 24:2; 148:4, Deut. 5. The firmament is substantial; it had pillars (Job 26:11) and foundations (2 Sam. 22.  When the windows of it were opened, rain fell (Gen. 7:11-12; 8:2). The sun, moon, and stars moved across or were fixed in the firmament (Gen. 1:14-19; Ps. 19:4,6). It was also the abode of the birds (Gen. 1:20; Deut. 4:17). Within the earth lay Sheol, the realm of the dead (Num. 16:30-33; Isa. 14:9,15).

 

For more funny science in the Bible.

SEE http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

 

I know I can hear it now "but those are Atheists arguments". If your faith is so fragile that they can't withstand criticism from disbelievers, how on God's green earth do you expect it to withstand criticism from believers.

Edited by thesometimesaint
1
thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Funny how you totally believe one story but then completely mock another story.

 

I never said I believed in Evolution. I don't believe in it. I have repeated said that I accept it as the best answer as to how God did it.

Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted (edited)

I never said I believed in Evolution. I don't believe in it. I have repeated said that I accept it as the best answer as to how God did it.

Thats a contradiction. How can one say they dont believe in evolution in one breath and in the next state otherwise that they accept evolution as the best answer?

Thats the same thing as saying "I don't believe God exists but I do have faith that God does exist."

Edited by Rob Osborn
thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Thats a contradiction. How can one say they dont believe in evolution in one breath and in the next state otherwise that they accept evolution as the best answer?

Thats the same thing as saying "I don't believe God exists but I do have faith that God does exist."

 

No it is not. I have repeatedly shown you where scientists come in every flavor of religious belief there is. It is simply your unwarranted assumptions that is driving this disagreement on what religion and science actually have to tell us about our world.  I find it kinda neat that God loves all of his creations, to give some of them the gift of life to meet the full measure of their creation, and the opportunity for me to become like him.

carbon dioxide Grand Master

carbon dioxide

Posted
Posted

I don't believe the flood was local.  Lots of local floods have occurred in the world.  What would make this flood any different.  Why contruct an ark or bring animals to the ark when one can just walk out of the danger zone of the flood?

 

I don't believe the flood was completely global.  How could human and animal populations rebound so fast after all life on earth except in the ark was destroyed.  How did the animals that are native to the Amazon get back to the Amazon after the flood.  How long did it take the sloath to get back to their natual settings.  The scriptures don't demand it to be global.  The same phrases that one could use to justifiy a global flood in Genesis 6:17 and Genesis 7:19-24 can be found in other places in the Bible that clearly are not global in nature.

 

Exodus 10:14-15: "And the locust went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such.  For they covered the face of the whole earth..."

1 Kings 10:24: "And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart."

Jeremiah 15:10: "Woe is me, my mother, that thou hast borne me a man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth!..."

Jeremiah 50:23: "How is the hammer [babylon] of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!

Jeremiah 51:7: "Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad."

Isaiah 23:17: "And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth."

Daniel 2:39: "And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass [Greece], which shall bear rule over all the earth."

Luke 2:1: "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed."

Acts 19:27: "So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth."

Romans 1:8: "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

 

So I will take the middle ground. Not so big that it destroyed all life including human life on Earth but big enough that Noah could not avoid it and lots of species of animals needed to survive it.  Probably caused by multiple hits of asteriods hitting the oceans.  Sending large waves hundreds of feet tall into the land (like in the show Deep Impact) and the heat from the impacts creating huge storms that caused lots of big storms over the whole planet. 

 

There is some evidence of this from an article I found many years ago.

 

"Meteor clue to end of Middle East civilizations" By Robert Matthews, 04/11/2001 Daily Telegraph

"SCIENTISTS have found the first evidence that a devastating meteor impact in the Middle East might have triggered the mysterious collapse of civilizations more than 4,000 years ago.

Studies of satellite images of southern Iraq have revealed a two-mile-wide circular depression which scientists say bears all the hallmarks of an impact crater. If confirmed, it would point to the Middle East being struck by a meteor with the violence equivalent to hundreds of nuclear bombs

Today's crater lies on what would have been shallow sea 4,000 years ago, and any impact would have caused devastating fires and flooding.

The catastrophic effect of these could explain the mystery of why so many early cultures went into sudden decline around 2300 BC.

They include the demise of the Akkad culture of central Iraq, with its mysterious semi-mythological emperor Sargon; the end of the fifth dynasty of Egypt's Old Kingdom, following the building of the Great Pyramids and the sudden disappearance of hundreds of early settlements in the Holy Land.

Until now, archaeologists have put forward a host of separate explanations for these events, from local wars to environmental changes.  Recently, some astronomers have suggested that meteor impacts could explain such historical mysteries.

The crater's faint outline was found by Dr Sharad Master, a geologist at the University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, on satellite images of the Al 'Amarah region, about 10 miles north-west of the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates and home of the Marsh Arabs.

"It was a purely accidental discovery," Dr Master told The Telegraph last week. "I was reading a magazine article about the canal-building projects of Saddam Hussein, and there was a photograph showing lots of formations - one of which was very, very circular."

Detailed analysis of other satellite images taken since the mid-1980s showed that for many years the crater contained a small lake.

The draining of the region, as part of Saddam's campaign against the Marsh Arabs, has since caused the lake to recede, revealing a ring-like ridge inside the larger bowl-like depression - a classic feature of meteor impact craters.

The crater also appears to be, in geological terms, very recent.  Dr Master said: "The sediments in this region are very young, so whatever caused the crater-like structure, it must have happened within the past 6,000 years."

Reporting his finding in the latest issue of the journal Meteoritics & Planetary Science, Dr Master suggests that a recent meteor impact is the most plausible explanation for the structure.

A survey of the crater itself could reveal tell-tale melted rock. "If we could find fragments of impact glass, we could date them using radioactive dating techniques," he said.

A date of around 2300 BC for the impact may also cast new light on the legend of Gilgamesh, dating from the same period. The legend talks of "the Seven Judges of Hell", who raised their torches, lighting the land with flame, and a storm that turned day into night, "smashed the land like a cup", and flooded the
area.
The discovery of the crater has sparked great interest among scientists.

Dr Benny Peiser, who lectures on the effects of meteor impacts at John Moores University, Liverpool, said it was one of the most significant discoveries in recent years and would corroborate research he and others have done.

He said that craters recently found in Argentina date from around the same period - suggesting that the Earth may have been hit by a shower of large meteors at about the same time."

 

 

And a similar article I found around the same time

 

Yahoo Daily News  Tuesday November 13, 2001 Comets, Meteors & Myth: New Evidence for Toppled Civilizations and Biblical Tales By Robert Roy Britt, Senior Science Writer, SPACE.com

"Biblical stories, apocalyptic visions, ancient art and scientific data all seem to intersect at around 2350 B.C., when one or more catastrophic events wiped out several advanced societies in Europe, Asia and Africa....

"The Epic of Gilgamesh describes the fire, brimstone and flood of possibly mythical events. Omens predicting the Akkadian collapse preserve a record that "many stars were falling from the sky." The "Curse of Akkad," dated to about 2200 B.C., speaks of "flaming potsherds raining from the sky."

"Roughly 2000 years later, the Jewish astronomer Rabbi bar Nachmani created what could be considered the first impact theory: That Noah's Flood was triggered by two "stars" that fell from the sky. "When God decided to bring about the Flood, He took two stars from Khima, threw them on Earth, and brought about the Flood."

"Mounting hard evidence collected from tree rings, soil layers and even dust that long ago settled to the ocean floor indicates there were widespread environmental nightmares in the Near East during the Early Bronze Age: Abrupt cooling of the climate, sudden floods and surges from the seas, huge earthquakes...

"One or more devastating impacts could have rocked the planet, chilled the air, and created unthinkable tsunamis - ocean waves hundreds of feet high...

"If it [the impact crater in Iraq] were a comet, the impact would have occurred on what was once a shallow sea, triggering massive flooding following the fire generated by the object's partial vaporization as it screamed through the atmosphere. The comet would have plunged through the water and dug into the earth below. ...

"[Astronomer Bill Napier] and his colleagues have been arguing since 1982 that such events are possible. And, he says, it might have happened right around the time the first urban civilizations were crumbling.

"Napier thinks a comet called Encke, discovered in 1786, is the remnant of a larger comet that broke apart 5,000 years ago. Large chunks and vast clouds of smaller debris were cast into space. Napier said it's possible that Earth ran through that material during the Early Bronze Age.

"The night sky would have been lit up for years by a fireworks-like display of comet fragments and dust vaporizing upon impact with Earth's atmosphere. The Sun would have struggled to shine through the debris. Napier has tied the possible event to a cooling of the climate, measured in tree rings, that ran from 2354-2345 B.C. ...

"For every crater discovered on land, we should expect two oceanic impacts with even worse consequences," he [benny Peiser, a social anthropologist who studies such impacts] said.

 "Tsunamis generated in deep water can rise even taller when they reach a shore..."

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

I don't believe the flood was local.  Lots of local floods have occurred in the world.  What would make this flood any different.  Why contruct an ark or bring animals to the ark when one can just walk out of the danger zone of the flood?

 

I don't believe the flood was completely global.  How could human and animal populations rebound so fast after all life on earth except in the ark was destroyed.  How did the animals that are native to the Amazon get back to the Amazon after the flood.  How long did it take the sloath to get back to their natual settings.  The scriptures don't demand it to be global.  The same phrases that one could use to justifiy a global flood in Genesis 6:17 and Genesis 7:19-24 can be found in other places in the Bible that clearly are not global in nature.

 

Exodus 10:14-15: "And the locust went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such.  For they covered the face of the whole earth..."

1 Kings 10:24: "And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart."

Jeremiah 15:10: "Woe is me, my mother, that thou hast borne me a man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth!..."

Jeremiah 50:23: "How is the hammer [babylon] of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!

Jeremiah 51:7: "Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad."

Isaiah 23:17: "And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth."

Daniel 2:39: "And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass [Greece], which shall bear rule over all the earth."

Luke 2:1: "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed."

Acts 19:27: "So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth."

Romans 1:8: "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

 

So I will take the middle ground. Not so big that it destroyed all life including human life on Earth but big enough that Noah could not avoid it and lots of species of animals needed to survive it.  Probably caused by multiple hits of asteriods hitting the oceans.  Sending large waves hundreds of feet tall into the land (like in the show Deep Impact) and the heat from the impacts creating huge storms that caused lots of big storms over the whole planet. 

 

There is some evidence of this from an article I found many years ago.

 

"Meteor clue to end of Middle East civilizations" By Robert Matthews, 04/11/2001 Daily Telegraph

"SCIENTISTS have found the first evidence that a devastating meteor impact in the Middle East might have triggered the mysterious collapse of civilizations more than 4,000 years ago.

Studies of satellite images of southern Iraq have revealed a two-mile-wide circular depression which scientists say bears all the hallmarks of an impact crater. If confirmed, it would point to the Middle East being struck by a meteor with the violence equivalent to hundreds of nuclear bombs

Today's crater lies on what would have been shallow sea 4,000 years ago, and any impact would have caused devastating fires and flooding.

The catastrophic effect of these could explain the mystery of why so many early cultures went into sudden decline around 2300 BC.

They include the demise of the Akkad culture of central Iraq, with its mysterious semi-mythological emperor Sargon; the end of the fifth dynasty of Egypt's Old Kingdom, following the building of the Great Pyramids and the sudden disappearance of hundreds of early settlements in the Holy Land.

Until now, archaeologists have put forward a host of separate explanations for these events, from local wars to environmental changes.  Recently, some astronomers have suggested that meteor impacts could explain such historical mysteries.

The crater's faint outline was found by Dr Sharad Master, a geologist at the University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, on satellite images of the Al 'Amarah region, about 10 miles north-west of the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates and home of the Marsh Arabs.

"It was a purely accidental discovery," Dr Master told The Telegraph last week. "I was reading a magazine article about the canal-building projects of Saddam Hussein, and there was a photograph showing lots of formations - one of which was very, very circular."

Detailed analysis of other satellite images taken since the mid-1980s showed that for many years the crater contained a small lake.

The draining of the region, as part of Saddam's campaign against the Marsh Arabs, has since caused the lake to recede, revealing a ring-like ridge inside the larger bowl-like depression - a classic feature of meteor impact craters.

The crater also appears to be, in geological terms, very recent.  Dr Master said: "The sediments in this region are very young, so whatever caused the crater-like structure, it must have happened within the past 6,000 years."

Reporting his finding in the latest issue of the journal Meteoritics & Planetary Science, Dr Master suggests that a recent meteor impact is the most plausible explanation for the structure.

A survey of the crater itself could reveal tell-tale melted rock. "If we could find fragments of impact glass, we could date them using radioactive dating techniques," he said.

A date of around 2300 BC for the impact may also cast new light on the legend of Gilgamesh, dating from the same period. The legend talks of "the Seven Judges of Hell", who raised their torches, lighting the land with flame, and a storm that turned day into night, "smashed the land like a cup", and flooded the

area.

The discovery of the crater has sparked great interest among scientists.

Dr Benny Peiser, who lectures on the effects of meteor impacts at John Moores University, Liverpool, said it was one of the most significant discoveries in recent years and would corroborate research he and others have done.

He said that craters recently found in Argentina date from around the same period - suggesting that the Earth may have been hit by a shower of large meteors at about the same time."

 

 

And a similar article I found around the same time

 

Yahoo Daily News  Tuesday November 13, 2001 Comets, Meteors & Myth: New Evidence for Toppled Civilizations and Biblical Tales By Robert Roy Britt, Senior Science Writer, SPACE.com

"Biblical stories, apocalyptic visions, ancient art and scientific data all seem to intersect at around 2350 B.C., when one or more catastrophic events wiped out several advanced societies in Europe, Asia and Africa....

"The Epic of Gilgamesh describes the fire, brimstone and flood of possibly mythical events. Omens predicting the Akkadian collapse preserve a record that "many stars were falling from the sky." The "Curse of Akkad," dated to about 2200 B.C., speaks of "flaming potsherds raining from the sky."

"Roughly 2000 years later, the Jewish astronomer Rabbi bar Nachmani created what could be considered the first impact theory: That Noah's Flood was triggered by two "stars" that fell from the sky. "When God decided to bring about the Flood, He took two stars from Khima, threw them on Earth, and brought about the Flood."

"Mounting hard evidence collected from tree rings, soil layers and even dust that long ago settled to the ocean floor indicates there were widespread environmental nightmares in the Near East during the Early Bronze Age: Abrupt cooling of the climate, sudden floods and surges from the seas, huge earthquakes...

"One or more devastating impacts could have rocked the planet, chilled the air, and created unthinkable tsunamis - ocean waves hundreds of feet high...

"If it [the impact crater in Iraq] were a comet, the impact would have occurred on what was once a shallow sea, triggering massive flooding following the fire generated by the object's partial vaporization as it screamed through the atmosphere. The comet would have plunged through the water and dug into the earth below. ...

"[Astronomer Bill Napier] and his colleagues have been arguing since 1982 that such events are possible. And, he says, it might have happened right around the time the first urban civilizations were crumbling.

"Napier thinks a comet called Encke, discovered in 1786, is the remnant of a larger comet that broke apart 5,000 years ago. Large chunks and vast clouds of smaller debris were cast into space. Napier said it's possible that Earth ran through that material during the Early Bronze Age.

"The night sky would have been lit up for years by a fireworks-like display of comet fragments and dust vaporizing upon impact with Earth's atmosphere. The Sun would have struggled to shine through the debris. Napier has tied the possible event to a cooling of the climate, measured in tree rings, that ran from 2354-2345 B.C. ...

"For every crater discovered on land, we should expect two oceanic impacts with even worse consequences," he [benny Peiser, a social anthropologist who studies such impacts] said.

 "Tsunamis generated in deep water can rise even taller when they reach a shore..."

 

I'm fine with a massive albeit regional flood.

  • 5 months later...
MormonFreeThinker Mentor

MormonFreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)
The scriptures are not clear about the nature of the Flood, the scriptures do say Noah's Flood covered the entire Earth, but the word "earth" can have many meanings, for example 

 

3 Nephi 9:11 And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this land

Helaman 14:27 "that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days"

3 Nephi 8:17 "And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings"

Alma 36:7 "whole earth did tremble beneath our fee" 

3 Nephi 1:17 "all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished" 

 

"The early prophets and apostles frequently taught their beliefs regarding a global flood using the scriptures. In modern times a belief in a global flood event continues to be widely-held within the Church. A search for the full term "global flood" on the official Church website (www.lds.org) produces only a single reference in the January 1998 Ensign, although there are a number of references in other articles to the Flood being of a global nature even up to the present time. (see: Statements by General Authorities related to the Flood) Typically, references to the Flood are presented in the context of teaching some Gospel principle"


 

A 1998 Ensign article clearly endorses the Global Flood Theory, but not everything in church publications is official doctrine. 

 

Official Doctrine comes from the Scriptures, Articles of Faith, official declarations and proclamations. 

 

If a teaching does not come from the scriptures or an official church declaration, it is not official doctrine. For example, some publications say that there was "no blood" before the Fall, but that teaching is clearly not found in the scriptures. 

 

A student manual says, "When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations”


 

Again, "no blood" before the Fall is not found in the scriptures, it is not official doctrine. 

Edited by MormonFreeThinker
Silhouette Community Regular

Silhouette

Posted
Posted (edited)

This seems to be a very old thread, but since it's started up again, I'd like to weigh in on it.

I've always assumed that God took care of all the stuff everyone seems to be in disagreement on. Someone brought up having to get rid of poop off the ark every day, for example. My thought is that a way was provided.

I dunno, I've just always taken the Scriptures literally, and like I said, I just figured God made ways for things to happen as described in Scripture. How did Noah gather two of every living thing upon the whole Earth? I assume God provided a way for him to do it. Do I have to know what that way was, or understand it in order to believe it? No. I have faith that God knew what He was doing, so I don't worry about it.

How do fresh and salt water fish survive in the same water? I figure God must have provided a way for it to happen.

And so I believe with all the other questions everyone is bringing up about how a global flood could have happened.

We are taught that God does not give a commandment save He provides a way it can be done.

And we are also taught that those whom God calls, the same will He strengthen.

Why does science point to different things regarding the flood? I have no idea, but my money is on Heavenly Father rather than science.

Yes, I am on the Global flood side of the debate, and I have absolutely nothing to back up my belief except scripture and faith.

First a

Edited by Silhouette
1
Silhouette Community Regular

Silhouette

Posted
Posted (edited)

I don't agre with what you say, but I think your assortment of animals rocks. Please share how you did it.

Well, I use a cell phone to post here because I don't have a computer, so I have to use the mobile version of mormondialogue. The mobile version does not have any of the emoticons that I guess the full version has, so I just used some from an emoji keyboard that I downloaded from the App Store when I first got my phone. The animals and things are just one set of choices on the emoji keyboard. You can switch back and forth from the emoji keyboard to the regular letters keyboard.

Edited by Silhouette
Alan Veteran

Alan

Posted
Posted

In my view the flood was global.

I believe there is sufficient evidence that this was so, but even if there isn't it doesn't matter because the scriptures testify to it.

Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

1
Silhouette Community Regular

Silhouette

Posted
Posted (edited)

Thus ignoring the request starting the thread. Nice backhand.

My comment was not intended as a "backhand". The thread was originally started 5 months ago, back in June. It has lain dormant for months. In browsing through the comments, I noted that people who subscribe to the Global theory had begun to comment, so I thought the request in the OP had been opened up for discussion of both theories.

Your implication that I did something deliberately to "backhand" (not sure exactly what that term means when used on a forum, but I sense an extremely hostile tone) the OP or the thread is hurtful.

Please refrain from ascribing intent to my comments that isn't there. You can have no idea of what was in my heart when I posted my comments, so please do not assume that ill intent was a factor. I assure you it was not.

Thanks for your understanding,

Melanie

Edited by Silhouette
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