Noah's Flood And "mental Gymanstics" - Local Flooders Wanted!

[BCSpace]

Then I humbly ask you to steer me to a source of this revelation, because in my studies, as far as I can tell, the CoJCoLDS holds the Lamanites to be the forebears of all the native Americans.

 

 

If you want to go the "principle ancestors" route, principle can mean "most important" which does not preclude other groups of people.

[LinuxGal]

If you want to go the "principle ancestors" route, principle can mean "most important" which does not preclude other groups of people.

 

When I read the book, I gathered that there were Jaredites in the land before the Nephites and Lamanites showed up, and these Jaredites came straight over from Babel where ALL of humanity was gathered together, so they were the ONLY people in the Americas at that time, and they whittled themselves down to just Shiz and Coriantumr, and those two guys took each other out.  So there was no one here when Lehi's folks showed up.  But if there's another story about people coming to America before the Jaredites, it must be in the LDS scriptures that I haven't read.

[BCSpace]

ALL of humanity was gathered together

 

 

Interesting.  I don't gather that at all from Ether 1.  Official LDS doctrine itself implies that the people at the Tower of Babel weren't "ALL of humanity":

 

Following the Flood in Noah’s day, many descendants of those who had been spared became wicked. One group of people attempted to build a tower “whose top may reach unto heaven” (Genesis 11:4). The story of the Jaredite nation began with the building of the Tower of Babel. The Lord dealt with the widespread wickedness by confounding the common language and by scattering the people across the face of the earth (see Ether 1:33; Genesis 11:5–8 ).

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-50-ether-1-5?lang=eng

 

Edited November 25, 2014 by BCSpace

[LinuxGal]

Interesting.  I don't gather that at all from Ether 1.  Official LDS doctrine itself implies that the people at the Tower of Babel weren't "ALL of humanity":

 

Yet Genesis 11:6 says, And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

[mnn727]

Then I humbly ask you to steer me to a source of this revelation, because in my studies, as far as I can tell, the CoJCoLDS holds the Lamanites to be the forebears of all the native Americans.

Here you go  https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

Part of the article  

The Book of Mormon itself, however, does not claim that the peoples it describes were either the predominant or the exclusive inhabitants of the lands they occupied. In fact, cultural and demographic clues in its text hint at the presence of other groups.⁶ At the April 1929 general conference, President Anthony W. Ivins of the First Presidency cautioned: “We must be careful in the conclusions that we reach. The Book of Mormon … does not tell us that there was no one here before them [the peoples it describes]. It does not tell us that people did not come after.”⁷

 

Joseph Smith appears to have been open to the idea of migrations other than those described in the Book of Mormon,⁸ and many Latter-day Saint leaders and scholars over the past century have found the Book of Mormon account to be fully consistent with the presence of other established populations.⁹ The 2006 update to the introduction of the Book of Mormon reflects this understanding by stating that Book of Mormon peoples were “among the ancestors of the American Indians.”¹⁰

 

Nothing is known about the extent of intermarriage and genetic mixing between Book of Mormon peoples or their descendants and other inhabitants of the Americas, though some mixing appears evident, even during the period covered by the book’s text.¹¹ What seems clear is that the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples likely represented only a fraction of all DNA in ancient America. Finding and clearly identifying their DNA today may be asking more of the science of population genetics than it is capable of providing.

 

Edited November 25, 2014 by mnn727

[mnn727]

Yet Genesis 11:6 says, And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

"The people is one", is really open to interpretation. I would not take that to mean everyone in the world was there, but that the people of the city were of one mind about building a tower to heaven.

 

Just to clarify, to me this is another 'story' of a primitive people trying to explain language differences between the various tribes of people rather than a historical account of a true happening.

 

Frankly I doubt most of Genesis ever happened, they we're oral histories of a small tribe of people that grew in the telling before they were finally written down. They don't have to be real for the Bible to be able to enrich our lives and teach us how to become more like Christ.

Edited November 25, 2014 by mnn727

[BCSpace]

Yet Genesis 11:6 says, And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

 

Which people?

[teddyaware]

I don't consider the 2nd a miracle, at least any more of a miracle than it was when we got our bodies the first time.

Again, we don't believe in a Magical God - ex-nihlo creation has been preached against since Joseph Smiths day, so where did all that water come from (and go to)? Other people in this thread have torn asunder the waters from the deep and the ice shell around the Earth theory.

 

Again, the mental gymnastics are totally unnecessary - just let go of the 'global flood' story and understand that in the days before satellites, telescopes, binoculars, and weathermen, a large local flood would look to be worldwide and stories always grow in the telling.

 

Astonishing to me that you don't consider the instantaneous resurrection of billions of dead humans from dust to glorious immortality to not be a miracle when it most certainly has to be among the greatest of all miracles. Do you believe the raising of Lazarus from the dead by the Lord was not be a miracle as well? The raising of Lazarus is certainly listed by all Christians -- including the Latter-day Saints -- to the greatest of the miracles performed by the Lord during His earthly ministry. And in the case of Lazarus, his resurrection was only into back into the state of mortality, yet it is considered the Lord's greatest miracle. Go figure...

 

The bottom line here, I believe, is that some Latter-day Saints are being carefully led down a road that will ultimately culminate (for some) in the denial of the miraculous power of God. It starts out slowly with denials here and there of God's scripturally testified to miracles, continues with a gradual loss of faith in the scriptures and in the omnipotence and omniscience of the power of God, until any remaining faith finally withers and becomes too impotent and beclouded with doubt to save.

 

Here is a list of some of the miraculous deeds Mormon said God is capable of performing by means of His omnipotence and omniscience. I'm wondering which of these listed miracles (I will place them in bold) you might consider to be impossible because they are "scientifically impossible:"

 

9 Yea, behold at his voice do the hills and the mountains tremble and quake.

10 And by the power of his voice they are broken up, and become smooth, yea, even like unto a valley.

11 Yea, by the power of his voice doth the whole earth shake (remember the earthquake at the time of the crucifixion);

12 Yea, by the power of his voice, do the foundations rock, even to the very center.

13 Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved.

14 Yea, if he say unto the earth—Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours—it is done;

15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

16 And behold, also, if he say unto the waters of the great deep—Be thou dried up—it is done.

17 Behold, if he say unto this mountain—Be thou raised up, and come over and fall upon that city, that it be buried up—behold it is done. (Helaman 12)

 

... I find the one about all the oceans drying up at the word of the Lord's command to be ironic in light of the fact that this thread is about the Great Flood (where does all the water go?).

 

As for me and my house, we will continue to believe in the great God of seemingly impossible miracles, and trust that He will marvelously vindicate those who continue to believe He is that great God of miracles. As the Saviour said: "with God all things are possible" (including the Great Flood).

 

Do you believe the Lord is displeased with me, and others, for continuing to believe in a great global flood and not following in the path of those who place our faith and trust in modern science?

Edited November 25, 2014 by teddyaware

[LinuxGal]

Here you go  https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

Part of the article  

 

What you have offered is not a revelation (ie. from a President of the Church) that the forebears of the native American population included others aside from the Lamanites, but only a cautionary gap that allows that it may be so.  Still, I find it encouraging that the CoJCoLDS is not doubling down on a traditionalist position in the face of genetic evidence.   

[Tacenda]

I don't consider the 2nd a miracle, at least any more of a miracle than it was when we got our bodies the first time.

Again, we don't believe in a Magical God - ex-nihlo creation has been preached against since Joseph Smiths day, so where did all that water come from (and go to)? Other people in this thread have torn asunder the waters from the deep and the ice shell around the Earth theory.

Again, the mental gymnastics are totally unnecessary - just let go of the 'global flood' story and understand that in the days before satellites, telescopes, binoculars, and weathermen, a large local flood would look to be worldwide and stories always grow in the telling.

So true, now how to explain talking donkeys.

[LinuxGal]

Which people?

 

If there were other people, God, not being the author of confusion, would not have said the people were one.  He would have said, "Look, there's one of the bands of people."

[teddyaware]

So true, now how to explain talking donkeys.

 

 

 10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by thechains of hell. (Alma 12)

[LinuxGal]

 

 

 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by thechains of hell. (Alma 12)

 

 

So if you don't believe in talking animals you are headed for perdition.  Salvation is by faith in Christ plus faith in talking animals.

[thesometimesaint]

If there were other people, God, not being the author of confusion, would not have said the people were one.  He would have said, "Look, there's one of the bands of people."

 

Non Sequitur.

[mnn727]

What you have offered is not a revelation (ie. from a President of the Church) that the forebears of the native American population included others aside from the Lamanites, but only a cautionary gap that allows that it may be so.  Still, I find it encouraging that the CoJCoLDS is not doubling down on a traditionalist position in the face of genetic evidence.   

Care to show me a revelation saying Lehi's group were the only people on the continent.

[mnn727]

If there were other people, God, not being the author of confusion, would not have said the people were one.  He would have said, "Look, there's one of the bands of people."

Gods not the author of confusion!!! have you read the Bible? why are there thousands of Churches teaching slightly (or greatly) different things?

[mnn727]

 

 

Do you believe the Lord is displeased with me, and others, for continuing to believe in a great global flood and not following in the path of those who place our faith and trust in modern science?

Yes I do, God gave us all brains and reasoning, why should we not use them?

 

Perhaps you can try answering posts 195 and 197 of this thread.

[LinuxGal]

Gods not the author of confusion!!! have you read the Bible? why are there thousands of Churches teaching slightly (or greatly) different things?

 

Because human beings have reading comprehension problems.

[LinuxGal]

Care to show me a revelation saying Lehi's group were the only people on the continent.

 

I withdraw my statement.  The people of Zarahemla also came over, parallel to Lehi's group.

[Silhouette]

Presumably the same miracle that brought all the wild animals to the ark two-by-two and spend a year indoors would have allowed the fish to thrive in a different pH. I dunno, it's not my story, I'm just following out the consequences of it.

Amen. I too believe that God is capable of many glorious miracles which "logic" and "science" try to explain away. God gave Noah commandments and instructions on how to accomplish them, and He took care of the rest. Cleaning poop from that many animals enclosed in that space? I'm sure a way was provided. Animals who were traditionally preditors and prey, living so close together and not having issues? I'm sure God caused their natural instincts to be suppressed. Fish surviving in different waters than normal? God arranged for that, too.

Sure, there are certainly things we don't understand, and things of "logic" and things that "the scientific evidence" point to that cause many people to reject or lose their faith in God's ability to perform miracles, and the really sad thing is that they don't even realize they are doing so.

When the last day comes and I am kneeling before the judgement bar, I will have many, many things to account for. But I have the knowledge that, when it comes to my belief in God and His miracles, even those miracles that I could not fathom or understand.... I will rejoice at the words, "In this, thou hast been diligent and steadfast in thy faith in thy Heavenly Father. Arise, thou faithful daughter, and receive thy reward."

Edited November 25, 2014 by Silhouette

[cinepro]

Here you go  https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

Part of the article  

 

I think it's easy to overstate what Joseph Smith thought about "others" in the Book of Mormon.  His clearest and most official statement on the subject is found in the Wentworth Letter, where he says this about the Book of Mormon peoples:

 

[During Moroni's visit on September 23, 1823] I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America] and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people.

 

------------------------------------------------

In this important and interesting book [The Book of Mormon] the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.

 

The Wentworth Letter (emphasis added)

 

So we have to ask ourselves "What did Joseph Smith know?"  Some would say not very much, but I don't think less of any LDS who takes him at his word regarding the people in The Book of Mormon.

[teddyaware]

So if you don't believe in talking animals you are headed for perdition.  Salvation is by faith in Christ plus faith in talking animals.

 

Not at all. My position is that I leave open the very real possibility that God has the power and knowledge to be able to work such miracles. Rather than smirking in a cocky and self-assured way and casting out of hand the scriptural testimonies of such miracles, I take said testimonies seriously because the Saviour said that with God all things are possible. My stand is to err on the side of the scriptures rather than on the side of science.

[teddyaware]

Yes I do, God gave us all brains and reasoning, why should we not use them?

 

Perhaps you can try answering posts 195 and 197 of this thread.

 

This is what our little controversy distills down to: My mind is open to the possibility that the flood was global, while you have already made up your mind that it wasn't. Considering that God has infinite and eternal power, and knows and can tap into all the hidden mysteries and advanced sciences of the eternities, I will not be so presumptuous as to cast out of hand the scriptural testimonies of the great and seemingly impossible miracles it is said He has performed. 

 

As for your questions, God Himself has promised us He Himself will answer such questions during the Millennium. So I'll patiently await the day when the Lord reveals all these things, including what He calls "hidden things which no man knew." You may think you already have the answers, but I'll wait.

 

2 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—

 33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—

 34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven. (D&C 101)

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[LinuxGal]

My stand is to err on the side of the scriptures rather than on the side of science.

 

Sometimes I am told that translations of the scriptures have errors, yet science has a self-correcting mechanism involving observations of nature by third parties.  It seems to me the latter, therefore, is more trustworthy. 

[mnn727]

 

Problem is you are not waiting, you've already decided it did, because an oral tradition was passed down for generations and finally added to scripture, then was translate multiple times but because its in the Bible it must be 100% true and historically accurate (even though we do not believe that abut scripture), even when evidence proves it can not be. Just call it a miracle and it must be true.

 

If God wanted me to believe in it He wouldn't have created so much evidence against it.

Edited November 26, 2014 by mnn727