Noah's Flood And "mental Gymanstics" - Local Flooders Wanted!

[teddyaware]

Sometimes I am told that translations of the scriptures have errors, yet science has a self-correcting mechanism involving observations of nature by third parties.  It seems to me the latter, therefore, is more trustworthy. 

  

if you trust science more than the words of the Lord in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and the words of the living Apostles and Prophets, that is your prerogative. I will put my trust in the word of the Lord...

 

 

 31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the reason why more and more members are putting their trust in men, rather than in the word of God, is because they're reading all sorts of things but are rarely bothering to read, diligently study and ponder the scriptures. As a natural consequence of such neglect of the word of God, man begins to loose the Spirit and it's divine insight. As the Lord said, "where a man's treasure is, there will his heart be also." 

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Problem is you are not waiting, you've already decided it did, because an oral tradition was passed down for generations and finally added to scripture, then was translate multiple times but because its in the Bible it must be 100% true and historically accurate (even though we do not believe that abut scripture), even when evidence proves it can not be. Just call it a miracle and it must be true.

 

If God wanted me to believe in it He wouldn't have created so much evidence against it.

 

While it's true I trust the word of God more than I do the arm of flesh, in reality I'm keeping an open mind and awaiting the promised day when the Lord is going to reveal those "hidden things" pertaining to the creation "which no man knew." Since I believe the Lord includes me in that group of people who have many "hidden things" yet to learn at His hand pertaining to the creation, I'll wait till the Millennium to get the Lord's final word on the matter. Since I don't now know these things -- and can't know them until the Millennium -- I have no choice but to keep an open mind. I don't know what I don't know, so why pretend that I do?

 

But perhaps you're one of the lucky ones who already knows the answers to all of these these great, hidden mysteries pertaining to the creation... Oh wait! You can't already know them because the Lord said they are things which "no man" can know prior to the millennial day. But anyway, if it makes you happy, just continue to believe you already know all these "hidden things." that no man knows or can know until the Millennium.

 

Edited to add:

 

If I had to choose, I would say I believe the flood was global, because that's what the scriptures say, and I trust the scriptures more than I do scientists. But in reality, I'm keeping my mind open until the great millennial day of divine disclosure.  

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[LinuxGal]

if you trust science more than the words of the Lord in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and the words of the living Apostles and Prophets, that is your prerogative. I will put my trust in the word of the Lord...

 

 

Joseph Smith told his brethren the BoM was the most correct book on Earth, and this was before it was redacted four thousand times.

 

Nephi admits there might be mistakes, but that's okay, because the other Sacred Scriptures have mistakes too:

Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old... (1 Nephi 19:6)

One of the biggest errors was attributing blame on the Jews for crucifying Jesus:  "And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel..." (1 Nephi 19:13)

For one thing, Jews only stoned people, Romans crucified them.  For another thing we are told in John 3:16 that God gave his only son to be killed precisely because he loved the world.  In other words, God killed Jesus.  It is this kind of twisted logic that steers me away from these works that are put forth as the word of God.

[teddyaware]

Joseph Smith told his brethren the BoM was the most correct book on Earth, and this was before it was redacted four thousand times.

 

Nephi admits there might be mistakes, but that's okay, because the other Sacred Scriptures have mistakes too:

Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old... (1 Nephi 19:6)

One of the biggest errors was attributing blame on the Jews for crucifying Jesus:  "And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel..." (1 Nephi 19:13)

For one thing, Jews only stoned people, Romans crucified them.  For another thing we are told in John 3:16 that God gave his only son to be killed precisely because he loved the world.  In other words, God killed Jesus.  It is this kind of twisted logic that steers me away from these works that are put forth as the word of God.

 

Well I'm enlightened to know you're not a believer. Now your posts make more sense.

 

But you can't be serious about the death of Christ and your claim the wicked ancient Jew's in Jerusalem weren't culpable for the crime. The Romans would never have put Christ to death if these Jewish leaders hadn't first arrested the Him, subjected Him to illegal "trials"and then put Ponitus Pilot up to it (he found no fault in the Lord) by their bloodthirsty cries of,"crucify Him!" "crucify Him." These wicked men wanted Jesus dead much more than the Romans did, and they applied all the pressure they knew how exert on the provincial Roman government in Jerusalem to get the Romans to do the dirty work of execution for them.

 

Just because a hit man may be the one who actually carries out a murder, the people who put the hit man up to the dastardly deed are just as guilty, if not more guilty for the crime. While it's true it's the Roman's who carried out the dirty work, the scriptures make it clear many of the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem wanted Jesus dead and they manipulated the system to make it happen.

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Joseph Smith told his brethren the BoM was the most correct book on Earth, and this was before it was redacted four thousand times.

 

And credibility drops...

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Textual_changes

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/As_the_most_correct_book

[MormonFreeThinker]

And credibility drops...

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Textual_changes

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/As_the_most_correct_book

 

Not related to the topic, stop derailing 

[MormonFreeThinker]

I am still waiting 

 

Where does the "No blood" before the Fall teaching come from? Scriptures? Official statements? 

 

It is clear that the Global Flood theory is not official church doctrine. 

[Calm]

Not related to the topic, stop derailing

Tell LinuxGalto stop derailing and I will need not to.

Bythe way, cinepro was the one who started the thread, I have to listen to him or the mods....not you.

Edited November 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[LinuxGal]

I am still waiting 

 

Where does the "No blood" before the Fall teaching come from? Scriptures? Official statements? 

 

It is clear that the Global Flood theory is not official church doctrine. 

 

The scriptures in Genesis 9:4 specifically equates blood with life:

 

 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

 

That means if any animal or human had no blood before the fall, then it had no life.

[LinuxGal]

 These wicked men wanted Jesus dead much more than the Romans did, and they applied all the pressure they knew how on the provincial Roman government in Jerusalem to get the Romans to do the dirty work of execution for them.

 

The dirty work of execution?

 

1 Cor. 1:

 

[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

We should be thanking the Jews and Romans for carrying out the will of God for our salvation.  But no, many Christians are ashamed of the cross.

[MormonFreeThinker]

The scriptures in Genesis 9:4 specifically equates blood with life:

 

 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

 

That means if any animal or human had no blood before the fall, then it had no life.

 

LOL good one 

[teddyaware]

The dirty work of execution?

 

1 Cor. 1:

 

[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

We should be thanking the Jews and Romans for carrying out the will of God for our salvation.  But no, many Christians are ashamed of the cross.

 

It's difficult to figure out where you're coming from.

 

i am not ashamed of the cross of Christ and I do glory with all my soul in what the Lord accomplished there, but what was done to bring Christ to crucifixion was still a crime plain and simple. I can think of many scriptures that glorify Christ's sufferings and death on the cross, but I can think of no scriptural references that say we should thank the wicked, complicit Jews of Jesus' day for committing their enormous crime. Can you? When these people come to a full realization of what they've done, it's hard to imagine they would ever boast of their act of supreme wickedness or that any Christians will want to 'high- five' them and say, "Hey man, thanks for crucifying the Lord."

[thesometimesaint]

This is what our little controversy distills down to: My mind is open to the possibility that the flood was global, while you have already made up your mind that it wasn't. Considering that God has infinite and eternal power, and knows and can tap into all the hidden mysteries and advanced sciences of the eternities, I will not be so presumptuous as to cast out of hand the scriptural testimonies of the great and seemingly impossible miracles it is said He has performed. 

 

As for your questions, God Himself has promised us He Himself will answer such questions during the Millennium. So I'll patiently await the day when the Lord reveals all these things, including what He calls "hidden things which no man knew." You may think you already have the answers, but I'll wait.

 

2 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—

 33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—

 34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven. (D&C 101)

 

SEE Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

Galileo the Theist

[teddyaware]

SEE Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

Galileo the Theist

 

Do you find any of the following miracles the prophet Mormon says the Lord is able to perform impossible as well?

 

 9 Yea, behold at his voice do the hills and the mountains tremble and quake.

 10 And by the power of his voice they are broken up, and become smooth, yea, even like unto a valley.

 11 Yea, by the power of his voice doth the whole earth shake;

 12 Yea, by the power of his voice, do the foundations rock, even to the very center.

 13 Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved.

 14 Yea, if he say unto the earth—Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours—it is done;

 15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

 16 And behold, also, if he say unto the waters of the great deep—Be thou dried up—it is done.

 17 Behold, if he say unto this mountain—Be thou raised up, andcome over and fall upon that city, that it be buried up—behold it is done. (Helaman 12)

 

It never ceases to amaze me how people who think the way you do simultaneously believe that billions of the human dead from thousands of years are instantaneously going to be raised from inanimate dust as immortal, glorified beings -- in a radical disruption of the uniformitarian model. Now there's a feat than makes Galileo's challenge look like a cinch. You act as if the laws that generally govern this earth are the only set of laws that can govern in the eternities.

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[MormonFreeThinker]

Do you find any of the following miracles the prophet Mormon says the Lord is able to perform impossible as well?

 

It depends how you interpret them. For example, see 5:11 to 9:00

 

 

 

There is a lot of scientific evidence against the Global Flood. We believe in the God of nature, the God of intelligence, the God of order, not in the God of magic. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[teddyaware]

It depends how you interpret them. For example, see 5:11 to 9:00

 

 

 

There is a lot of scientific evidence against the Global Flood. 

 

God's infinite and eternal science is greater than man's limited science. The Lord can tap into laws and powers that are beyond your imagination. There is massive scientific evidence against the concept of a resurrection of the long dead into state of immortal glory. Now who am I going to believe, God or the many scientists who confidently declare that the resurrection from inanimate dust to eternal life is an impossibility? The eternities and the universe are far, far more than you know. But if it makes you happy, you go ahead and continue to believe that the laws that generally govern this earth are the only laws that exist in all of eternity.

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[thesometimesaint]

Do you find any of the following miracles the prophet Mormon says the Lord is able to perform impossible as well?

 

 9 Yea, behold at his voice do the hills and the mountains tremble and quake.

 10 And by the power of his voice they are broken up, and become smooth, yea, even like unto a valley.

 11 Yea, by the power of his voice doth the whole earth shake;

 12 Yea, by the power of his voice, do the foundations rock, even to the very center.

 13 Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved.

 14 Yea, if he say unto the earth—Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours—it is done;

 15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

 16 And behold, also, if he say unto the waters of the great deep—Be thou dried up—it is done.

 17 Behold, if he say unto this mountain—Be thou raised up, andcome over and fall upon that city, that it be buried up—behold it is done. (Helaman 12)

 

It never ceases to amaze me how people who think the way you do simultaneously believe that billions of the human dead from thousands of years are instantaneously going to be raised from inanimate dust as immortal, glorified beings -- in a radical disruption of the uniformitarian model. Now there's a feat than makes Galileo's challenge look like a cinch.

 

SEE Prooftexting

"A man dissatisfied with his life decided to consult the Bible for guidance. Closing his eyes, he flipped the book open and pointed to a spot on the page. Opening his eyes, he read the verse under his finger. It read, "Then Judas went away and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:5b). Finding these words unhelpful, the man randomly selected another verse. This one read, "Jesus told him, 'Go and do likewise.'" (Luke 10:37b). In desperation he tried one more time. The text he found was: "What you are about to do, do quickly." (John 13:27)

 

 

SEE Mountain top removal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaintop_removal_mining

 

The earth moves because of gravity and law of the conservation of angular momentum. What if any role God played in it is a religious belief and not science.

 

Actual days have varied in length over epochs of time. What if any role God played in it is a religious belief and not science

[MormonFreeThinker]

There is massive scientific evidence against the concept of a resurrection of the long dead into state of immortal glory.

 

Not really, some atheists scientists like Dr. Marvin Minsky believe that Resurrection will be possible in the future. 

There is a difference between "lack of evidence" and "evidence against" 

 

Just watch the video please, see 5:11 to 9:00 

 

[LinuxGal]

Not really, some atheists scientists like Dr. Marvin Minsky believe that Resurrection will be possible in the future. 

 

Lots of scientists believe many things, I'm interested in the things they understand.

[teddyaware]

SEE Prooftexting

"A man dissatisfied with his life decided to consult the Bible for guidance. Closing his eyes, he flipped the book open and pointed to a spot on the page. Opening his eyes, he read the verse under his finger. It read, "Then Judas went away and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:5b). Finding these words unhelpful, the man randomly selected another verse. This one read, "Jesus told him, 'Go and do likewise.'" (Luke 10:37b). In desperation he tried one more time. The text he found was: "What you are about to do, do quickly." (John 13:27)

 

 

SEE Mountain top removal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaintop_removal_mining

 

The earth moves because of gravity and law of the conservation of angular momentum. What if any role God played in it is a religious belief and not science.

 

Actual days have varied in length over epochs of time. What if any role God played in it is a religious belief and not science.

 

Nice non-answer One either believes in a God of miracles, who knows and can employ to His good use laws that transcend the laws governing our world, or he doesn't. The prophets never use your line of reasoning, so I see no reason why I should. I'm not going to ignore the scriptures (which I know to be true) that so often remind us God is a God of great miracles.

 

Is changing water into wine, walking on water or raising the dead to life some sort of magical alchemy or are these things real phenomena that we -- for now -- call miracles, performed by someone who knows and operates on a higher set of scientific laws that actually exist, but for most lie beyond present understanding? 

 

Being so earthbound must be so limiting.  I often wonder if many of the LDS scientific types seriously study and ponder the scriptures or if they mostly ignore the iron rod of the word of God and spend most of their time reading and pondering "scientific stuff."

 

Thankfully, the scriptures encourage us to strive to allow the Spirit of God to lift us up beyond the limiting confines of the rudiments of this world; and the scriptures also testify that we can know with certainty (think Nephi) that the things of God are true, real and are simply manifestations of higher realms of science. The scriptures even go so far as to teach us that by the Spirit (a real substance) we can know the truth and reality all things, not just merely believe. Just because someone has never received authentic spiritual confirmation of God's truth doesn't mean the principle of revelation isn't as real as anything else tha exists. To say and believe otherwise is a contradiction of the most solemn testimonies of the prophets in the Standard Works.

 

If you want to believe science and religion are not one and the same, that's your right. But I'll bet God does know they are one and the same. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Not really, some atheists scientists like Dr. Marvin Minsky believe that Resurrection will be possible in the future. 

There is a difference between "lack of evidence" and "evidence against" 

 

Just watch the video please, see 5:11 to 9:00 

 

 

What scientific phenomenon accounts for the commandments written by the finger of the Lord on tablets of stone? Perhaps some sort of intelligent "stone termite?"

Edited November 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[thesometimesaint]

I have no problem with God and/or his prophets. I do have problems with us mortals claiming God did such and such, or will prevent us from doing such and such. You tell me was Joseph Fielding Smith acting as a prophet of God when he said "We will never get a man into space.This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it...The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen." ?

Edited November 26, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Flyonthewall]

Threads like these make me wonder how the other miracles of God fare... Are they too cast into the realm of impossibility, and simple rhetoric just because there is no scientific knowledge to back them up?

Is God limited by man's understanding of science? Does God's power grow or shrink with man's understanding?

[mnn727]

Threads like these make me wonder how the other miracles of God fare... Are they too cast into the realm of impossibility, and simple rhetoric just because there is no scientific knowledge to back them up?

Is God limited by man's understanding of science? Does God's power grow or shrink with man's understanding?

I think most of Genesis is just a oral history that grew in the telling and do not consider it scripture - that's a radical view for any type of Christian, but I'm sure God wants us to use our intellect and our power of reasoning along with our faith. 

Its time for Christians of all kinds to stop the mental gymnastics trying to make physical science correlate with Biblical stories

[LinuxGal]

Threads like these make me wonder how the other miracles of God fare... Are they too cast into the realm of impossibility, and simple rhetoric just because there is no scientific knowledge to back them up?

Is God limited by man's understanding of science? Does God's power grow or shrink with man's understanding?

 

Christianity has made belief in the historicity of the miracles the basis for the truth of the gospel. This distorts who Jesus really was, by turning him, for example at the wedding in Cana, into a kind of wine god, and coupled with the absolute lack of miracles in our own time undermines the claims of the theology of the gospels and makes it difficult or impossible for many people to convert.