Scott Lloyd Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) Love it. Elder Uchtdorf saidIf only he know that these folks just didn't want to be convinced.It's President Uchtdorf, and I don't know that he was talking specifically about people who, according to Cinepro, find FairMormon content unpersuasive. I don't recall that he ever mentioned FairMormon, for that matter. But what are you getting at? Are you saying that the content on the FairMormon site is so weak and inferior that nobody would be persuaded by it unless he/she already believed in Mormonism? Edited May 30, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 1
Calm Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) Because families may have people who had left, those who have doubts and those who have remained. This kind of discussion could be very helpful in guiding a faithful member who has to navigate similar conversations with multiple levels of belief within his/her own family.Spot on. Whether that means we will have an exmormon family member presenting what they feel helped keep the family intact, stable and continuing in love, I don't know. Edited May 30, 2014 by calmoriah 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 It's President Uchtdorf,My apologies. No disrespect intended.
mfbukowski Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 I don't concede that it is a fair reflection of what I wrote, but alas, it is the sort of thing I would expect from an ex-Mormon being placed on a panel at the FairMormon Conference. And why I wouldn't expect that sort of thing to work out very well. John Williams's posts here, by contrast and to his credit, have been mostly restrained and positive. I fear that John is very much the exception.Agreed
Scott Lloyd Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 My apologies. No disrespect intended.I recognize there was no disrespect intended. And I wasn't calling for an apology, only making a correction. Maybe my job has conditioned me to be hypersensitive to this sort of thing. I don't mean to seem pedantic.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 But what are you getting at? Are you saying that the content on the FairMormon site is so weak and inferior that nobody would be persuaded by it unless he/she already believed in Mormonism?Absolutely not!! Wow, I said nothing of the sort. I implied nothing of the sort. I am fine with wherever one's faith journey takes them an in no way shape or form look down on FAIR. I think they do a tremendous job (for the most part). Don Bradley is a great example of a non mormon studying his way back into the church (obviously the spirit was involved as well) and I am sure there are many others.
jkwilliams Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 I think this is a mischaracterization of what FairMormon is trying to do with this panel discussion.* It is definitely a misreading and a mischaracterization of what I've said. *(And, for the record, I know next to nothing about what the panel discussion will entail. I don't speak for FairMormon. For all I know, they may actually be planning to have an ex-Mormon on the panel. I'm only saying I wouldn't expect such a thing to work very well.) I'm sorry if I misread you. You seemed to assume that an ex-Mormon would be likely to attack the church and behave badly if invited to such a panel. As I said, I think it could be very helpful to get an ex-Mormon's perspective. I don't know what the purpose of the panel is, which is why I asked in the first place.
jkwilliams Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 I suspect that "apologetics" in general (and FAIR specifically) is most effective with people who are still members of the Church but having doubts. With all due respect, once someone has made the break (either voluntarily or involuntarily), I can't imagine that them finding anything published by FAIR to be the least bit convincing. So if I'm right, it would be a waste of time to have ex-Mormons at a FAIR conference. But I can't imagine what good it will do to have a panel with "family members of those who have left the Church". Are these people supposed to represent those who have left, or does being the "family member" of such a person endow them with knowledge and wisdom that isn't available to regular people? That's what I was trying to say to Scott, but you said it much better. I can't think of many ex-Mormons who would find the FAIR materials convincing, but that's as you say because they have already made that break. But it's certainly in our interest to help make family situations better, as pretty much all of us have been through some huge upheaval with our families.
jkwilliams Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 Spot on. Whether that means we will have an exmormon family member presenting what they feel helped keep the family intact, stable and continuing in love, I don't know. Yep. I think it would be a great idea, but then what do I know?
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Yep. I think it would be a great idea, but then what do I know?If something like what calmoriah suggests actually transpires, I say, great. I just fear there are a great many apostates who would relish the chance to get on stage at the FairMormon conference and lecture believers about everything they think is wrong with them. If that's what it turns into, I say, Who needs it? I, for one, won't hang around to hear it. Edited May 31, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 2
jkwilliams Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 If something like what calmoriah suggests actually transpired, I say, great.I just fear there are a great many apostates who would relish the chance to get on stage at the FairMormon conference and lecture believers about everything they think is wrong with them. If that's what it turns into, I say, Who needs it? Again, that would be highly inappropriate. Needless to say, if that person's believing spouse were also on the panel, it could be disastrous to the marriage. I guess I don't understand why you think people who leave the church would relish doing further damage to their family relationships. Speaking for myself, I've worked hard to repair the damage to my relationship with my wife and other family members that occurred when I left the church (and as I said, I recognize that much of it was my doing). I would have to be crazy to do something that would undo all the good we've managed over the last 7 years, especially in public. Do you really think ex-Mormons as a group are that bent on attacking the church that we'd do something that destructive to our relationships?
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Again, that would be highly inappropriate. Needless to say, if that person's believing spouse were also on the panel, it could be disastrous to the marriage. I guess I don't understand why you think people who leave the church would relish doing further damage to their family relationships. Speaking for myself, I've worked hard to repair the damage to my relationship with my wife and other family members that occurred when I left the church (and as I said, I recognize that much of it was my doing). I would have to be crazy to do something that would undo all the good we've managed over the last 7 years, especially in public. Do you really think ex-Mormons as a group are that bent on attacking the church that we'd do something that destructive to our relationships?Many people get so caught up in their anger and hatred that they don't allow even cherished family relationships to stop them. Some, I fear, have been at it so long and with such intensity they don't fully realize how they come across.
jkwilliams Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 Many people get so caught up in their anger and hatred that they don't allow even cherished family relationships to stop them.Some, I fear, have been at it so long and with such intensity they don't fully realize how they come across. Most ex-Mormons I know are not crazy, evil, or stupid, and you would have to be all three to use a panel discussion on helping families survive an apostasy as an opportunity to attack the church. I know a few people who are like what you describe, but they number less than 10. That you think "many" people would do that, such that it's not worth the risk to invite an ex-Mormon to a panel like that, saddens me. I know a few people who defend the church online who I think are genuinely evil, but again, they are a tiny group, no more than the genuinely evil ex-Mormons I know. But I would never assume that all or even many Mormons are like that. 1
Calm Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Many people get so caught up in their anger and hatred that they don't allow even cherished family relationships to stop them. Some, I fear, have been at it so long and with such intensity they don't fully realize how they come across.I would assume if FM chose to have an exmormon on the panel it would be one who had demonstrated for him/herself the type of behaviour we would like to see in everyone consistently over a significant period of time. Edited May 31, 2014 by calmoriah
jkwilliams Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 I would assume if FM chose to have an exmormon on the panel it would be one who had demonstrated for him/herself the type of behaviour we would like to see in everyone consistently over a significant period of time. Apparently, there aren't many who fit that description.
frank_jessop Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I'm sorry if I misread you. You seemed to assume that an ex-Mormon would be likely to attack the church and behave badly if invited to such a panel. As I said, I think it could be very helpful to get an ex-Mormon's perspective.I don't know what the purpose of the panel is, which is why I asked in the first place.I do not think you have misread him at all; he has been very open and blunt with his attitude toward "ex-Mormons". I could see the panel going covering several aspects of family members leaving the Church. Assuming the panel members will speak from personal experience. I could see them discussion how they personally dealt with the inner turmoil or sadness or despair that a family member has left the Church. For someone who believes in the Church it is a very scary and saddening thing for a family member to leave i.e. is this family member lost forever; in Heaven will that family member not be a family member; in Heaven will I have any memories of the family member - these would be difficult and heartbreaking things to think about.I could also see the panel discussing how to persevere, endure and repent of any antagonism that might develop and linger for awhile. I could also see the panel discussing a "healing process" whether individually or collectively as the whole family reunites - as it were - as a family, while accepting that other family members are no longer associated with the Church; except by heritage or culture. To be honest, I do not believe FAIRMormon would hold such a panel if the discussion was only theoretical. I image the panel discussion will be based on real experiences. I also do not believe that FAIRMormon would dedicate time to such a Panel if FAIRMormon did not believe a good portion of the audience has dealt with a family member leaving the Church or MIGHT experience a family member leaving the Church. The panel will be interesting. Edited May 31, 2014 by frank_jessop
frank_jessop Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) But an apologetics conference? I can't realistically see such a thing happening without the ex-Mormon or ex-Mormons on the panel holding forth with all manner of justifications, excuses, rationalizations, attacks against the Church, lists of ways in which he had been wronged, etc. Maybe a long history of reading discussion boards about Mormonism has conditioned me to be cynical in that respect.something to considerPublic Affairs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."Nevertheless, I hope that we will see less cynicism and criticism, more respectful dialogue, more kindness and civility and more generosity of spirit as those members who are prone to use the Internet engage with each other."Change begins within oneself. Edited May 31, 2014 by frank_jessop
jkwilliams Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 something to consider Nevertheless, I hope that we will see less cynicism and criticism, more respectful dialogue, more kindness and civility and more generosity of spirit as those members who are prone to use the Internet engage with each other. I appreciate that. If we are going to help families survive the trauma of a family member leaving the church, we must get past the notion that we are enemies.
frank_jessop Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I appreciate that. If we are going to help families survive the trauma of a family member leaving the church, we must get past the notion that we are enemies.Exactly.I would add that we must get past the notion that the person who leaves, is devoid any kindness toward family members who remain in the Church.
Daniel Peterson Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I suppose it depends on the purpose of the panel. I assumed that the panel would discuss positive ways to help people cope with family members leaving the church. If so, I know a lot of ex-Mormons who would be happy to talk about how people on both sides of the divide could make such situations better. If the panel is intended for something else, then obviously it wouldn't help at all to have an unbeliever on the panel. Your view of what it means to "cope" with the departure of a family member from the Church is very likely to differ to some extent or another from the view of a committed believer. An ex-Mormon's opinion as to how to make such a situation "better" is almost certainly going to vary, at least somewhat, from the opinion of an active, faithful Mormon. To suggest that, if the panel's aims don't fully accord with your view of what constitutes "coping" or with your judgment of what would be "better," it's not intended to help make things better or to assist people in coping, seems to me somewhat myopic. --"DCP, no less" Edited May 31, 2014 by Daniel Peterson 1
Daniel Peterson Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I also think it is a little condescending to assume that the attendees at the conference want to be spoon fed. Who assumes that?
CA Steve Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Your view of what it means to "cope" with the departure of a family member from the Church is very likely to differ to some extent or another from the view of a committed believer. An ex-Mormon's opinion as to how to make such a situation "better" is almost certainly going to vary, at least somewhat, from the opinion of an active, faithful Mormon. To suggest that, if the panel's aims don't fully accord with your view of what constitutes "coping" or with your judgment of what would be "better," it's not intended to help make things better or to assist people in coping, seems to me somewhat myopic. --"DCP, no less"It sounds like you would make an excellent participant for the round table discussion. Wouldn't an great topic of discussion be how a former member and current member differ in dealing with the same situation?
CA Steve Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Who assumes that?I did not say anyone assumed that, Why? Do you think someone did?
rongo Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 For what it's worth, I don't think the fairly recent "panel discussion" (fairly recent at the FAIR Conference) format is a good fit for the FAIR Conference. It's more "Sunstone" than FAIR. How good was Bill Reel's panel discussion a couple of years ago? And look at the water under that bridge since then . . .
Daniel Peterson Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 It sounds like you would make an excellent participant for the round table discussion. Wouldn't an great topic of discussion be how a former member and current member differ in dealing with the same situation? I'm already scheduled to lie, mock, and slander . . . er, to speak at the conference. But, yes, that would be a good topic for a panel somewhere at some point.
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