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Questions For Jeremy Runnels "letter To Ces Director" Author

mormonstories

By mormonstories
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Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

"Hey, sometimes people can have a lot of different issues and it's very time consuming to address them all if they put them together into one big list.""

That this happens is no doubt true, but I don't remember FM receiving a big list that hadnt been lifted from someone else's work...I am sure it happens just rare enough that I don't get a definite memory like i have from the dozens of shotgun big list questions. I have no problem with someone who has thoughtfully collected over the years a list of problems that they have not been able to answer for themselves even though they have tried. Generally that type also wants to systematically approach them as well. Those discussions can be quite satisfying even if in the end no one has changed a mind (even more though when we have relieved concerns, but someone like that is usually aware of most of the answers so it is often more about providing other ways to view the data, putting the puzzle together by helping make more appropriate weighting, seeing what underlying assumptions just may be faulty).

There are FM members who have worked for months with someone going through lists and they are happy to do so as long as the correspondent understands delays will occur when life hits.

3
stemelbow Grand Master

stemelbow

Posted
Posted

I think the problem with "big lists" is this:

 

With any such list, some items are going to be better than others.  Personally, I have yet to see a "big list" of problems with the LDS Church that didn't have at least a few things on it that didn't bother me, or I recognized as having been well-addressed by apologists.

 

So when you present such a list to an apologist, they are obviously (and rightfully) going to focus on the easiest issues to address.  They're not going to point out the issues that have no satisfactory explanation.  

 

But in doing so, sometimes responders to such lists overreach, and imply that because they have nullified this many items on the list, the rest of the items should be disregarded as well.  But this is obviously not true.  There may be some really, 100% solid doozies left on the list, and just because a different concern has been resolved doesn't mean there aren't some silver bullets elsewhere on the list.

 

So instead of whining about all the problems people can have with the Church and the fact that they might collect these issues into one document in list form, Jeff Lindsay should just acknowledge "Hey, sometimes people can have a lot of different issues and it's very time consuming to address them all if they put them together into one big list."

 

One thing I would object to is if someone compiles a list (or borrows a list from someone else) without trying to understand each issue on the list in detail.  In other words, I can understand an apologist's frustration if someone says "here are all the problems I have with the Church" but they haven't taken the time to study each issue for themselves.  I wouldn't spend time responding to someone's concerns if they don't care enough to spend time doing their homework on their own.

I've made big lists for big list effect. When I do, I often stretch issues or application out in order to make the list more exhaustive. When I see other's big lists, I try to put me in their shoes and I often do feel some items come off as disingenuous--meaning individually the person doesn't care much about it.

But when you respond with a graphic by saying the critique of your original piece agrees with some percent of your original, it comes off as big list disingenuous to me. I think that was, perhaps, Rennels biggest mistake. It comes off as disingenuous, sadly, because I think he has some valid concerns.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

But when you respond with a graphic by saying the critique of your original piece agrees with some percent of your original, it comes off as big list disingenuous to me. I think that was, perhaps, Rennels biggest mistake. It comes off as disingenuous, sadly, because I think he has some valid concerns.

Especially when he ignores actual input from the people doing the critiquing who specifically deny that assumption is accurate, that just because something isn't addressed it means agreement rather than a lack of time, resources and inclination to devote more time, resources and effort to the project given the belief that sufficient was done to demonstrate the problem with his methodology and that there is no reason to spoonfeed the problems with the entire article because those paying attention should be able to do so themselves once shown the way...and if they can't they can ask for more help.

Edited by calmoriah
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omni Mentor

omni

Posted
Posted

I don't understand all of the objections to "big lists".  In a discussion forum such as this there's not much use for them, but I don't think that was Jeremy's goal.  If the author wanted an in depth analysis of the issues he could have simply listed a dozen books or at the very list linked to a popular critical website.  What the CES letter is, is an easy to read list containing most of the historical/doctrinal issues concerning the church.  If a reader wants to learn more about a subject contained in the letter, they're just a quick google search away from doing so.  If an apologist published a "Letter to a Doubter" containing a long list of evidences for the church would anyone here be complaining?

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why me Grand Master

why me

Posted
Posted

 If an apologist published a "Letter to a Doubter" containing a long list of evidences for the church would anyone here be complaining?

Maybe. However, in matters of faith, big lists have very little impact except to lead people away. How can any church member prove that the church is true? They can't. And of course, all religions can have their own big lists of troubling issues which would create doubt in a person's mind. So, what is the purpose of such a letter as in the OP?

cinepro Grand Master

cinepro

Posted
Posted (edited)

So, what is the purpose of such a letter as in the OP?

The "purpose" is actually quite easy to understand.

Jeremy was approached by a "CES Director" and asked to share his concerns. The format Jeremy chose was a letter, as opposed to sky writing, smoke signals, semaphore, telegram, or telepathy. Since Jeremy had several concerns, and the Director has apparently asked for his "concerns" (plural), those concerns were included in the letter. Since there were more than one, and Jeremy chose to group them together thematically, those concerns appear to be in some sort of list format.

Because it was a letter, and it was written to (and at the request of) a CES Director, it has been dubbed the "Letter to a CES Director".

It all seems perfectly logical to me, and not that hard to figure out.  :unknw:

 

So the lesson in all this isn't that there might be something wrong with a "big list" format.  It's that apologists and CES Directors shouldn't ask people for a list of what they don't like about the Church if they don't want a list of things that someone doesn't like about the Church.

Edited by cinepro
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Buzzard Mentor

Buzzard

Posted
Posted

The "purpose" is actually quite easy to understand.

Jeremy was approached by a "CES Director" and asked to share his concerns. The format Jeremy chose was a letter, as opposed to sky writing, smoke signals, semaphore, telegram, or telepathy. Since Jeremy had several concerns, and the Director has apparently asked for his "concerns" (plural), those concerns were included in the letter. Since there were more than one, and Jeremy chose to group them together thematically, those concerns appear to be in some sort of list format.

Because it was a letter, and it was written to (and at the request of) a CES Director, it has been dubbed the "Letter to a CES Director".

It all seems perfectly logical to me, and not that hard to figure out.  :unknw:

 

So the lesson in all this isn't that there might be something wrong with a "big list" format.  It's that apologists and CES Directors shouldn't ask people for a list of what they don't like about the Church if they don't want a list of things that someone doesn't like about the Church.

Has it ever been disclosed just who the CES director was?  When I ran through the list, it just seemed like it had been lifted almost verbatim from other lists drawn up from various anti-LDS groups and websites. My thought was that if he had the same questions, often in the same order as other anti's, it seemed plausible that rather than a sincere request to a teacher he had a friendship with, the list was drawn up, and then the story was invented. And now, you go to his website, it is taking on the trappings of just another anti-Mormon ministry, complete with a solicitation for donations to continue his important work.

Son, there wasn't a question on that list that hasn't been seen and answered dozens of times before. And when your list was comprehensively answered, instead of thanking FAIR for it's efforts, you took their list of answers to whatever group you are now confederate with so you could "debunk" (interesting choice of words for a sincere seeker) their response. 

I don't want to accuse former Brother Runnels of concocting a big, fat, juicy tall tale, but that's sure what it smells like. 

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cinepro Grand Master

cinepro

Posted
Posted

Has it ever been disclosed just who the CES director was? 

 

Sounds like you have a suggested question for the podcast...

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Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted (edited)

C/P from another discussion forum, I'll be glad to provide if it's ok with the mods. Btw, this is a newly discovered discussion board that I stumbled across but would rather not read, but on occasion have. Anyway, I believe this may be from the guy who wrote the CES Letter. I didn't even know about the books JS later donated to the Nauvoo Library. Interesting list, doesn't sound like Joseph was very uneducated as a farm boy, or a young man. I wonder if they discussed this list in the interview John did. Anyway, it is something about BYU Studies taking down a link used by the CES letter showing the books Joseph Smith donated to the Nauvoo Library. ETA: I deleted the portions with links that I was unsure of posting.

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I want to be forthright and state that the motivation is unclear. This is not an accusation on malicious intent, but a statement of fact. The article now behind a paywall is "A NOTE ON THE NAUVOO LIBRARY AND LITERARY INSTITUTE" by Kenneth Godfrey of FARMs.

Luckily, it seems that they've only broken certain links. You can still access and download the PDF here.

The significance of the information is that it puts the following books in Joseph's control by at least Jan 1844.

** There's a research project in here to go through these books and look for parallel stories or naming conventions, but the point of this post is to show ****'s work was in his possession. That's the key component to claim that Joseph Mirrored ****'s Future State when he wrote the Book of Abraham. An interesting discussion on the paper itself can be ..... Edited by Tacenda
Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted

 

C/P from another discussion form, I'll be glad to provide if it's ok with the mods.  Btw, this is a newly discovered discussion board that I stumbled across but would rather not read, but on occasion have.  Anyway, I believe this may be from the guy who wrote the CES Letter.  I didn't even know about the books JS later donated to the Nauvoo Library.  Interesting list, doesn't sound like Joseph was very uneducated as a farm boy, or a young man.  I wonder if they discussed this list in the interview John did.    
 
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BYU studies is taking down the link used by the CES letter showing the Books Joseph Smith donated to the Nauvoo Library. Alternative link provided. (self.exmormon)

submitted

2 hours ago by curious_mormonTruth never lost ground by enquiry.

 

I want to be forthright and state that the motivation is unclear. This is not an accusation on malicious intent, but a statement of fact. The article now behind a paywall is "A NOTE ON THE NAUVOO LIBRARY AND LITERARY INSTITUTE" by Kenneth Godfrey of FARMs. (Credit to /u/beyeclean for the find).

Luckily, it seems that they've only broken certain links. You can still access and download the PDF here. Here's a secondary source for the list, by another author, just in case the alternative link also goes down.

The significance of the information is that it puts the following books in Joseph's control by at least Jan 1844.

** There's a research project in here to go through these books and look for parallel stories or naming conventions, but the point of this post is to show ****'s work was in his possession. That's the key component to claim that Joseph Mirrored ****'s Future State when he wrote the Book of Abraham. An interesting discussion on the paper itself can be .....

 

 

 

 

 
 

 

 
 

 

 

 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

if someone can argue that Joseph got the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham from books published after they were then that is amazing

1
Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

if someone can argue that Joseph got the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham from books published after they were then that is amazing

I know, I was just amazed at the books Joseph did read.  If he didn't read all of them, he surely referred to them and could have molded our religion and still be inspired to do it.  I believe that God has a purpose in it, he can't be there with us at all times, but he can push us where we need to go.  I haven't given up yet, I still think there is something to our religion, I just want the truth wherever it is, and yes I can handle it, the more inoculated I am from it.  Btw, would you mind deleting the portions highlighted that can take a reader to an anti board?  If you don't and the mods want to delete it, that's fine.  I just worry there is temple content.  My bad for even c/p from the site.  I'm here for the answers whether faith promoting or not.

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Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted

I know, I was just amazed at the books Joseph did read.  If he didn't read all of them, he surely referred to them and could have molded our religion and still be inspired to do it.  I believe that God has a purpose in it, he can't be there with us at all times, but he can push us where we need to go.  I haven't given up yet, I still think there is something to our religion, I just want the truth wherever it is, and yes I can handle it, the more inoculated I am from it.  Btw, would you mind deleting the portions highlighted that can take a reader to an anti board?  If you don't and the mods want to delete it, that's fine.  I just worry there is temple content.  My bad for even c/p from the site.  I'm here for the answers whether faith promoting or not.

 

for sure! I have glasses but I dunno how to do that! cha cha cha!

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

for sure! I have glasses but I dunno how to do that! cha cha cha!

You're funny Duncan! I'll just take the consequences, no need to edit my quote in your post.
  • 2 weeks later...
Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted

The Interpreter just posted my response to the Letter to a CES Director, "Eye of the Beholder, Law of the Harvest."

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/

62 pages, which is what I had time for.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

 

 

Literally the best article I have read in a while!!!! Thanks!

1
Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted (edited)

Looks like Runnells will be responding in a couple of weeks, can't wait....

Edited by Duncan
Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted (edited)

Looks like Runnells will be responding in a couple of weeks, can't wait....

I posted in John Dehlin's nixed thread yesterday, an early release of the first podcast, I wasn't aware Runnells is deaf. But soon enough the podcasts will be on MS, unless you want to look up the YouTube of it or I could link it but unable to at the moment. Wait...maybe you weren't talking about the Mormon Stories podcast but something else. Edited by Tacenda
why me Grand Master

why me

Posted
Posted (edited)

I know, I was just amazed at the books Joseph did read.  If he didn't read all of them, he surely referred to them and could have molded our religion and still be inspired to do it.  I believe that God has a purpose in it, he can't be there with us at all times, but he can push us where we need to go.  I haven't given up yet, I still think there is something to our religion, I just want the truth wherever it is, and yes I can handle it, the more inoculated I am from it.  Btw, would you mind deleting the portions highlighted that can take a reader to an anti board?  If you don't and the mods want to delete it, that's fine.  I just worry there is temple content.  My bad for even c/p from the site.  I'm here for the answers whether faith promoting or not.

No one has ever claimed that joseph did not read books. Rather it was when he read the books. In the early days at the time of the book of rmormon was coming forth, he read very little. But he did grow into his calling and sought learning when the church was being organized. From a nineteen year old helping his father in the business of treasure seeking to what he became was quite amazing. And it came from inspiration, revelation and learning.

 

http://www.jefflindsay.com/oneday.shtml

 

A good satire look at joseph and others helping to write the book of mormon.

Edited by why me
Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted

I posted in John Dehlin's nixed thread yesterday, an early release of the first podcast, I wasn't aware Runnells is deaf. But soon enough the podcasts will be on MS, unless you want to look up the YouTube of it or I could link it but unable to at the moment. Wait...maybe you weren't talking about the Mormon Stories podcast but something else.

ah, nope! the Mormon Interpreter article! it is great reading!

iamse7en Contributor

iamse7en

Posted
Posted

Money quotes...
 

Who wants to publish a web document declaring that “Joseph Smith and various unofficial apologists have failed to live up to my completely unrealistic expectations.”

 

Does Runnells himself come even remotely close to measuring up to the standard of what he demands from even the CES or FairMormon? Does he come close to putting “all of the information on the table” even one of the topics he treats?

 

When I more recently read Letter to a CES Director, I thought of it as Tanners Lite for the Twitter generation, and in that sense, all “old news” to me.
1
cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

I don't want to accuse former Brother Runnels of concocting a big, fat, juicy tall tale, but that's sure what it smells like. 

 

Similar to White's letters to the LDS missionary, who did not actually exist.  No big deal -- just a literary device.

Edited by cdowis
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Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

Brush it all away till the cows come home, all of you that put down the messenger. Who cares about anyone finding out a fact in church history that isn't taught, let them fall by the wayside. Keep teaching faith promoting stories of our leaders. It might be the greatest stories to behold. But keep teaching because truth is not very useful sometimes. Correlation dept, yahoo!

Rant over and out.

In the primary class I help in we were reviewing the last week or so of lessons when one of the boys asked why the men in the bible had more wives. The teacher went on to explain that even Brigham Young had several wives. But that we had polygamy only to take of the wives that had husbands die, maybe in wars or other things. But we don't practice anymore. One of the boys said, yeah like in the civil war? They were clueless as well as the teachers who are a young couple. But sitting there I knew I was letting an opportunity go to help innoculate, but kept my mouth shut, knowing the harm I could do.

This is what happens when it doesn't come from the top early on, Jeremy Runnells and thousands of others left in limbo or killed off, metaphorically. What is going to happen to everyone in that classroom when they find out polygamy wasn't only to take care of the wives during a specific time? Hello, to a whole new generation of disaffected members. The couple who taught are really young as I mentioned, so I guess they haven't really tried to look into anything. I hope they can handle that it happened a totally different way than they had been taught.

bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted

Brush it all away till the cows come home, all of you that put down the messenger. Who cares about anyone finding out a fact in church history that isn't taught, let them fall by the wayside. Keep teaching faith promoting stories of our leaders. It might be the greatest stories to behold. But keep teaching because truth is not very useful sometimes. Correlation dept, yahoo!

Rant over and out.

In the primary class I help in we were reviewing the last week or so of lessons when one of the boys asked why the men in the bible had more wives. The teacher went on to explain that even Brigham Young had several wives. But that we had polygamy only to take of the wives that had husbands die, maybe in wars or other things. But we don't practice anymore. One of the boys said, yeah like in the civil war? They were clueless as well as the teachers who are a young couple. But sitting there I knew I was letting an opportunity go to help innoculate, but kept my mouth shut, knowing the harm I could do.

This is what happens when it doesn't come from the top early on, Jeremy Runnells and thousands of others left in limbo or killed off, metaphorically. What is going to happen to everyone in that classroom when they find out polygamy wasn't only to take care of the wives during a specific time? Hello, to a whole new generation of disaffected members. The couple who taught are really young as I mentioned, so I guess they haven't really tried to look into anything. I hope they can handle that it happened a totally different way than they had been taught.

 

Tacenda what stopped you from gently adding more correct information to those kids in the class?

 

You always seem to get so upset when these kinds of things happen, while at the same time doing absolutely nothing yourself to try to 'fix' them.  There comes a point when anyone who feels strongly about something, needs to either put up or shut up.  Either try to be a part of the solution, or stop constantly complaining about the problem.

 

Said with love, and not meant to be hurtful....

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Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

Tacenda what stopped you from gently adding more correct information to those kids in the class?

You always seem to get so upset when these kinds of things happen, while at the same time doing absolutely nothing yourself to try to 'fix' them. There comes a point when anyone who feels strongly about something, needs to either put up or shut up. Either try to be a part of the solution, or stop constantly complaining about the problem.

Said with love, and not meant to be hurtful....

If you'd been there and seen and heard what I did you would see why I didn't. Last year I mentioned the seerstone in the hat but didn't harbor in it. So I'm very willing. This boy was hurt they practised it in the bible, let alone in our religion. And another time I sensed the female teacher balk at polygamy in another lesson. I've never seen boys or girls, it's an all boy class, so inquisitive about lessons. I credit how well this young couple teach, just wish they knew some things and were able to innoculate. I have no real authority here, I'm not teaching, just helping with an incredible young man who is a true hero in life, that suffers with a devastating neurological brain disorder.
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