Transition From Jehovah To Elohim

[pogi]

From a discussion in another thread I became curious about the transition that the early saints underwent in their understanding of the Godhead, specifically their understanding of The Father.

 

The singular deity of Jewish worship was Jehovah.  He was the one that they prayed to, loved and feared.  Do we believe that the Apostles recognized Christ as The Jehovah born in the flesh?  If so, when did they come to this realization, and how might that transition in belief and worship/prayer taken place?

 

I can't imagine how that realization might have affected them - to walk, talk, laugh, cry, and eat with the God they have prayed to, feared, and worshipped their entire lives!  To see Him dressed as a man with the same flesh and attributes that we have would have been something else (for lack of a better phrase). 

 

Did they continue to pray to Jehovah even while Christ was alive, or did they shift their worship to Elohim?  Was the Godhead properly understood by the early Apostles, or did this knowledge come only through modern day revelation, restored from the times of Adam?  Did they make the transition from viewing the Father (Jehovah) as a being of spirit to an exalted body of flesh and bones (Elohim)?  This all just seems like it must have been an enormous change in perspective from what they knew and believed.  I would expect them to have elaborated more to clarify the matter for Jewish converts.  Explaining things like, "we don't pray to Jehovah anymore, we pray to Elohim.  Christ was The Jehovah and he had a glorified Father of flesh.  This is who we give all glory to now."

 

It is my belief that they came to understand the Godhead as 3 distinct beings (but it is unclear to me when this happened).  I don't believe that they were aware of the physical nature of the Father.  I think they believed that he was a spirit.  I think that it wasn't until this dispensation of the fullness of times that the knowledge of the true nature of the Godhead was restored to man.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[JLHPROF]

My HONEST thoughts...Christ wasn't considered Jehovah prior to his resurrection at any point in the world's history until it was theorized by certain Church scholars around the turn of the century.  And doctrinally it makes more sense to me that he wasn't than current doctrinal teachings.

 

But then we bring up the topic of Adam-God and the thread goes off course...

[pogi]

My HONEST thoughts...Christ wasn't considered Jehovah prior to his resurrection at any point in the world's history until it was theorized by certain Church scholars around the turn of the century.  And doctrinally it makes more sense to me that he wasn't than current doctrinal teachings.

 

But then we bring up the topic of Adam-God and the thread goes off course...

 

We do know that they believed in the divinity of the Savior as evidenced by Clo. 2:9 and others.  Was their understanding then that The Father was Jehovah (spirit), The Son was Jesus (flesh), and there was a Holy Ghost (spirit), and all were divine?

Edited April 30, 2014 by pogi

[Ran]

How does this distinction between Jehovah and Elohim correspond with 1 Chronicles 22:1, for example, where the two nouns are juxtaposed as though it were referring to one and the same reality?

 

"Then David said, This is the house of the Lord God [YHWH (Jehovah) Elohim], and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel."

[mfbukowski]

 

How does this distinction between Jehovah and Elohim correspond with 1 Chronicles 22:1, for example, where the two nouns are juxtaposed as though it were referring to one and the same reality?

 

"Then David said, This is the house of the Lord God [YHWH (Jehovah) Elohim], and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel."

 

I think you are not LDS?

 

We would call this "Divine Investiture" where someone else is authorized to speak for God as if he is God.  An old testament example might be where Jacob wrestles with "the Lord" who it turns out is actually an angel, and then gets the name "Israel" meaning "one who wrestles with God".  (Metaphorically of course)

 

But sometimes we are actually closet modalists kind of, because we call Christ, rightly, "The Father of our salvation".   That sort of thinking relates to Paul's discussion also about Christ being the "second Adam"- the first Adam brought the fall, the second Adam brought salvation.  So "Adam" is at the same time a person's name as well as a title that might apply to others by analogy.

 

I mean after all I am the "Donald Trump" of this board, aren't I ??    

 

More like Donald Duck....  the local quack....

 

So there is a real sense in which Christ is "our father" as well as the Son of God.

 

So it gets confusing because many times titles are mixed with names by analogy.  And sometimes both might be called "Lord" because after all weren't they both?

Edited April 30, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Kevin Christensen]

Try reading The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God by Margaret Barker. (edited to correct the link to Amazon)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0664253954/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d5_i4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0F296GA7WPV4FE3N0PQY&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846

A sample of the approach is here:

http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

Brant Gardner has a helpful discussion here:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2003-fair-conference/2003-monotheism-messiah-and-mormons-book

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited May 1, 2014 by Kevin Christensen

[JLHPROF]

We do know that they believed in the divinity of the Savior as evidenced by Clo. 2:9 and others.  Was their understanding then that The Father was Jehovah (spirit), The Son was Jesus (flesh), and there was a Holy Ghost (spirit), and all were divine?

 

I think we're underselling the doctrinal knowledge of the apostles.  They were taught the gospel restored to the earth through Christ, and while they may have been born into Judaic tradition they had the fulness of the Gospel restored by revelation, just as we do today.

 

I am sure they understood the Godhead of the Father (resurrected being), the Son/Messiah (Christ) and the Holy Ghost (spirit).  Christ obviously did and he taught them.

Now how these three members are connected with the Old Testament Eloheim and Jehovah is where the real question comes in, and what the Apostles believed in this matter might not be clearly established.

[pogi]

I think we're underselling the doctrinal knowledge of the apostles.  They were taught the gospel restored to the earth through Christ, and while they may have been born into Judaic tradition they had the fulness of the Gospel restored by revelation, just as we do today.

 

I am sure they understood the Godhead of the Father (resurrected being), the Son/Messiah (Christ) and the Holy Ghost (spirit).  Christ obviously did and he taught them.

Now how these three members are connected with the Old Testament Eloheim and Jehovah is where the real question comes in, and what the Apostles believed in this matter might not be clearly established.

 

They did not really understand the doctrine of the resurrection while Christ was still alive.  How could they know that the Father was a resurrected being and understand what that really meant?  If they did come to understand this, it was not until after the resurrection and it would have been written and explained to the church in a revelation, but there is no evidence of that. 

 

I don't think it is taught that they had the "fullness" of the gospel in the time of Christ.  My understanding is that the fullness was saved for this, the dispensation of the fullness of times, where all of the doctrines and keys which were given in previous dispensations are restored.  For example, they did not hold the keys of Elijah in Christ's dispensation as far as I can understand.  These were saved for the last days before the second coming.  I also doubt that they practiced the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in the dispensation of Christ.  All of these things were to be brought together and made whole in their fullness in this last dispensation. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

Try reading The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God by Margaret Barker.

http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

A sample of the approach is here:

http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

Brant Gardner has a helpful discussion here:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2003-fair-conference/2003-monotheism-messiah-and-mormons-book

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

 

Thanks, I'll give those a read!

[Bob Crockett]

The Church didn't even have it straight until the First Presidency issued a doctrinal pronouncement around 1914 or 1916. 

[BCSpace]

Do we believe that the Apostles recognized Christ as The Jehovah born in the flesh?

 

 

Jesus made that claim while in the flesh when he said "Before Abraham was, I am". The Jews recognized that blasphemy and immediately took up stones.  The NT also in several places identifies Jesus with the OT Jehovah, so yes, I'd say we believe that the Apostles recognized Christ as Jehovah in the flesh.

[JLHPROF]

The Church didn't even have it straight until the First Presidency issued a doctrinal pronouncement around 1914 or 1916. 

 

Assuming we have it straight now...perhaps it would be better to say "The Church didn't decide on a final position until 1914 or 1916".

[JLHPROF]

Jesus made that claim while in the flesh when he said "Before Abraham was, I am". The Jews recognized that blasphemy and immediately took up stones.  The NT also in several places identifies Jesus with the OT Jehovah, so yes, I'd say we believe that the Apostles recognized Christ as Jehovah in the flesh.

 

I am not sure I come to the same conclusion from those references.

[BCSpace]

I am not sure I come to the same conclusion from those references.

 

I'd say it's the only possible conclusion.  For example:

 

Jehovah is the Savior. Isaiah 43:3, 11 (see also Isaiah 45:15, 21 and Isaiah 49:26).

Christ is the Savior. Acts 4:10-12 (see also John 4:42, and 1 John 4:14).

 

Jehovah is the Holy One of God. Isaiah 54:5.

Christ is the Holy One of God. Mark 1:24.

 

Jehovah is the Redeemer. Isaiah 49:26 (see also Isaiah 43:14, 44:6, 48:17, 49:7, 54:5, 8 ).

Christ is the Redeemer. Titus 2:13 (see also Galatians 3:13, Acts 20:28, and Colossians 1:14).

 

Jehovah is the Judge. Psalms 9:8 9see also Isaiah 33:22).

Christ is the Judge. John 5:22 (see also Revelation 3:5).

 

Jehovah is the Creator. Genesis 2:7-9 (see also 2 Kings 19:15, Isaiah 42:5, 45:8, 12, 14, 18, Jeremiah 33:2).

Christ is the Creator. Colossians 1:16 (see also John 1:3, Hebrews 1:1-3, and Revelation 4:11).

 

Jehovah is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.

Christ is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:17.

 

Jehovah is the Shepherd. Psalms 23:1.

Christ is the Shepherd. John 10:14.

 

Jehovah is the Foundation. Deuteronomy 32:4, 15 (see also Isaiah 44:8 ).

Christ is the Foundation. 1 Corinthians 10:4.

 

Jehovah is the King of Israel. Isaiah 44:6.

Christ is the King of Israel. John 1:49.

 

Jehovah sent John the Baptist. Malachi 3:1.

Christ sent John the Baptist. Luke 1:16-17.

 

Jehovah Pierced by the Jews. Zechariah 12:10.

Christ Pierced by the Jews. John 19:37.

Edited May 1, 2014 by BCSpace

[Opinion Slayer]

This is a great question, I believe there were many things that the Apostles did not understand in fact in the JST, Mark 14:36-38 while Jesus was preparing to enter the garden of Gethsemane they were still "Wondering" if he was The Messiah. It wasn't until Christ was resurrected and taught the apostles for 40 days that they began to understand the full scope of who He was and the fullness of the gospel as we know it. Just imagine the knowledge and wisdom of all that He taught in those incredible 40 days?!

[BCSpace]

This is a great question, I believe there were many things that the Apostles did not understand in fact in the JST, Mark 14:36-38 while Jesus was preparing to enter the garden of Gethsemane they were still "Wondering" if he was The Messiah. It wasn't until Christ was resurrected and taught the apostles for 40 days that they began to understand the full scope of who He was and the fullness of the gospel as we know it. Just imagine the knowledge and wisdom of all that He taught in those incredible 40 days?!

 

Seems to me like they began to doubt what they already knew and/or had been told.

 

Well before that event, Peter knew for sure that Jesus is the Christ in Matthew 16:18.

Edited May 1, 2014 by BCSpace

[pogi]

Seems to me like they began to doubt what they already knew and/or had been told.

 

Well before that event, Peter knew for sure that Jesus is the Christ in Matthew 16:18.

 

True, they (at least Peter) knew that He was the Messiah at that time.  But when did that translate to Him being Jehovah?  I don't think it was Jewish understanding that the Messiah would actually be the Father of Heaven, but I think they believed that he would be sent from Jehovah.  

 

Those are good parallels you list from scripture.  But I wonder if the Apostles recognized them at the time.  Understandably, it took them awhile to catch on to things.  Christ straight up told them that he would rise from the dead after three days and they didn't understand it.  He told them that he would give his life for them, but they didn't understand why and tried to stop him.  They were shocked at his miracles of commanding the elements.  If they recognized him as Jehovah, there would have been no shock or surprise, asking among themselves "what manner of man is this?" 

 

If and when they recognized that Christ was Jehovah, when did they begin to wonder who Christ was praying to then?  Jehovah has a Father in heaven that he prays to?  That must have been a radical realization. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by pogi

[Ahab]

It's when some people think about each person by name that they start to get a little confused, isn't it. One is the son of another, and the one who came here as our Savior was the son of the Father in heaven, but what do we call each person by name? Couldn't the son have been acting in the name of his Father and so we call the son by the name of the Father because of that fact? But then how would we distinguish each one by name if we referred to both as Jehovah, or Yahweh, or whatever version of that name you prefer? Someone would need to come up with a solution to that dilemma or some people might end up getting confused. It would be kinda like referring to each of them, and both of them, as God.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Ahab

[halconero]

Both Elohim and Jehovah are titles more than personal names. I have no problem with their application either the Father or Jesus. They seem to be transferable in many cases. Jehovah itself is the latinization of YHWH, or Yahweh, and Jesus doesn't seem to have a problem with its flexibility, given his use of it in D&C.

 

Edit: As to the Apostles knowledge of Christ's nature, I cannot say. It depends on what Gospel you're referencing from. The Markan apostles are somewhat clueless, but the apostles in John are far more informed on Jesus, the Father, and their nature, though still somewhat in the dark.

Edited May 1, 2014 by halconero

[Ahab]

Both Elohim and Jehovah are titles more than personal names. I have no problem with their application either the Father or Jesus. They seem to be transferable in many cases. Jehovah itself is the latinization of YHWH, or Yahweh, and Jesus doesn't seem to have a problem with its flexibility, given his use of it in D&C.

I agree, but that still doesn't solve the problem of how we can know which person is being referred to by a name, or title. They are both Jehovah, and they're both Elohim, and they are both also God. We simply "use" certain names to try to clarify which person we are talking about.

Edit: As to the Apostles knowledge of Christ's nature, I cannot say. It depends on what Gospel you're referencing from. The Markan apostles are somewhat clueless, but the apostles in John are far more informed on Jesus, the Father, and their nature, though still somewhat in the dark.

If our Lord and his apostles didn't have any nice long talks during meals and what not during the 40 days between our Lord's resurrection and ascension into heaven I would be totally flabbergasted. And I'm not. Edited May 1, 2014 by Ahab

[JLHPROF]

I'd say it's the only possible conclusion.  For example:

 

Jehovah is the Savior. Isaiah 43:3, 11 (see also Isaiah 45:15, 21 and Isaiah 49:26).

Christ is the Savior. Acts 4:10-12 (see also John 4:42, and 1 John 4:14).

 

Jehovah is the Holy One of God. Isaiah 54:5.

Christ is the Holy One of God. Mark 1:24.

 

Jehovah is the Redeemer. Isaiah 49:26 (see also Isaiah 43:14, 44:6, 48:17, 49:7, 54:5, 8 ).

Christ is the Redeemer. Titus 2:13 (see also Galatians 3:13, Acts 20:28, and Colossians 1:14).

 

Jehovah is the Judge. Psalms 9:8 9see also Isaiah 33:22).

Christ is the Judge. John 5:22 (see also Revelation 3:5).

 

Jehovah is the Creator. Genesis 2:7-9 (see also 2 Kings 19:15, Isaiah 42:5, 45:8, 12, 14, 18, Jeremiah 33:2).

Christ is the Creator. Colossians 1:16 (see also John 1:3, Hebrews 1:1-3, and Revelation 4:11).

 

Jehovah is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.

Christ is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:17.

 

Jehovah is the Shepherd. Psalms 23:1.

Christ is the Shepherd. John 10:14.

 

Jehovah is the Foundation. Deuteronomy 32:4, 15 (see also Isaiah 44:8 ).

Christ is the Foundation. 1 Corinthians 10:4.

 

Jehovah is the King of Israel. Isaiah 44:6.

Christ is the King of Israel. John 1:49.

 

Jehovah sent John the Baptist. Malachi 3:1.

Christ sent John the Baptist. Luke 1:16-17.

 

Jehovah Pierced by the Jews. Zechariah 12:10.

Christ Pierced by the Jews. John 19:37.

 

But then there are:

 

Christ appeared to nobody before the Brother of Jared. Ether 3:15

but

Jehovah (the Lord) appeared to Adam and Enoch.  Genesis 3:8 & Moses 7:4, D&C 107:49

 

Jehovah (the Lord) was the father of our spirits. Zech 12:1, Jeremiah 1:4-5, Isaiah 42:5, Deut 14:1

but

Christ was a spirit child like us.  Abraham 3:27

 

Jehovah (the Lord) had power over all mortals.

but

Christ was a premortal spirit with no body and could have no power over man.  Joseph Smith TPJS 181

 

Jehovah (the Lord) expected to be prayed to. Zechariah 8:22

but

Christ wanted us to only pray to the Father.  3 Neph 29:30-31, Matt 6:9-13

 

If in the OT era scriptures GOD refers to our resurrected glorified Elohim/Heavenly Father and LORD refers to the spirit body pre-earth Jehovah/Christ then we have to apply this as a standard.  And there are references to Jehovah the Lord that CAN'T refer to a pre-mortal Christ.  And saying, well that just means Heavenly Father instead removes the standard as reliable.

 

I am not sold on Christ as Jehovah in the OT.  Jehovah had too much authority and too many physical body attributes to be a pre-mortal spirit, even one as righteous as Christ.  After his resurrection I believe he took/was given the office of Jehovah so scriptures like D&C 110:2-3 make sense.

[Kevin Christensen]

You really, really, ought to read Barker's The Great Angel.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Ahab]

You really, really, ought to read Barker's The Great Angel.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

When you understand what you read you should be able to sum it all up in a nice little paragraph.

So which one are we usually referring to when we use the name Elohim? And which one do we usually refer to as Jehovah? To make it easy you to understand you can just refer to which one is the son of the other, like how we usually tell people that we refer to the Father of Jesus Christ as Elohim while referring to Jesus Christ as Jehovah.