Texas Flds Ranch Seized

[ERayR]

It's a good thing, no matter how Texas went about it, it probably would have happened sooner, if the public hadn't cried about it. The ranch was a scene of a vicious crime on innocent children, I did read the article. The people looking after the children were brainwashed, they were incubated in that compound with no outside intervention. Now that they are out in the community there is a chance for these people to get help. It's the best thing to have happened. How could it not be? Anyone remember Waco, Jonestown? Need I say more?

Are you going to be so ecstatic when the First Baptist buses roll up to your house? Honestly do you really not see how this is no different than the mobs of the Kirtland Ohio and Missouri periods of early COJCOLDS history?

[Kenngo1969]

Was the temple part of the property that was seized?  Where is the temple in relation to the ranch?  Anybody know?  (Just curious.)

 

 

The temple is among the housing part of the ranch.   But I'm pretty sure it hasn't been used as a temple since the raid, when Jeffs called it desecrated. ...

 

 

I think the temple was located at the center part of the ranch.

 

I see.  Thank you!

[Tacenda]

Are you going to be so ecstatic when the First Baptist buses roll up to your house? Honestly do you really not see how this is no different than the mobs of the Kirtland Ohio and Missouri periods of early COJCOLDS history?

You and Darren are clueless on this matter, please do your homework, I have. ETA: Sorry, maybe "clueless" was too harsh. It just seems you haven't read the reports on this case, you mean to tell me what Jeffs did to these little girls, raped them, isn't vicious Darren???

[ERayR]

You and Darren are clueless on this matter, please do your homework, I have.

 

Tacenda from what I read of Darren's post he is far from clueless and as for me I have a pretty good understanding of what is and was happening.  What appears evident to me is that you haven't a clue about the constitutional rights that You, me or these people have and you seem to be clueless that if these peoples constitutional rights can be trampled so can yours.  Whatever you think they are doing that is wrong can be stopped and punished much better if these rights are observe and held sacrosanct.

 

Tacenda go after them as vigorously as you possibly can and with everything you have and I will support you with all I have as long as you don't violate their constitutional rights.

[Calm]

You and Darren are clueless on this matter, please do your homework, I have. ETA: Sorry, maybe "clueless" was too harsh. It just seems you haven't read the reports on this case, you mean to tell me what Jeffs did to these little girls, raped them, isn't vicious Darren???

And Jeffs is locked up so let's traumatise them further by having them forced to move to go into hiding out of fear of being taken away from the only people they know and love.

[The Nehor]

First they came for the pedophiles and I said nothing because I was not a pedophile.

Then there was much rejoicing.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

First they came for the pedophiles and I said nothing because I was not a pedophile.

Then there was much rejoicing.

 You sir are an idiot..

You all defend Joseph Smith when you own historians say he married 14 year-old girls...

"Girls often got married that young back then."

In the FLDS culture, that hasn't changed. That is what these men and women grew up knowing- for multiple generations. These men are not "pedophiles" wanting hot teenie sex- but men who grew up with the religious teaching that young women raised properly are ready for marriage at a younger age. Is there really much wrong with that considering the tramps and whores being raised today? Do you think society is raising morally superior children?

Also, take note, it was the GIRLS who approached their fathers when they felt that they were ready for marriage and had their names submitted to the "prophet" for inspiration on whom they were to marry. Yes, Jeffs, did things that were not correct, but to persecute and terrorize an entire people for that is ridiculous. They should have been helped and encouraged to remember and return to ways similar to those under Rulon Jeffs, or better, Leroy Johnson.

The ignorance of these people and their culture by some posters here who pretend to judge, is astounding.

[bluebell]

Oh, there were crimes alright, but "vicious crimes"? You need to place the crimes into the context that those convicted from the YFZ raid were men marrying 16 year olds by their consent and their parent's consent. Before the YFZ ranch was establised, Texas law allowed 16 year olds to marry. That law was changed due to the establishment of the YFZ ranch which everyone knew was associated with Warrens. "Vicious crimes" I think is overdoing the label of what was happening in the ranch. I fully support convicting those cuplable but not how texas went about doing it. Texas already had the YFZ under surveillance and I think an undecover officer inside the ranch for a full two years. It's strange that despite all that it took a prank phone call to sweep in and authoritatively take all the children away.

 

One thing I also need to mention that by placing these kids into foster care that, far more than living on this ranch, would expose them to pronography, drug use, and sexual abuse (the vicious kind).

 

As I understand it, 12 and 13 year old girls were raped in the temple by Warren.  I'm honestly fine if you don't want to classify that as 'vicious' but i have no problem if someone else does.

[bluebell]

 You sir are an idiot..

You all defend Joseph Smith when you own historians say he married 14 year-old girls...

"Girls often got married that young back then."

In the FLDS culture, that hasn't changed. That is what these men and women grew up knowing- for multiple generations. These men are not "pedophiles" wanting hot teenie sex- but men who grew up with the religious teaching that young women raised properly are ready for marriage at a younger age. Is there really much wrong with that considering the tramps and whores being raised today? Do you think society is raising morally superior children?

Also, take note, it was the GIRLS who approached their fathers when they felt that they were ready for marriage and had their names submitted to the "prophet" for inspiration on whom they were to marry. Yes, Jeffs, did things that were not correct, but to persecute and terrorize an entire people for that is ridiculous. They should have been helped and encouraged to remember and return to ways similar to those under Rulon Jeffs, or better, Leroy Johnson.

The ignorance of these people and their culture by some posters here who pretend to judge, is astounding.

 

It wasn't illegal for JS to marry a 14 (whom he likely did not sleep with until later, if at all).  It is illegal for those men to marry 12 and 13 year olds and have sex with them.

 

You can get up on any high horse you want to, but it is what it is.  

[BookofMormonLuvr]

It wasn't illegal for JS to marry a 14 (whom he likely did not sleep with until later, if at all).  It is illegal for those men to marry 12 and 13 year olds and have sex with them.

 

You can get up on any high horse you want to, but it is what it is.  

 

So legality is what makes one a "pedophile" or not?

Good to know. 

[Tacenda]

You sir are an idiot..

You all defend Joseph Smith when you own historians say he married 14 year-old girls...

"Girls often got married that young back then."

In the FLDS culture, that hasn't changed. That is what these men and women grew up knowing- for multiple generations. These men are not "pedophiles" wanting hot teenie sex- but men who grew up with the religious teaching that young women raised properly are ready for marriage at a younger age. Is there really much wrong with that considering the tramps and whores being raised today? Do you think society is raising morally superior children?

Also, take note, it was the GIRLS who approached their fathers when they felt that they were ready for marriage and had their names submitted to the "prophet" for inspiration on whom they were to marry. Yes, Jeffs, did things that were not correct, but to persecute and terrorize an entire people for that is ridiculous. They should have been helped and encouraged to remember and return to ways similar to those under Rulon Jeffs, or better, Leroy Johnson.

The ignorance of these people and their culture by some posters here who pretend to judge, is astounding.

Nehor is who you go after? You skipped over me? I could take it, and disagree, those little girls were brainwashed. Ever listen to the tapes? Probably not.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Nehor is who you go after? You skipped over me? I could take it, and disagree, those little girls were brainwashed. Ever listen to the tapes? Probably not.

 

No, you were included in that... read the final sentence.

I have probably forgotten more about Fundamanetalist Mormon doctrine and practices then you know about it

They have been taught younger age marriage for women for generations- since the practice was permitted in society. Jeffs wasn't perpetuating, in that instance, some random thing he imagined up on his own.

That being said, Warren was raised with more awareness of the outside world then most of the FLDS people, and I believe took on a spirit of immorality that led to him doing some of the things HE should be rightfully made to answer for.

The same cannot be said for most of the men convicted in the other cases. These were men raised in Hildale, strictly within the confines of the community and community teaching. They were not raving sex fiends- they were just men who believed they were following the will of God. They were good husbands and fathers.

It is unfortunate that Warren was able to take the reigns from his father... Fred Jessop would've been a far better and kinder leader. The authorities would do best to remind the FLDS of the good days, when they lived without fear of having their families split up at Warren's will, if they can be reminded of the happy feelings of the past maybe they will wake up and seek different leadership. But the way the authorities have handled it just gives them a justified feeling of persecution and further convinces them that they are on the right course.

[Calm]

Were the girls prepubescent? If not, even if Jeffs was a statutory rapist or even a forcible one (if the girls did not give consent, even if they didn't have the legal right to), he is not a pedophile. From what I can tell, the 12 year old had hit puberty. I am not trying to diminish what he did, just suggesting accuracy is best.

Otoh, he has been accused of sodomizing 5 and 6 year old boys, though I don't know if he was convicted of that and if not, why not.

That Texas had to change their laws so they could go after him for rape and not just polygamy/bigamy is rather sad.

[The Nehor]

 You sir are an idiot..

 

Yes, glad you figured out my career. Here is a documentary about the job:

 

 

 

You all defend Joseph Smith when you own historians say he married 14 year-old girls...

"Girls often got married that young back then."

 

True.

 

 

In the FLDS culture, that hasn't changed. That is what these men and women grew up knowing- for multiple generations. These men are not "pedophiles" wanting hot teenie sex- but men who grew up with the religious teaching that young women raised properly are ready for marriage at a younger age. Is there really much wrong with that considering the tramps and whores being raised today? Do you think society is raising morally superior children?

 

Quite right, the true definition for those going after post-pubescent minors is ephebophile.

 

pedophiles - people stuck with a disgusting fetish, usually against their own desires.

 

ephebophile - creeper who is attracted to post-pubescents but chooses to target minors because he he or she is a pervert trying to defy societal mores, usually because they like targeting the vulnerable.

 

So in fact they are, in most cases, worse then pedophiles and have less of an excuse. Glad we could clear that up. You are still sick for defending either.

 

 

 Also, take note, it was the GIRLS who approached their fathers when they felt that they were ready for marriage and had their names submitted to the "prophet" for inspiration on whom they were to marry. Yes, Jeffs, did things that were not correct, but to persecute and terrorize an entire people for that is ridiculous. They should have been helped and encouraged to remember and return to ways similar to those under Rulon Jeffs, or better, Leroy Johnson.

 

No, I think persecuting and terrorizing people for violating the law is a fine thing in this case. I think we should also liberally heap scorn upon them. I believe we should help them too but I suggest we do so by breaking up their society and arresting the criminals amongst them.

 

 

 The ignorance of these people and their culture by some posters here who pretend to judge, is astounding.

 

No, I understand the people and their culture quite well. I just think we should destroy said culture and salt the ground behind it.

 

I further worry that you are some kind of messed-up weirdo for defending these people and if you ever try to date my sister I will beat you to a pulp. Just an fyi.

[Tacenda]

No, you were included in that... read the final sentence.

I have probably forgotten more about Fundamanetalist Mormon doctrine and practices then you know about it

They have been taught younger age marriage for women for generations- since the practice was permitted in society. Jeffs wasn't perpetuating, in that instance, some random thing he imagined up on his own.

That being said, Warren was raised with more awareness of the outside world then most of the FLDS people, and I believe took on a spirit of immorality that led to him doing some of the things HE should be rightfully made to answer for.

The same cannot be said for most of the men convicted in the other cases. These were men raised in Hildale, strictly within the confines of the community and community teaching. They were not raving sex fiends- they were just men who believed they were following the will of God. They were good husbands and fathers.

It is unfortunate that Warren was able to take the reigns from his father... Fred Jessop would've been a far better and kinder leader. The authorities would do best to remind the FLDS of the good days, when they lived without fear of having their families split up at Warren's will, if they can be reminded of the happy feelings of the past maybe they will wake up and seek different leadership. But the way the authorities have handled it just gives them a justified feeling of persecution and further convinces them that they are on the right course.

I agree, the earlier years before Warren took over were happier times, before book burnings, before pets were taken and shot, before men's families were given to other men. Back when children were not all homeschooled, and no one checks on them. Too many to list.

My nephew on my husband's side actually grew up in polygamy and then joined the church. He has fond memories of his childhood. But the sect under Warren is quite different, not all, but some were/are evil. And I believe some of them were on the compound. I've read several first hand accounts in books. And they mention some of the people at the ranch and these were not nice people. The ways they would discipline their children were inhumane. Ever watch the Oprah show when she visits the compound/ranch? One scene, she's in the classroom with the children. She asks them questions like what their favorite Disney movie is, and none had ever heard of a Disney movie, not that that is abuse, but there didn't seem to be laughter, or any free will, there spirits were broken, and that's a crime, IMO. Legally, not enough to boot them out, except for the reason that at the ranch a crime was allowed to happen, and no one stopped it.

You're right, Warren started acting out immorally, when he was on the lamb he went to Vegas and was living it up, went to the girlie shows and dressed in shorts and short sleeve shirts, drove a red Escalade, etc. You probably know they aren't allowed to wear red.

You mention that they will feel persecuted now, and you mention they need to remember the good times, I think they will do that on the outside now, despite feeling persecuted. Besides, people aren't even prosecuted any longer for living polygamy. They'll realize that quicker on the outside. They will most likely work and get to know people on the outside where before they wouldn't have, behind locked gates with survellience cameras. Might I add they also had an incinerator that reached such high temps that it could cremate. Did you know that? And you know how well they keep birth/death certificates.

Government is their enemie, they have a saying called "bleed the beast", which means, take all they can from the government.

I could go on but doubt anyone even read this far.

[Calm]

Define "on the outside".

[Storm Rider]

As I understand it, 12 and 13 year old girls were raped in the temple by Warren.  I'm honestly fine if you don't want to classify that as 'vicious' but i have no problem if someone else does.

 

That is what the local press said when they found a bed inside the temple. I am not sure I believe the reports that this bed was used immediately after the marriage to consummate it. I don't know these people and I find the allegation on its surface to be an unfounded accusation.  Has this been verified?  Is this a rite within Warren's group?  Is it done for every marriage?  Once you begin to ask questions it begins to boggle the mind.

 

There is a bed in most temples....it is used for those situations when someone is feeling unwell. I wonder if a Southern Baptist were to see such a thing if they would not make the same allegation?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Define "on the outside".

Seeing as they have been driven further underground- I have the same question.

[Tacenda]

What don't you understand about outside?? They aren't behind a security gate with survellience. They aren't hiding from anyone, but they were kept in at the ranch. Why do they need to hide, since the decriminalization of polygamy? No need. Better yet, they are now better seen, what places do you think they are going to hide that's better than a compound situation.

I have a strong feeling it could have been a Waco/Jonestown situation with a mass suicide, with them being spread out now it's not as likely. Warren is constantly stating a date when the world is going to end, he may very well have been getting close to having them end it, while he's safe and secure. They probably want the promised life after this one, since they've lived a certain way.

[Darren10]

You and Darren are clueless on this matter, please do your homework, I have. ETA: Sorry, maybe "clueless" was too harsh. It just seems you haven't read the reports on this case, you mean to tell me what Jeffs did to these little girls, raped them, isn't vicious Darren???

 

Jeffs was not at the YFZ compound in Texas so far as I know.

[Darren10]

As I understand it, 12 and 13 year old girls were raped in the temple by Warren.  I'm honestly fine if you don't want to classify that as 'vicious' but i have no problem if someone else does.

 

Warren Jeffs was not at the YFZ compound in Texas so far as I know.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Tacenda is correct about Warren. He had an unusual obsession with documenting everything he did on audio tape. So they do have audio tapes of him within the "Temple" instructing his young wives on sex and apparently engaging in sex with them.

[bluebell]

That is what the local press said when they found a bed inside the temple. I am not sure I believe the reports that this bed was used immediately after the marriage to consummate it. I don't know these people and I find the allegation on its surface to be an unfounded accusation. Has this been verified? Is this a rite within Warren's group? Is it done for every marriage? Once you begin to ask questions it begins to boggle the mind.

There is a bed in most temples....it is used for those situations when someone is feeling unwell. I wonder if a Southern Baptist were to see such a thing if they would not make the same allegation?

They have audio tapes of sexual sessions with his wives, including the young ones.

[Tacenda]

Thanks bluebell and BookofMormonluvr, I was starting to think I was going crazy.  I'd link the site for Darren10 to listen for himself, but no one should have to listen to that. 

[ERayR]

What don't you understand about outside?? They aren't behind a security gate with survellience. They aren't hiding from anyone, but they were kept in at the ranch. Why do they need to hide, since the decriminalization of polygamy? No need. Better yet, they are now better seen, what places do you think they are going to hide that's better than a compound situation.

I have a strong feeling it could have been a Waco/Jonestown situation with a mass suicide, with them being spread out now it's not as likely. Warren is constantly stating a date when the world is going to end, he may very well have been getting close to having them end it, while he's safe and secure. They probably want the promised life after this one, since they've lived a certain way.

 

Tacenda stop and gain your composure and think about it for a minute.  When the state of Texas and the Baptist rolled in and loaded up women and children they had a chance to defect in mass.  I don't remember any of them asking for protection.  Instead what I saw was worried parents trying to get their children and get back home. 

 

To me this latest move just adds insult to injury.  The state of Texas has now found a way to make the group pay for the harassment inflicted on them.