Another Fatal Blow Against Meldrum's Heartland Theory

[livy111us]

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/22/2/7RoperFieldsNepal_JS%20Times%20and%20Seasons%20and%20CA%20Ruins.pdf

 

 

Matt Roper and others have published their word print studies done on the Sept/Oct Times and Seasons articles that place The Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica and Meldrum is not going to be pleased with the results. They conclude "Our analysis suggests that the editorials on the Central America ruins and the Book of Mormon, published during Joseph Smith's tenure as editor of the Times and Seasons show a strong alignment with his personal writing style and the editorials to which he signed his name. Consequently, the evidence points to Joseph Smith as the author of the Central America editorials. Even if the Central America editorials were a collaborative work, that still does not reduce the authoritative nature of the statements in the articles since Joseph clearly stated that he took full responsibility for what was published in the paper under his editorship. So, whether he penned the words in their entirety or only partially or even not at all, he authorized the publication of the words and thereby made them his own, since he stated about the content of the paper 'I alone stand for it.' Claims that Joseph Smith was unaware of what was written in the Central America editorials, or what he considered their geographical opinions and interpretations to be inconsistent with his revelations, is not sustained by the historical and stylometric evidence."

[readstoomuch]

This would assume that JS knew exactly where the BOM happened. I have assume from reading about the editorial that they found it as general evidence, but no guarantee. JS.seemed to be the most concerned about the message of the book and that it was proof of his latter day work.

[livy111us]

I don't think it assumes that Joseph Smith knew BOM geography because that is the idea that they are trying to refute. Since Meldrum uses "Joseph knew" as a selling point to push his theory, this information shows that if he did not know and was making correlations as he found new information. He generally taught a North American setting for The Book of Mormon in his early years and generally a Mesoamerican theory in his later years.This in itself shows that there is no revelation on BOM geography as Meldrum teaches. If there was a revelation, then the Church is wrong today (because they have stated over and over that there has never been a revelation on BOM geography), and that Joseph Smith was not true to the revelation he received because he quickly changed his view on it's whereabouts.

So by showing that Joseph Smith wrote these articles which  place The Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica, it refutes the idea that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith the geography of the BOM. He looked at it as a spiritual record and spent most of his time teaching it's message than it's geography.

[teddyaware]

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/22/2/7RoperFieldsNepal_JS%20Times%20and%20Seasons%20and%20CA%20Ruins.pdf

 

 

Matt Roper and others have published their word print studies done on the Sept/Oct Times and Seasons articles that place The Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica and Meldrum is not going to be pleased with the results. They conclude "Our analysis suggests that the editorials on the Central America ruins and the Book of Mormon, published during Joseph Smith's tenure as editor of the Times and Seasons show a strong alignment with his personal writing style and the editorials to which he signed his name. Consequently, the evidence points to Joseph Smith as the author of the Central America editorials. Even if the Central America editorials were a collaborative work, that still does not reduce the authoritative nature of the statements in the articles since Joseph clearly stated that he took full responsibility for what was published in the paper under his editorship. So, whether he penned the words in their entirety or only partially or even not at all, he authorized the publication of the words and thereby made them his own, since he stated about the content of the paper 'I alone stand for it.' Claims that Joseph Smith was unaware of what was written in the Central America editorials, or what he considered their geographical opinions and interpretations to be inconsistent with his revelations, is not sustained by the historical and stylometric evidence."

 

Another fatal blow? How many fatal blows are required before an idea finally dies?

Edited April 8, 2014 by teddyaware

[Calm]

For a zombie idea like this one, you may chop it into little pieces but it will still unlive on.

[livy111us]

I intentionally added the word "another" to the title. The first Fair review of his work was the first fatal blow, followed by the several Matt Roper papers, Greg Smith's paper, the Church's statement on DNA, etc.... 

[teddyaware]

For a zombie idea like this one, you may chop it into little pieces but it will still unlive on.

Until the Lord Himself reveals where the Book of Mormon peoples lived, I will keep an open mind on this subject. I have studied both sides of this controversy, and as far as I can tell both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, but neither side has been able to prove they're the ones who've got it right. So while the advocates of the Mesoamerican and Heartland models continue to battle it out, I'll be bemusedly observing the absurd spectacle of it all as I float serenely among the billowy clouds, far above the madding crowed. I believe it's possible those on both sides of this controversy are going to end up in a state of utter humiliation with gooey egg all over their formerly self-assured faces. There is a great sense of freedom and calm that accompanies an open mind -- especially when there's very good reason to keep an open mind.

[livy111us]

I agree that it doesn't matter where The Book of Mormon took place, but I hate to see people being swindled. Not just in the field of religion but all aspects of life. Meldrum is presenting "evidence" that is not there all the while poisoning the well of actual scholarship. The "strengths" of the heartland model is the problem. They aren't based on actual facts but are founded on false theories, fraudulent artifacts and cherry picking the information.

[cdowis]

teddyaware,

 

Perhaps you are waiting for Meldrum to provide us a tome of the stature of Sorenson's "Mormon's Codex", Brant Gardner, etc. 

 

Obviously you have alot of patience.

[The Nehor]

Another fatal blow? How many fatal blows are required before an idea finally dies?

 

When the profit from selling books, videos, and tours dries up.

[Anijen]

Another fatal blow? How many fatal blows are required before an idea finally dies?

Until it stops paying$

 

Edited to add I posted this before I saw The Nehor's post.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Anijen

[strappinglad]

Until it stops paying$

 

Edited to add I posted this before I saw The Nehor's post.

" From the mouths of two or three witnesses ... "

[livy111us]

Last month in a podcast he spoke about selling 25,000 copies of his picture book. Those sell for $40 each. So let's do the math. 40 X 25,000 = $1,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is the gross profit from ONE book! He still has the profits from his other books, DVD's and BOM tours on top of this. He's making a killing! No wonder he sends hate mail to anyone who disagrees with him.

Edited April 9, 2014 by livy111us

[Gray]

Last month in a podcast he spoke about selling 25,000 copies of his picture book. Those sell for $40 each. So let's do the math. 40 X 25,000 = $1,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is the gross profit from ONE book! He still has the profits from his other books, DVD's and BOM tours on top of this. He's making a killing! No wonder he sends hate mail to anyone who disagrees with him.

 

I'm sure his net is much lower than that. It doesn't seem charitable to excoriate someone for selling books. LGT proponents also sell books, as do general authorities, for that matter. Selling books does not mean that someone is insincere 

[Bob Crockett]

At least Meldrum's theories are more faithful to the Church's position than the MesoAmerican theory.  You all read way too much into enthusiastic statements about the Central American ruins.  Need to contrast that with direct statements to the contrary by Joseph Smith and the FP.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Coreyb]

I have a revolutionary idea. Maybe there were lamanites in both places. Let's move on

[Bob Crockett]

I have a revolutionary idea. Maybe there were lamanites in both places. Let's move on

That is the hemispheric model. 

 

Elders Sjodahl and Reynolds devotes an entire chapter in Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 4, pages 330 et al. asserting that Tierra del Fuego Indians were Semitic.  The work asserts that the Indians, from the Arctic to the tip of South America, are descendants of the Lamanites.  Thomas S. Monson was the publisher and an editor of this work.  I note that Elders Sjodahl and Reynold's Commentary on the D&C was published under the direction of the First Presidency; this work, it does not appear to be the same.

 

They quote from Elder G.Q. Cannon, page x:  

There is a tendency, strongly manifested at the present time among some of the brethren, to study the geography of the Book of Mormon. We have heard of numerous lectures, illustrated by suggestive maps, being delivered on this subject during the present winter, generally under the auspices of the Improvement Societies and Sunday Schools.  . . . The First Presidency have often been asked to prepare some suggestive map illustrative of Nephite geography, but have never consented to do so.   . . . 

 

For these reasons we have strong objections to the introduction of maps and their circulation among our people which profess to give the location of the Nephite cities and settlements. As we have said, they have a tendency to mislead, instead of enlighten, and they give rise to discussions which will lead to division of sentiment and be very unprofitable.  . . .

 

One cannot get a testimony of the Book of Mormon by studying its geography!

 

Yet, despite a statement from the FP not to prepare maps to confuse, that is what we get from both the Heartland model and the MesoAmerica model.  

 

We can't move on so long as books contrary to the statements of the FP come out to confuse the Saints.  In my opinion, at least.  I get a lot of heat and personal attacks around here for advancing this opinion. I admit that I'm in the minority on this board.  

Edited April 9, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[ERayR]

At least Meldrum's theories are more faithful to the Church's position than the MesoAmerican theory.  You all read way too much into enthusiastic statements about the Central American ruins.  Need to contrast that with direct statements to the contrary by Joseph Smith and the FP.

 

Did you not read the OP.

 

I, for one, find it insulting for Meldrum to challenge my faithfulness because I don't accept his geographic model.

Edited April 9, 2014 by ERayR

[Bob Crockett]

Did you not read the OP.

I sure did.  It is a quote of inpenetrable language.    My post was more of reaction to the evolving thread.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Scott Lloyd]

At least Meldrum's theories are more faithful to the Church's position than the MesoAmerican theory.  You all read way too much into enthusiastic statements about the Central American ruins.  Need to contrast that with direct statements to the contrary by Joseph Smith and the FP.

Shouldn't the fact that there have been conflicting statements tell you that nobody really knows, least of all heartlanders who claim certitude?

[Scott Lloyd]

For a zombie idea like this one, you may chop it into little pieces but it will still unlive on.

What's the line in the movie "Night of the Living Dead"?

 

"You kill the brain and you kill the ghoul."

[Bob Crockett]

Shouldn't the fact that there have been conflicting statements tell you that nobody really knows, least of all heartlanders who claim certitude?

Well, you're right.  

 

But, what gets me in the cross-hairs here is that I argue that Dr. Sorenson is just as much out of alignment with Church directives as is Rod Meldrum.  So, my interest in these threads is not to prop Meldrum up but to question why there is such a fascination with Dr. Sorenson's work.  Being a better writer and researcher still doesn't get over the hump. 

 

Years ago, in my local LDS study group, we had been studying Dr. Sorenson's book.   One day, after reading it the second time, it just came to me:   This is fiction.  

Edited April 9, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, you're right.  

 

But, what gets me in the cross-hairs here is that I argue that Dr. Sorenson is just as much out of alignment with Church directives as is Rod Meldrum.  So, my interest in these threads is not to prop Meldrum up but to question why there is such a fascination with Dr. Sorenson's work.  Being a better writer and researcher still doesn't get over the hump. 

 

Years ago, in my local LDS study group, we had been studying Dr. Sorenson's book.   One day, after reading it the second time, it just came to me:   This is fiction.  

The big difference is that Meldrum and followers have implicitly and openly questioned the faithfulness of people for holding views on the Book of Mormon with which they disagree. Sorenson and company, to my knowledge, have never done that.

[Bob Crockett]

The big difference is that Meldrum and followers have implicitly and openly questioned the faithfulness of people for holding views on the Book of Mormon with which they disagree. Sorenson and company, to my knowledge, have never done that.

That is an extremely slender reed upon which to judge somebody's work or opinion.  (The reason being, such a challenge is not based on the merits.)   Challenges to faithfulness are done all the time on this board and I don't think that the people doing so are apostate.

 

I fault Dr. Sorenson for pursuing a frivolous topic and confusing members of the Church, exactly in the manner as several of the Brethren have counseled against.  

 

I can't fault Meldrum one way or the other as I've scanned his materials, as I don't think they are worth studying. But I have deeply studied Dr. Sorenson (but, have forgotten much). 

[livy111us]

I'm sure his net is much lower than that. It doesn't seem charitable to excoriate someone for selling books. LGT proponents also sell books, as do general authorities, for that matter. Selling books does not mean that someone is insincere 

If were to give a liberal estimate and say that $250,000 went into publication, that is still 3/4 of a million dollars from one book. I am not saying that selling books is insincere, but when your livelihood depends on book sales, you will be a little less inclined to accept information that contradicts your theory, which is exactly what has/is happening with Meldrum.