Gray Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 If were to give a liberal estimate and say that $250,000 went into publication, that is still 3/4 of a million dollars from one book. I am not saying that selling books is insincere, but when your livelihood depends on book sales, you will be a little less inclined to accept information that contradicts your theory, which is exactly what has/is happening with Meldrum. I suppose you could make the same argument for anyone in a paid leadership position in the church, but you'd need some mind reading if you're really trying to ferret out someone's deeper motivations. I know I don't posses that ability. I will say that we're all motivated by our own brains to defend our own beliefs to the death and not consider contradictory information. That's just how we're wired, and it takes discipline to overcome it. Your figures seem a little generous. I don't think authors ever see 75% of gross sales on a book
Bob Crockett Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 If were to give a liberal estimate and say that $250,000 went into publication, that is still 3/4 of a million dollars from one book. I am not saying that selling books is insincere, but when your livelihood depends on book sales, you will be a little less inclined to accept information that contradicts your theory, which is exactly what has/is happening with Meldrum.This challenge is not on the merits, either. And, since it could be equally as false, this challenge is not worth much. 1
livy111us Posted April 9, 2014 Author Posted April 9, 2014 I suppose you could make the same argument for anyone in a paid leadership position in the church, but you'd need some mind reading if you're really trying to ferret out someone's deeper motivations. I know I don't posses that ability. I will say that we're all motivated by our own brains to defend our own beliefs to the death and not consider contradictory information. That's just how we're wired, and it takes discipline to overcome it. Your figures seem a little generous. I don't think authors ever see 75% of gross sales on a bookYet the leadership of the Church are not working with theories in which there is no revealed doctrine as Meldrum is. He is trying to make an argument using several fields of science. This makes it easy to test his hypothesis with the latest scholarship and research, of which he fails miserably. 1
Gray Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 Yet the leadership of the Church are not working with theories in which there is no revealed doctrine as Meldrum is. He is trying to make an argument using several fields of science. This makes it easy to test his hypothesis with the latest scholarship and research, of which he fails miserably. I agree that his scholarship isn't up to much, but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe it.
Gray Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 I don't understand your last post. I mean the fact that his scholarship is poor does not mean he doesn't sincerely believe in it. There are a lot of people who sincerely believe in, for example, creation science.
Tacenda Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 So members just want something, that's probably why they've bought Meldrum's story.
cdowis Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Yet the leadership of the Church are not working with theories in which there is no revealed doctrine as Meldrum is. He is trying to make an argument using several fields of science. This makes it easy to test his hypothesis with the latest scholarship and research, of which he fails miserably. His ultimate argument is that BOM geography is doctrine, and revelation proves that it was in the Hearland. If you do not accept that, you are "weak in the faith". Edited April 9, 2014 by cdowis 1
livy111us Posted April 9, 2014 Author Posted April 9, 2014 Thanks for clarifying. I don't doubt that he believes it, but as you say, there are people who believe in lots of things that are not based on facts/evidence. In many cases they arrive at the conclusion and the look for the evidence to fit. There are several portions of Meldrum's theory that are completely disproven yet he completely ignores that information and continues teaching that information as if nothing happened. The topic of this thread being one such piece of information. He claims that 1- there has been a revelation on BOM geography and 2- Joseph Smith received this revelation "knew" it's whereabouts, and only taught the heartland theory.Yet the Church has said countless times that there has never been a revelation on BOM geography and we don't know where it happened and also have documents from Joseph Smith stating The Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica (he also stated it took place in several other places outside of the are of the heartland theory). Despite this being brought to Meldrum's attention years ago, he still continues to teach claims 1 and 2 without batting an eye. There is no nice way to put this, but he is lying. It is one thing to disagree and have some evidence to back up your claim, but to have been proven wrong and still continue to teach it is not honest. There are several more examples of similar problems with his theory as well. So yes, he believes it, but it's hard to argue that there is no Santa Claus if they make a living off of believing that there is.
Calm Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 So members just want something, that's probably why they've bought Meldrum's story.If so, then they might equally buy into other versions. Plus there is the unusual Meldrumite who assumes at times even a level of viciousness against those who disagree. Haven't seen that with other theories as much.There is a strand of elitest patriotism in Meldrum's theory that is very troubling to me. It appeals, it seems to me, to some of the baser desires of individuals. I am certain not all his followers are this way, but I seen enough that it red flags his whole effort for me. 1
Anijen Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 I mean the fact that his scholarship is poor does not mean he doesn't sincerely believe in it. There are a lot of people who sincerely believe in, for example, creation science. I am not even convinced he [Meldrum or May] believes it. I have been to their presentations they spend a lot of time tearing down any and all Mesoamerican theories and just as much time hawking of their products. Now I am not against making a profit from tours, DVDs, books, etc, I just do not like the manner in which it is presented as fact, artifacts are presented as genuine, opposing scholarship is dismissed out of hand, as if Joseph Smith himself has approved all of their findings . 1
readstoomuch Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 I have read quite a bit by Sorenson and Brant Gardner. They are not easy reads, but items such as diffusionist theories, general trends of the people vs BOM, plants/crops that might be similar to BOM are all interesting to me. Since I find the Book of Mormon as a Modern Expansion of an Ancient Text line of thinking the one that speaks the most to me, then I don`t mind some general parallels from archeology that go along with the BOM. I am working my way through world history again right now. There does seem to be this recurring notion that people got around the world at a much earlier date than the 1500`s. People traveled and moved around, but it was not as easy to record the maps and leave a record. Since Joseph didn`t necessarily have to have the plates in the room with him, were they an old record/artifact that stimulated his thinking-much like the Egyptian papyrus did?
Tacenda Posted April 9, 2014 Posted April 9, 2014 Are there other groups that put out books or seminars that are in line with John Sorenson's theories also? It seems to me, there are tours all the time. Why hasn't this been scrutinized on here? Is it more believable than Meldrum's theories? Or is John more trustworthy? You don't need to answer the last question.
readstoomuch Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 As I read, mesoamerica has more promise. Heartland is weaker to me. I would go on a tour to learn about history and trends in people/culture. John is academic and writes with that format. He is also a nice guy to talk to. 1
Anijen Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Are there other groups that put out books or seminars that are in line with John Sorenson's theories also? It seems to me, there are tours all the time. Why hasn't this been scrutinized on here? Is it more believable than Meldrum's theories? Or is John more trustworthy? You don't need to answer the last question. Tacenda, Dr. Sorenson is more believable because he is a very qualified expert of Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon. He was/is a professional archaeologist not just someone who played in a sandbox at 3 years old and now thinks he is an expert, coughMaycough. He has devoted much of his professional life to that expertise. Others like Brant Gardner and Dr. Mark Wright and many others are also experts in that area [Mesoamerica] and have the qualifications to back up their theories. Wayne May and Rodney Meldrum do not, and have actually abused the findings of experts of the Hopewell to a point were those archaeologist threatened to sue them. Edited April 10, 2014 by Anijen 1
Calm Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Are there other groups that put out books or seminars that are in line with John Sorenson's theories also? It seems to me, there are tours all the time. Why hasn't this been scrutinized on here? Is it more believable than Meldrum's theories? Or is John more trustworthy? You don't need to answer the last question.Because they don't call into question the faithfulness of others.I highly doubt given the time involved in Dr. Sorenson's work and the books he has produced, he is getting much of a profit from royalties. In fact, wouldn't be surprised if he, like others I know, ended up having to subsidised his own work (not the publishing costs, but the effort and time and resources that were needed for research and writing.And given that he has demonstrated the willingness to go the extra mile by actually being educated and devoting his life to actually working in this area and discuss it with others in his field, yea, I think that demonstrates he is likely more trustworthy. Edited April 10, 2014 by calmoriah 2
livy111us Posted April 10, 2014 Author Posted April 10, 2014 He donated all the profits from An Ancient American Setting for The Book of Mormon to FARMS 1
Tacenda Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 He donated all the profits from An Ancient American Setting for The Book of Mormon to FARMSWow!!!
livy111us Posted April 10, 2014 Author Posted April 10, 2014 Compare that to grossing 1 million dollars. That can sure change your motive when presenting your theory, can't it?
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