Are Our Values Under Attack?

[mormonnewb]

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. It is going in that direction anyway, at least in the west. Live and let live especially when church members begin to support the eat, drink and be merry mantra too. So, it is a losing battle. So, the very idea that one can fight against it is true. But one will lose the fight. But at least one can try to do what is right regardless. But the battle is lost. I remember the 70s very well. Living in NYC was like living in one big orgy. Studio 54 was in full swing and other swing joints were springing up all over the place. Not to mention live sex shows. Gay bath houses were very much alive in the Greenwich Village area. I remember the NYC life very well and what was happening in the city. Not a bad place to be a college student. Prostitutes walking the streets...high class call girls too. It was the age of sexual liberation.

 

But for a young church member chasity was a elephant in the room. So many beautiful people messing around and yet...one needed to say no. Have things changed? Yes. Aids put a damper on the sexual revolution for awhile. Fear ruled. But the sex industry took advantage of the fear. Porn went from the theaters to VHS to DVD to the internet. It entered the home in a very strong way. And television became much more sexual to help keep the fantasy alive in people's minds. And now a ten year old can watch adults have sex on the internet. And many are watching. But that is okay. Why fight it? Just submit to the will of the people. freedom of speech and freedom to watch what we desire to watch.

 

So, yes, gays should marry. Two men should have the right to adopt...two women too. Why not? Brothers and sisters should also have a right to marry. Why not? Freedom and equality. No one gets hurt. And mormons and other traditional value christians can just eat it and relax. And pretend that no one is attacking their traditional values.

Do you eat pork? If so, how dare you ATTACK the values of Muslims and Jews? Should they just submit to the will of the people? YES!

Part of living in a free society is that other people are FREE to do things that you find immoral. What is so difficult to grasp about this concept? Just because we're in the majority (on this issue) shouldn't change the underlying principle.

[pogi]

We can draw the line at harm to another. Murder is not only morally wrong but it has a DIRECT impact on another's persons ability to live their life. The marriage of Adam and Steve does not do so.

 

If that is the line, then by these standards we should be in favor of legalizing prostitution and against the legalization of alcohol and cigarettes.  Am I wrong?

[mormonnewb]

If that is the line, then by these standards we should be in favor of legalizing prostitution and against the legalization of alcohol and cigarettes.  Am I wrong?

We're half way there! To my knowledge, we aren't pushing a Prop 9 to ban cigarettes and alcohol. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, there isn't even a prohibition for Mormons to SELL these things. We just can't consume them ourselves.

[Stone holm]

If that is the line, then by these standards we should be in favor of legalizing prostitution and against the legalization of alcohol and cigarettes.  Am I wrong?

Not necessarily, although legalized prostitution where the pimps are under control, and the sex workers are regularly examined would make more sense than unregulated brothels.

[why me]

We can draw the line at harm to another. Murder is not only morally wrong but it has a DIRECT impact on another's persons ability to live their life. The marriage of Adam and Steve does not do so.

 

And such is spiritual relativism. We are free to do what we want as long as we do not harm one another. Yes, no problem. No reason to challenge the value norms of our time. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. In fact, why not join the parade and engage in it too? No harm done at all to the inner spirit, right? So, if i want to have an orgy...why not? No harm done. If I want to act in a porn film...why not. No one is getting harmed. No murders at least.

 

But you see, it just may be harmful to my human spirit. It just may be harmful to who I am. And likewise for those who engage in it. So, I agree with you. All churches should now allow gay marriage. Why not? And we should preach no sin because there is no sin. So, we can now abandon chasity and let people decide themselves what is right and wrong and we can let god be the judge. Why have the ten commandments at all. We can have just two: thou shall steal and thou shall not murder. But somehow I have this feeling that god is a god of law...setting us boundaries to follow.

 

Also, why is bill cosby attempting to change the behavior of certain members of the black community. Why does he wish to impose his values on a community? Maybe he should just go home and relax. Or Malcolm X during his last years. Why did he bother to preach to the black community about a diferent way of life and value commitment? He also should have been quiet and relaxed. At least according to your logic. Or martin luther king. He wasn't just about civil rights. He also preached to the community, preaching about christian values...why? He also would have been better off just being quiet. Why should he have tried to influence people to live a different way?  You logic is a little flawed.

Edited April 10, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Do you eat pork? If so, how dare you ATTACK the values of Muslims and Jews? Should they just submit to the will of the people? YES!

Part of living in a free society is that other people are FREE to do things that you find immoral. What is so difficult to grasp about this concept? Just because we're in the majority (on this issue) shouldn't change the underlying principle.

 

Because societies cannot survive moral anarchy. I think that we have examples of this in the bible and in the book of mormon. What was god's judgment on the unrighteous society? And how many of the religious succumbed to the temptations that added to god's judgment? Mulims and jews don't eat pork...catholics do not eat meat on fridays...and mormons do not drink alcohol. Fine. But this has nothing to do with the cultural norms of a western society that affects us all. However, I don't think that I will get a pork sandwich in saudi arabia. And it may be difficult to find one in Isreal too. The influence of porn is across all of society. The breakdown of religious values is a reflection of us all and influences us all to some degree. People submit to the notiion which you have: as long as it doesn't harm anyone, why not? Everything cool and groovy.

Edited April 10, 2014 by why me

[california boy]

And such is spiritual relativism. We are free to do what we want as long as we do not harm one another. Yes, no problem. No reason to challenge the value norms of our time. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. In fact, why not join the parade and engage in it too? No harm done at all to the inner spirit, right? So, if i want to have an orgy...why not? No harm done. If I want to act in a porn film...why not. No one is getting harmed. No murders at least.

 

But you see, it just may be harmful to my human spirit. It just may be harmful to who I am. And likewise for those who engage in it. So, I agree with you. All churches should now allow gay marriage. Why not? And we should preach no sin because there is no sin. So, we can now abandon chasity and let people decide themselves what is right and wrong and we can let god be the judge. Why have the ten commandments at all. We can have just two: thou shall steal and thou shall not murder. But somehow I have this feeling that god is a god of law...setting us boundaries to follow.

 

Also, why is bill cosby attempting to change the behavior of certain members of the black community. Why does he wish to impose his values on a community? Maybe he should just go home and relax. Or Malcolm X during his last years. Why did he bother to preach to the black community about a diferent way of life and value commitment? He also should have been quiet and relaxed. At least according to your logic. Or martin luther king. He wasn't just about civil rights. He also preached to the community, preaching about christian values...why? He also would have been better off just being quiet. Why should he have tried to influence people to live a different way?  You logic is a little flawed.

I don't know if you think your sarcasm is helping people understand what you are trying to say, but it just comes off as not really having a valid point.

 

No one is saying churches, leaders, Bill Cosby etc should be prevented from preaching, teaching, evoking good morals and promoting a dream of a better America.  You fall back on these kinds of arguments in order to avoid the truth that we live in a free country.  We don't control every thing citizens do by law.  People are free to govern themselves as long as what they do does not infringe on others rights and safety.  This is not a difficult concept to understand.  It is at the very heart of our constitution.  It does not preclude you from doing all you can to convince others to live the life you have chosen to live.  That is why missionaries and you are free to go from door to door if you wish proclaiming your enlightened message.  But you can't codify everything you believe into law because you think it is the right PERSONAL decisions.

 

Maybe Joseph Smith could offer you a bit of wisdom you might want to embrace.  "I teach them correct principles, they govern themselves."  He didn't feel the need to force people by law to follow his vision.  They embraced it because it was a better way of life for them.

[why me]

I don't know if you think your sarcasm is helping people understand what you are trying to say, but it just comes off as not really having a valid point.

 

I was responding to this comment by mormonnewb.:

 

We can draw the line at harm to another. Murder is not only morally wrong but it has a DIRECT impact on another's persons ability to live their life.

 

I don't think that this is valid at all.Nor do I see this philosophy in the bible nor in the book of mormon. I see no where where christians are told to let it be. I was responding to this attitude. The poster was referring to how we shouldn't impose our values on other people, something that Bill Cosby does attempt to do, along with many other spokespeople. Human beings should never let it just be. As you know, you are very active in what you believe in and the other side should also be active in presenting the other perspective.

Edited April 10, 2014 by why me

[mormonnewb]

I was responding to this comment by mormonnewb.:

 

We can draw the line at harm to another. Murder is not only morally wrong but it has a DIRECT impact on another's persons ability to live their life.

 

I don't think that this is valid at all.Nor do I see this philosophy in the bible nor in the book of mormon. I see no where where christians are told to let it be. I was responding to this attitude. The poster was referring to how we shouldn't impose our values on other people, something that Bill Cosby does attempt to do, along with many other spokespeople. Human beings should never let is just be. As you know, you are very active in what you believe in and the other side should also be active in presenting the other perspective.

 

As Mormons, we should be take every opportunity to share our beliefs in what is the "right" way to live.  However, when we get to the point of saying, "You can't do so and so because MY God told me that you can't," we've gone too far.  And this isn't an anarchist position.  It is the foundation on which our country is built.  And with regards to SSM, it is precisely the reason that NO court has upheld a gay marriage ban in the last 2-3 years.  The argument that "MY God said so" just isn't constitutionally sound.  And unless the opponents of SSM can come up with a harm-based reason (i.e., children of gay parents will have their left arms suddenly fall off at age 12), then the courts CAN NOT uphold SSM bans.  There is simply NOTHING in our constitution that allows one group to privilege what it God commands over the dictates of another person's conscience.

 

And by the way, Bill Cosby is a wonderful example of why we Mormons are so impotent on this issue.  In addition to just being laughably simplistic about the social dynamics involved, Cosby has little credibility to speak on black issues.  Why?  Because until 10 years ago, he didn't show any interest in the community.  When Brothers Martin and Malcolm were facing down angry mobs, club-wielding police officers and enduring intense FBI surveillance, Mr. Cosby was playing "shooty-shooty-bang-bang" in the Hollywood Hills with Robert Culp and the gang from I Spy.  When calls came in for him to join the struggle, he was too busy.  "Civil rights isn't my thing."  And if you don't believe me, search the source of all truth -- Google.  I challenge you to find a SINGLE picture of Cosby with Dr. King (and don't even think about a picture of Cosby and Malcolm X together -- you probably can't get Cosby to take a picture with Malcolm Jamaal Warner -- Theo Huxtable -- now that he has dreadlocks).  So when 40 years later, Cosby comes down from the mountaintop to tell black folks (what white people want to hear), we're not so impressed.

 

How does this play into Mormonism?  Because no one is going to take our correction until they've felt our affection.  Congregation, can I get an amen?  As black people, we love Martin and Malcolm because they loved us.  They fought for us ... and died for us.  So when they corrected us (and you're right, they did), we accepted it.  But let's be clear.  We don't celebrate Dr. King's birthday every year because he spent all of his time telling DeAndre to "pull up his pants" and Shaniqua to "stop having all those baby daddies."  He's a hero because he had the courage to stand up to the rich and powerful.  He didn't just confront problems within the black community but he took on white segregationists, business leaders, politicians (from both parties) and even, the military-industrial complex.

 

From my narrow viewpoint, we seem much more like Cosby than King.  When is the last time we've been opposed to a U.S. war?  Dr. King called America "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today."  I can't fathom one of our leaders even politely questioning U.S. military intervention.  When was the last time that our leaders called out anyone for pernicious greed -- sub-prime lenders, polluters, politicians?  Yet, we're quick to point out the promiscuity and perversion of the gay lifestyle (on this board, these terms are used CONSTANTLY in regards to our brothers and sisters).  And just like Cosby, we mutter to ourselves, "Why doesn't anyone listen to us?"

 

Because, like Cosby, we seem to be hypocrites and NO ONE heeds the counsel of a hypocrite (especially one who decries ebonics but made a fortune speaking it to our children through his characters on Fat Albert).

Edited April 10, 2014 by mormonnewb

[why me]

As Mormons, we should be take every opportunity to share our beliefs in what is the "right" way to live.  However, when we get to the point of saying, "You can't do so and so because MY God told me that you can't," we've gone too far.  And this isn't an anarchist position.  It is the foundation on which our country is built.  A

Because, like Cosby, we seem to be hypocrites and NO ONE heeds the counsel of a hypocrite (especially one who decries ebonics but made a fortune speaking it to our children through his characters on Fat Albert).

Actually it was never the way you say it was. Most societies were not built on the idea that everyone has the right to do what one wants unless it does harm to someone. We were a country of moral laws too. However, with postmodern relativism is has become a 'free to do what wants to do' but just don't harm anyone else society but tthis is a rather new idea. In the past, we had a clear definition of family and what constitutes a family. There were boundaries to that definition. Likewise for many other moral understandings. There were clear morals in place. It wasn't a free for all. 

 

Likewise, I don't think that Christ ever said, do what you wish and you will have my respect. I think that he was clear to establish moral laws. And paul carried on with the law. As people who claim to have the truth, we have the right to explain that truth and to influence the direction of society based on that truth. Lets look at it this way. The gay rights activists were very successful in bringing their concept of the gay lifestyle to hollywood sitcoms and through public agitation. And as the firefox chairperson discovered, one could lose one's job for opposing ssm. Such is freedom and our freedom to oppose the gay rights activists. No choice but to agree unless one wishes to be fired, have their goods boycotted, etc.

Edited April 10, 2014 by why me

[why me]

 

Because, like Cosby, we seem to be hypocrites and NO ONE heeds the counsel of a hypocrite (especially one who decries ebonics but made a fortune speaking it to our children through his characters on Fat Albert).

Okay...bill cosby is a hypocrite. And mormons are hypocrities too. Great. And Macolm X and MLK...all preaching to people about how to do life...hypocrites. But gay rights activists are not hypocrites. Just social activists attempting to influence society to accept their own direction of beliefs. Okay. Values change through ideology, influence and social activism. But mormons and cosby should just relax and let it be.

 

And OW too. Social activists who are attempting to change the church mind on female ordination through social action protests. But that is okay too. But mormons should not react...just let it be because we have no right in having our values presented or in preaching our values and in attempting to get our values practiced more in our society.

Edited April 10, 2014 by why me

[Kenngo1969]

Anyone who espouses a particular way to live, and who claims that such a way is better than another way to live (or is the best way to live) but fails to live up to that standard in one way or another at one time or another, is a hypocrite.  Hypocrisy is human.  We're all hypocrites. Our only hope is the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance.

[Tacenda]

As Mormons, we should be take every opportunity to share our beliefs in what is the "right" way to live. However, when we get to the point of saying, "You can't do so and so because MY God told me that you can't," we've gone too far. And this isn't an anarchist position. It is the foundation on which our country is built. And with regards to SSM, it is precisely the reason that NO court has upheld a gay marriage ban in the last 2-3 years. The argument that "MY God said so" just isn't constitutionally sound. And unless the opponents of SSM can come up with a harm-based reason (i.e., children of gay parents will have their left arms suddenly fall off at age 12), then the courts CAN NOT uphold SSM bans. There is simply NOTHING in our constitution that allows one group to privilege what it God commands over the dictates of another person's conscience.

And by the way, Bill Cosby is a wonderful example of why we Mormons are so impotent on this issue. In addition to just being laughably simplistic about the social dynamics involved, Cosby has little credibility to speak on black issues. Why? Because until 10 years ago, he didn't show any interest in the community. When Brothers Martin and Malcolm were facing down angry mobs, club-wielding police officers and enduring intense FBI surveillance, Mr. Cosby was playing "shooty-shooty-bang-bang" in the Hollywood Hills with Robert Culp and the gang from I Spy. When calls came in for him to join the struggle, he was too busy. "Civil rights isn't my thing." And if you don't believe me, search the source of all truth -- Google. I challenge you to find a SINGLE picture of Cosby with Dr. King (and don't even think about a picture of Cosby and Malcolm X together -- you probably can't get Cosby to take a picture with Malcolm Jamaal Warner -- Theo Huxtable -- now that he has dreadlocks). So when 40 years later, Cosby comes down from the mountaintop to tell black folks (what white people want to hear), we're not so impressed.

How does this play into Mormonism? Because no one is going to take our correction until they've felt our affection. Congregation, can I get an amen? As black people, we love Martin and Malcolm because they loved us. They fought for us ... and died for us. So when they corrected us (and you're right, they did), we accepted it. But let's be clear. We don't celebrate Dr. King's birthday every year because he spent all of his time telling DeAndre to "pull up his pants" and Shaniqua to "stop having all those baby daddies." He's a hero because he had the courage to stand up to the rich and powerful. He didn't just confront problems within the black community but he took on white segregationists, business leaders, politicians (from both parties) and even, the military-industrial complex.

From my narrow viewpoint, we seem much more like Cosby than King. When is the last time we've been opposed to a U.S. war? Dr. King called America "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." I can't fathom one of our leaders even politely questioning U.S. military intervention. When was the last time that our leaders called out anyone for pernicious greed -- sub-prime lenders, polluters, politicians? Yet, we're quick to point out the promiscuity and perversion of the gay lifestyle (on this board, these terms are used CONSTANTLY in regards to our brothers and sisters). And just like Cosby, we mutter to ourselves, "Why doesn't anyone listen to us?"

Because, like Cosby, we seem to be hypocrites and NO ONE heeds the counsel of a hypocrite (especially one who decries ebonics but made a fortune speaking it to our children through his characters on Fat Albert).

This...

[Walden]

When a set of values was once indeed the basis for a law that honors that founding morality and that law gets changed to remove those values out of the equation, then yes, those values are under attack, whether you agree with them or not.

 

Please, Christian values and Biblical precendence were at one time an argument for the institution of slavery. It was indeed part of our "founding morality", or God would have seen fit to direct the forefathers of this country to create a nation that did not allow such a cruel and vile institution.

 

Thank goodness our society has evolved past that "founding morality."

[CV75]

As Mormons, we should be take every opportunity to share our beliefs in what is the "right" way to live.  However, when we get to the point of saying, "You can't do so and so because MY God told me that you can't," we've gone too far. 

While I think this is a gross mischaracterization of what is what is being said, it really doesn't matter what one's reasons or motives are for supporting a political or legislative position. Politics is full of going "too far" and accusing others of going "too far." The same could be said of your posts. That is why we talk in the public square, to sort all that out.

 

Everyone extrapolates his politcical position from some kind of personal morality, whatever that may be. In the realm of politics, I think most of those that base their position on a religious point of view will be more likely to say,"God commanded that no one do this and/because it is bad for all if anyone does it", not  "MY God told me that you can't" do this.

[CV75]

Please, Christian values and Biblical precendence were at one time an argument for the institution of slavery. It was indeed part of our "founding morality", or God would have seen fit to direct the forefathers of this country to create a nation that did not allow such a cruel and vile institution.

 

Thank goodness our society has evolved past that "founding morality."

"Please" (that's what I almost wrote to your "can't legislate morality" chant. Whatever side you take, you have to admit the values are under attack. See #190.

[Walden]

"Please" (that's what I almost wrote to your "can't legislate morality" chant. Whatever side you take, you have to admit the values are under attack. See #190.

Yes, there is no denying that certain Christian values are under attack in our society today, but personally, I don't think that is a bad thing in a number of instances or with regard to a number of Christian beliefs/ideals.

[Senator]

Yes, there is no denying that certain Christian values are under attack in our society today, but personally, I don't think that is a bad thing in a number of instances or with regard to a number of Christian beliefs/ideals.

 

Ah! I love it when we finally come to terms in a discussion. It's rare

 

Bravo!

[CV75]

Yes, there is no denying that certain Christian values are under attack in our society today

So yes, the OP has his answer.

 

but personally, I don't think that is a bad thing in a number of instances or with regard to a number of Christian beliefs/ideals.

You have as much say about that in the public square as anyone... or do you have/want more than others?

[Gray]

"Please" (that's what I almost wrote to your "can't legislate morality" chant. Whatever side you take, you have to admit the values are under attack. See #190.

 

Everyone's values are criticized by some group. Secular/pluralistic values are criticized in conference all the time.

[california boy]

As Mormons, we should be take every opportunity to share our beliefs in what is the "right" way to live.  However, when we get to the point of saying, "You can't do so and so because MY God told me that you can't," we've gone too far.  And this isn't an anarchist position.  It is the foundation on which our country is built.  And with regards to SSM, it is precisely the reason that NO court has upheld a gay marriage ban in the last 2-3 years.  The argument that "MY God said so" just isn't constitutionally sound.  And unless the opponents of SSM can come up with a harm-based reason (i.e., children of gay parents will have their left arms suddenly fall off at age 12), then the courts CAN NOT uphold SSM bans.  There is simply NOTHING in our constitution that allows one group to privilege what it God commands over the dictates of another person's conscience.

 

And by the way, Bill Cosby is a wonderful example of why we Mormons are so impotent on this issue.  In addition to just being laughably simplistic about the social dynamics involved, Cosby has little credibility to speak on black issues.  Why?  Because until 10 years ago, he didn't show any interest in the community.  When Brothers Martin and Malcolm were facing down angry mobs, club-wielding police officers and enduring intense FBI surveillance, Mr. Cosby was playing "shooty-shooty-bang-bang" in the Hollywood Hills with Robert Culp and the gang from I Spy.  When calls came in for him to join the struggle, he was too busy.  "Civil rights isn't my thing."  And if you don't believe me, search the source of all truth -- Google.  I challenge you to find a SINGLE picture of Cosby with Dr. King (and don't even think about a picture of Cosby and Malcolm X together -- you probably can't get Cosby to take a picture with Malcolm Jamaal Warner -- Theo Huxtable -- now that he has dreadlocks).  So when 40 years later, Cosby comes down from the mountaintop to tell black folks (what white people want to hear), we're not so impressed.

 

How does this play into Mormonism?  Because no one is going to take our correction until they've felt our affection.  Congregation, can I get an amen?  As black people, we love Martin and Malcolm because they loved us.  They fought for us ... and died for us.  So when they corrected us (and you're right, they did), we accepted it.  But let's be clear.  We don't celebrate Dr. King's birthday every year because he spent all of his time telling DeAndre to "pull up his pants" and Shaniqua to "stop having all those baby daddies."  He's a hero because he had the courage to stand up to the rich and powerful.  He didn't just confront problems within the black community but he took on white segregationists, business leaders, politicians (from both parties) and even, the military-industrial complex.

 

From my narrow viewpoint, we seem much more like Cosby than King.  When is the last time we've been opposed to a U.S. war?  Dr. King called America "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today."  I can't fathom one of our leaders even politely questioning U.S. military intervention.  When was the last time that our leaders called out anyone for pernicious greed -- sub-prime lenders, polluters, politicians?  Yet, we're quick to point out the promiscuity and perversion of the gay lifestyle (on this board, these terms are used CONSTANTLY in regards to our brothers and sisters).  And just like Cosby, we mutter to ourselves, "Why doesn't anyone listen to us?"

 

Because, like Cosby, we seem to be hypocrites and NO ONE heeds the counsel of a hypocrite (especially one who decries ebonics but made a fortune speaking it to our children through his characters on Fat Albert).

Your post contains some very valid points, and deserved more than the sarcastic response it got.

[california boy]

"Please" (that's what I almost wrote to your "can't legislate morality" chant. Whatever side you take, you have to admit the values are under attack. See #190.

Slavery was certainly a "christian value" that deserved to be under attack.  And so is denying gay couples the right to marry when your only reason for preventing it is "Our God told us it is evil for gay couples to marry.  They should only allow to shack up together.

[CV75]

Everyone's values are criticized by some group. Secular/pluralistic values are criticized in conference all the time.

Deep. So the answer to the OP is "Yes".

[CV75]

Slavery was certainly a "christian value" that deserved to be under attack.  And so is denying gay couples the right to marry when your only reason for preventing it is "Our God told us it is evil for gay couples to marry.  They should only allow to shack up together.

There is only so much hysteria I am inclined to accommodate /  enable; I'll refer to you the subsequent posts to the one you're reacting to. But thank you acknowledging that the answer to the thread title is "Yes".

 

No aggressive political action was ever taken against gay "marriage" until aggressive politcal action was taken to codify it; the underlying values (moralities) likewise.

Edited April 10, 2014 by CV75

[Gray]

Deep. So the answer to the OP is "Yes".

 

Yes. And it's always the case no matter what your values are.