Well, Ow's Moment Has Been And Gone Again...

[cdowis]

I suggest the one that makes someone so uncomfortable that they awaken from their slumber and (even if begrudgingly) share the blessings of the priesthood with our sisters.

 

It appears that you were asleep when this was directly addressed by Oakes.

 

Amazingly, it seems that the issue many faithful members have with OW is that they have stirred up "trouble."  Well, that's what Christ did.  In fact, He stirred up so much trouble that the religious leaders saw Him as a threat that needed to be "neutralized."  So this idea that "good saints" are meek and reverent and never cause contention makes for a wonderful community, but I'm not sure it makes for wonderful CHRISTIANS.

 

OK, you are asserting that the leaders of OW are being lead by Christ, and the church is being lead by scribes and Pharasees.  It was this attitude of rebellion against the authorized leaders of the church that lead to the WONDERFUL apostasy of the church.

Edited April 6, 2014 by cdowis

[Calm]

]

 

Christians cause trouble (and not just for gays).  Christians topple social orders (e.g., slavery and segregation).  Perhaps, that's why Christ handpicked as His successors, people like the sword-wielding Peter and Judas the Zealot -- a freedom fighter.  Of course, He also picked John the Beloved, so there is a place for both types, so I think there's a place in the kingdom for OW as well.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God.

[why me]

I suggest the one that makes someone so uncomfortable that they awaken from their slumber and (even if begrudgingly) share the blessings of the priesthood with our sisters.

I am sure that at the time of paul when he was cautioning the church over and over again to be of one mind does not play a part in all this? I don't think that OW has stirred up trouble at all. But protesting the church actions or decisions is not the way to go when the rest of the brothers and sisters are attempting to worship in peace. There are better ways to do it. I don't see the majority of women in the church want the 'blessings' of the priesthood by being ordained. But it does seem that they want the blessings of the priesthood indirectly. And who can blame them? Having the priesthood is no easy matter. Too much responsibility and accountability.

 

In fact, I think that many mormon men would love the women to get the priesthood. I asked my branch president friend what he would do if women got the priesthood and he said:I would call one woman to be elder's quorum president and hope that one could be branch priesident. In other words, time to relax. I think that many men would love to take a back seat in church and put it all in the hands of women.

Edited April 6, 2014 by why me

[Storm Rider]

I suspect people will continue to hear what they want to hear and do what they want to do regardless of what leaders say. Some will demand that the prophet himself stand at GC, raise his arm to the square, the heavens will open and angels stand beside him, and with a loud voice declare that women will not preside i.e. hold the priesthood in this life.  Should this occur there will still be some that will say he is not really inspired; the Lord himself did not stand beside him, and it is needful that we press on demanding that the Lord answer our prayers.  

 

There will be others that simply follow truth and are capable of recognizing it when they see; their focus is solely on the Lord and being disciples.  

 

We get to choose every day who we will follow. 

[canard78]

Both of which are accurate. It was and is not the Church's intention to change doctrine. Even in asking for the OD2 revelation, they were waiting for God to reveal his Will about it.

It required revelation to change the previous ban and would require revelation to change the current one.

Hi Cal, do you know of any revelation to institute the ban on either black men or any woman having priesthood.

I can understand why it wouldn't be done without but was it also started without?

[Lost in Ohio]

 

I suggest the one that makes someone so uncomfortable that they awaken from their slumber and (even if begrudgingly) share the blessings of the priesthood with our sisters.

 

It appears that you were asleep when this was directly addressed by Oakes.

 

Amazingly, it seems that the issue many faithful members have with OW is that they have stirred up "trouble."  Well, that's what Christ did.  In fact, He stirred up so much trouble that the religious leaders saw Him as a threat that needed to be "neutralized."  So this idea that "good saints" are meek and reverent and never cause contention makes for a wonderful community, but I'm not sure it makes for wonderful CHRISTIANS.

 

OK, you are asserting that the leaders of OW are being lead by Christ, and the church is being lead by scribes and Pharasees.  It was this attitude of rebellion against the authorized leaders of the church that lead to the WONDERFUL apostasy of the church.

 

As a faithful member who has concerns with what OW is doing I can only speak for myself about why I disagree with their movement.

 

The first thing that bothers me about OW is that their approach is contrary to the revealed pattern of church government.  The Church as a whole is led by revelation to prophets and apostles from the top down, with Jesus Christ at the top.  I find it difficult to believe that the Lord desires that a group of members self appoint for themselves the right to agitate from the bottom up for changes in doctrine.  It seems instinctively contrary to the revealed order of church government and the pattern for revelation.  Such a pattern would make the church subject to the ever changing winds of the latest fads in society and seems reminiscent of the fracturing into factions of the early church that led to the apostasy.  

 

Another thing that troubles me is their approach.  The presumption to speak on behalf of those who haven't asked them to. The charged and overstated language which seems calculated to create a picture of inequality and oppression which seems at odds with my experience.  The use of media in an effort to pressure leadership.  Their apparant unwillingness to listen to what the Lord's apostles have to say and respect the Church's request regarding their protest indicates to me that while they want to have a "discussion' they only want a one-way discussion.  

 

Finally, while it may be true that Christ and his appointed servants have 'stirred up trouble' they did so with one crucial difference.  The trouble was a consequence of the message of the gospel it wasn't sought for as a way to spread the gospel message.  Christ taught under the direction of the Father and his appointed servants do so under the direction of the Lord with his authority and for his divine purposes.  The trouble they 'stirred up' was trouble with and from the world, not trouble within the church.  Causing divisiveness within the church, misrepresentation of the role of women in the church to the world, and acting without authority to do so - in other words creating trouble within the church - can hardly be equated with the trouble encountered by faithful church members from the world when they faithfully live the gospel.  OW seems to me to be 'stirring up trouble' within the church and for church leadership with the world in order to get their way.  Just the opposite of the trouble experienced by those sincerely trying to follow the Savior.  

[jwhitlock]

I hope so.  In light of Christ's discussion of prayer in Luke 11, aren't they supposed to keep going?

 

 

⁵ And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;

⁶ For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?

⁷ And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.

⁸ I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.

⁹ And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

¹⁰ For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

I read this to mean keep on knocking.  The Brethren may answer, "Trouble me not: the session is closed and Elder Oaks has spoken on the matter.  The thinking is done."  Yet, I say unto OW, "Though they will not let you in because of any great love or compassion, yet because of your importunity (and the PR nightmare), they will let as many of you in as you request."

 

Keep knocking, sisters! 

 

There's lies, damned lies, and statistics.

 

And now we have scriptural rationalizations to add to that list.

[cdowis]

Satan quotes scripture.  That is why the Lord gave us living prophets.

[jwhitlock]

Satan quotes scripture.  That is why the Lord gave us living prophets.

 

Absolutely. Satan's twists on scripture to try to tempt Christ are instructive.

[canard78]

Satan quotes scripture. That is why the Lord gave us living prophets.

Mormonnewb quotes scripture to support his position and your classy response is... Ah, draw a comparison to Satan. Par for the course cdowis, par for the course.

[jwhitlock]

Mormonnewb quotes scripture to support his position and your classy response is... Ah, draw a comparison to Satan. Par for the course cdowis, par for the course.

 

Anyone can quote scripture as "support". Whether that support is valid or not is a totally different question.

 

His wasn't.

 

His mocking attitude towards the leaders of the church in the same post should be an indication of where he's coming from.

[Teancum]

Elder Oaks put to bed any remote possibility that women will be ordained.

 

 

Like Bruce McConkie did for the black persons.

[Teancum]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57778960-78/women-square-church-temple.html.csp

 

Well, the OW march has been and gone for another conference.  200ish women showed up.  They were turned away just like last time.  No press or reporters (but a few pics tweeted).  No real impact on Conference and no goals achieved.

According to the article describing their attempt only 8% of Mormon women even think they should be given the priesthood.

 

Why do we give so much attention to this group?  Why am I even linking this article?  What is the fascination?

...and yet we continue to watch.  Maybe that is the goal after all.

 

I believe there are a lot more woman that are interested in holding the priesthood.  Our culture does not foster open and upfront expressions that go against the trend.

[bluebell]

I believe there are a lot more woman that are interested in holding the priesthood.  Our culture does not foster open and upfront expressions that go against the trend.

 

I doubt it.

 

Our culture may not foster expressions that go against the trend, but the Internet does.  People risk nothing when they sign up online to support something and women would risk nothing to support OW in the online sphere.  

 

Also, the pew survey which reported that 90% of women did not want the priesthood was not conducted by the church, and was anonymous.  

 

I give women more credit than to be that wimpy that they are afraid to even voice their opinion even when no one else will know they are saying it. 

[Garden Girl]

I believe there are a lot more woman that are interested in holding the priesthood.  Our culture does not foster open and upfront expressions that go against the trend.

 

I'm with Bluebell...

 

GG

[Teancum]

I doubt it.

 

Our culture may not foster expressions that go against the trend, but the Internet does.  People risk nothing when they sign up online to support something and women would risk nothing to support OW in the online sphere.  

 

Also, the pew survey which reported that 90% of women did not want the priesthood was not conducted by the church, and was anonymous.  

 

I give women more credit than to be that wimpy that they are afraid to even voice their opinion even when no one else will know they are saying it. 

 

 

Did they ask active or not active.  Of course I am simply speculating but I know a number of women in the Church who would like to have the priesthood but would never be part of OW or agitate for it.

[awyatt]

I know this is a bit late (and I appreciate smac's report last night), but I attended the OW event and wanted to jot down my observations and add my photos for posterity.

 

You can find them at my blog; there were too many photos to put here.

 

-Allen

[why me]

I believe there are a lot more woman that are interested in holding the priesthood.  Our culture does not foster open and upfront expressions that go against the trend.

My daughter just told me that she would leave the church if women were ordained. I am sure that there are many like her. I don't think that many women are ready for the priesthood. This would not be a matter of choice. It would be something that every female who comes of age would be expected to have. And some do not wish to make that choice. What to do with the women who refused the priesthood now? Send them to a relief society meeting while those that accept will join the men in priesthood?

 

Thus, the issue. Women are not ready for the priesthood.

[why me]

I know this is a bit late (and I appreciate smac's report last night), but I attended the OW event and wanted to jot down my observations and add my photos for posterity.

 

You can find them at my blog; there were too many photos to put here.

 

-Allen

I didn't realize that OW had microphones. It must have been noisy out there.

[why me]

Like Bruce McConkie did for the black persons.

I think that it should be stated that in the near future it will not happen. However, since god is god, he can certainly change his law. All the more reason why people who support the ordination of females should pray to him and ask him to give a revelation to ordain women. I know that many members where praying for blacks to hold the priesthood. It seemed to work.

[awyatt]

My daughter just told me that she would leave the church if women were ordained. I am sure that there are many like her.

 

I heard that same sentiment from ordinary members of the Reorganized Church 30+ years ago before women there were granted the priesthood. I have no doubt that many would want to leave, but the question remains "to whom shall we go?"

 

Thus, the issue. Women are not ready for the priesthood.

 

That is conjecture and a leap. Some are ready, some are not. (Some men are ready, some are not.) That is not the point. The point is that it is up to the Lord, and if it is to be, it will be when the Lord so decrees, not when man (or woman) decides.

 

-Allen

[why me]

Mormonnewb quotes scripture to support his position and your classy response is... Ah, draw a comparison to Satan. Par for the course cdowis, par for the course.

The classy response would be that the lord at this time said no. Now of course, OW can continue with the media, stage a protest here or there...attempt to influence women in demanding the priesthood etc. But the bottom line is: if the lord says no, it is still a no.

 

However, reverent prayer is always nice and it can work quite well.

[awyatt]

I didn't realize that OW had microphones. It must have been noisy out there.

 

If you really read what I wrote, you'll see that the PA system was under-powered. It was hard to hear anything more than 20 feet away from the speaker. Not really noisy at all.

 

-Allen

[why me]

 

That is conjecture and a leap. Some are ready, some are not. (Some men are ready, some are not.) That is not the point. The point is that it is up to the Lord, and if it is to be, it will be when the Lord so decrees, not when man (or woman) decides.

 

-Allen

If many would leave the church, then women are not ready to receive the priesthood. it would sow division at this time and the shock would be harsh for both women and for men. I think that this is the point. The time is not right for such a shock and awe change.

 

When blacks received the priesthood the time was right and the lord knew it.

[why me]

If you really read what I wrote, you'll see that the PA system was under-powered. It was hard to hear anything more than 20 feet away from the speaker. Not really noisy at all.

 

-Allen

Maybe they made a mistake. But it could have been louder with a better system. I am sure that they have learned a lesson: make sure the the system is functioning well.