Well, Ow's Moment Has Been And Gone Again...

[bluebell]

I've never thought of a 12-year-old boy being higher ranking than me.  The "authority" is about service and I have plenty of opportunities to serve.  I don't feel unequal.

 

Me either.

 

I have a 12 year old boy, and he certainly doesn't have more authority than i do-not in our home, not out in society and not in church.  

 

He may be ordained and have access to power that I don't have access to in the same way he does, but it never occurred to me that i should interpret that to mean he outranks me.

[ERayR]

That's because (assuming you're endowed) a 12 year old Deacon DOESN'T rank higher.  You've been endowed with power well beyond the Aaronic priesthood.

 

If anything is wrong it is the way we teach priesthood "power".  We teach it as the authority to use God's power. INMO it should be taught that if there is no service there is no power.  There is a tendency to desire to share in God's power without understanding it is all based on service, not aggrandizement,

[Bikeemikey]

If anything is wrong it is the way we teach priesthood "power".  We teach it as the authority to use God's power. INMO it should be taught that if there is no service there is no power.  There is a tendency to desire to share in God's power without understanding it is all based on service, not aggrandizement,

 

An un-endowed women with the authority of the priesthood granted them via a calling would also rank higher than a 12 year old.

[why me]

From my observation of lds homes, I see mormon men in secondary position to the women. I see no priesthood power at all. Just the opposite. I see men being more or less being put in a lower position. But this is not a negative observation. I just see women with much power in the home. But of course, this is just an observation.

[ERayR]

An un-endowed women with the authority of the priesthood granted them via a calling would also rank higher than a 12 year old.

 

I was not even addressing rank.  Read my post again.

[mormonnewb]

From my observation of lds homes, I see mormon men in secondary position to the women. I see no priesthood power at all. Just the opposite. I see men being more or less being put in a lower position. But this is not a negative observation. I just see women with much power in the home. But of course, this is just an observation.

 

That is certainly the case in my home.  My wife pretty much presides in our home but only because she has KEYS.  Certainly, if she had to wait for me to let her in and out of the house, she'd be much more akin to a housekeeper.  The fact that I LET her do most of the work would not mean that she had actually authority.

 

For example, my wife does most of the grocery shopping.  That, in and of itself, would not mean that she had any AUTHORITY over our household finances.  I could send her out to store with certain amount of cash to spend.  What gives my wife authority is that she has access (e.g., keys) to our bank accounts, etc.  Her name is on the deed to our home.  As a result, she has actual (and legal) authority to make decisions with regards to our finances.  Without my permission, she can make substantial purchases.  And while she is kind enough to usually consult me on such purchases, she does have the ability to purchase, say, granite countertops without my "enthusiastic support" (hypothetically speaking, of course).

 

On the other hand, if she did not have any access to our finances, but instead, could only present checks written by me (or our 12-year-old son), would she really be an "equal" partner in this household?  She would be, in effect, my dependent.  I would have a legal (and spiritual) obligation to exercise righteous dominion, but she would not be my PARTNER.

 

At present, NO woman in the Church (with the possible exception of temple matrons) has the ability to write checks and make "heavenly transactions."  No woman can perform baptisms, bless the sacrament, give blessings, confer the power of the Holy Spirit, seal families for time and eternity, etc.

 

Given that woman generally "feel" equal, it appears that we men are exercising righteous dominion but it does not change the FACTS.  Women are not equal to men in this Church.  Perhaps, that's the way HF wants it, but given how much better my wife presides over MY household, I'm not so sure.

[Akboy]

Could someone explain this issue for non-Mormons? What is it about the Priesthood that women want? What can't they do as long as they don't have the Priesthood?

[bluebell]

Could someone explain this issue for non-Mormons? What is it about the Priesthood that women want? What can't they do as long as they don't have the Priesthood?

 

They can't give blessings, officiate in ordinances (they can't baptize anyone, for example), or preside in meetings.

[Akboy]

They can't give blessings, officiate in ordinances (they can't baptize anyone, for example), or preside in meetings.

What kind of blessings? What is presiding a meeting?

[bluebell]

What kind of blessings? What is presiding a meeting?

 

Blessings of healing, for example.  When a healing blessing is given, the person giving it does so thru the authority of the Priesthood. A woman can pray for the healing of a loved one, but she can't do so using the priesthood. 

 

Presiding at a meeting just means that you are ultimately in charge of the meeting.  Women can be in charge of meetings (the Relief Society president is often in charge of meetings) but they do so under the authority of a male (that's the part that bugs them) priesthood leader (like a bishop).  This is true even if he's not actually present.

[MorningStar]

Me either.

 

I have a 12 year old boy, and he certainly doesn't have more authority than i do-not in our home, not out in society and not in church.  

 

He may be ordained and have access to power that I don't have access to in the same way he does, but it never occurred to me that i should interpret that to mean he outranks me.

I have a 14-year-old and a son will will turn 12 this summer.  My view is, "I made you.  I can send you back to where you came from."

[Lachoneus]

I have a 14-year-old and a son will will turn 12 this summer.  My view is, "I made you.  I can send you back to where you came from."

Luke 2:51.

[Scott Lloyd]

If anything is wrong it is the way we teach priesthood "power".  We teach it as the authority to use God's power. INMO it should be taught that if there is no service there is no power.  There is a tendency to desire to share in God's power without understanding it is all based on service, not aggrandizement,

A reiteration of D&C 121 would be useful in that respect.

[cdowis]

I have a 14-year-old and a son will will turn 12 this summer.  

 

I have an 18 year old who will turn 12 this summer.

[MorningStar]

I have an 18 year old who will turn 12 this summer.

  That mature, huh?

[cdowis]

A recent editorial gives a possible insight to what OW is all about.  It is part of the "grievance industry"

 

The protests of the 60s and early 70s brought about profound change and many of the radicals back then have become authority figures today especially in the media. But now we have a new anti-authority movement and it has been created by the grievance industry which President Obama and the Democratic Party have used very effectively to assume and maintain power.

The grievance industry basically says that America is not a fair nation that the deck is stacked against minorities, women, the poor, gays, atheists, Muslims -- you name it. And the bad guys are white males, the Republican Party and anybody who doesn't buy into the grievance industry.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2014/04/08/bill-oreilly-grievance-industry-takes-momentum

 

It's not really about women getting the priesthood, but that the church's authorities are discriminating against women -- priesthood, participating in decision making, etc.

Edited April 9, 2014 by cdowis

[why me]

 

Given that woman generally "feel" equal, it appears that we men are exercising righteous dominion but it does not change the FACTS.  Women are not equal to men in this Church.  Perhaps, that's the way HF wants it, but given how much better my wife presides over MY household, I'm not so sure.

Let me try to explain this again. From my experience with lds men, it is their wives who are telling them what to do. They rule the roost not the men. The women are the bosses over the guys....the power relationship is on the women's side when it comes to the home.

[JLHPROF]

A recent editorial gives a possible insight to what OW is all about.  It is part of the "grievance industry"

 

 

It's not really about women getting the priesthood, but that the church's authorities are discriminating against women -- priesthood, participating in decision making, etc.

 

Yep.  Of course that's what it's about.  It is about "equality", not "priesthood".  It's about power to decide, not power of priesthood.

It's about them gaining an equal say in running the Church.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yep.  Of course that's what it's about.  It is about "equality", not "priesthood".  It's about power to decide, not power of priesthood.

It's about them gaining an equal say in running the Church.

If that's true, then they've already missed the mark about what holding the priesthood is all about.

 

Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

 

Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson--

 

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that he powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled [except] upon the principles of righteousness.

 

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

 

Behold, ere he is awere, he is left unto himself to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God."

 

 

(Doctrine and Covenants 121:34-38)

 

We already have quite enough power seekers and would-be self-aggrandizers among ordained priesthood holders in the Church as it is. We don't need any more, be they men or women.

[Teancum]

They can't give blessings, officiate in ordinances (they can't baptize anyone, for example), or preside in meetings.

  Nor can they hold any positions of leadership other than in women's type or children's organizations. They cannot be a bishop, Elder's Quorum President, Stake President. 70 or apostle.

 

All the decisions of the women's organizations are subjec to male leadership approval.  Nor do they preside in a home with a man at the head. Well the man presides in other words.

[Bikeemikey]

If that's true, then they've already missed the mark about what holding the priesthood is all about.

 

(Doctrine and Covenants 121:34-38)

 

We already have quite enough power seekers and would-be self-aggrandizers among ordained priesthood holders in the Church as it is. We don't need any more, be they men or women.

 

Well thats a very generous and christ like way to look at it.

[cdowis]

  Nor can they hold any positions of leadership other than in women's type or children's organizations. They cannot be a bishop, Elder's Quorum President, Stake President. 70 or apostle.

 

All the decisions of the women's organizations are subjec to male leadership approval.  Nor do they preside in a home with a man at the head. Well the man presides in other words.

 

Following your logic, every decision on the ward, stake, church level are "approved" by the ultimate authority of the LDS church, the prophet, seer and revelator holding all of the keys of authority, and he is a MAN.  So the ultimate demand for equality is that the president of the church must be equally available to a woman or a man.

 

That is the bottom line demand for the grievance industry.  And the "head of the household" will be decided... how?  Coin toss, annual election by the entire family.....

 

May I suggest that the COC would be a good option for those who are so dissatisfied with this fundamental decision on how the church is governed.

Edited April 10, 2014 by cdowis

[Scott Lloyd]

Well thats a very generous and christ like way to look at it.

I've said essentially that power seeking and self-aggrandizement are antithetical to the priesthood. That's true, it's scriptural and I see nothing unChristlike about it.

 

In stating the principle and decrying the tendency, I've not accused anyone specifically. Why the overreaction?

Edited April 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

I've said essentially that power seeking and self-aggrandizement are antithetical to the priesthood. That's true, it's scriptural and I see nothing unChristlike about it.

In stating the principle and decrying the tendency, I've not accused anyone specifically. Why the overreaction?

You only accused people generally!

Like I said, very Christlike.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Scott Lloyd]

You only accused people generally!

Like I said, very Christlike.

In response to someone else's comment, I used a conditional: "If that's true. ..."

 

I thus accused no one.

 

But you are falsely accusing me.