Hamilton Porter Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 I have a great book to recommend. It is a collection of writings from the greatest physicists involved in the creation of relativity and quantum physics, including 6 Nobel Prize winners. While they do not talk about the afterlife, all of them, ALL of them discuss the necessity of mysticism and their own mystical experiences. It is fascinating that they are scientific geniuses AND mystics. Ken Wilber is the editor of the book and has a fantastic introduction. Quantum Questions: Mystical Writings of the World's Great Physicists Here is a snippet of a review on amazon.com: Looks like it's through a Buddhist publisher.
MiserereNobis Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Looks like it's through a Buddhist publisher. Shambhala Publications has been Wilber's life-long publisher. They focus on Buddhism, certainly, but also spirituality, philosophy, psychology, etc. In any case, the book is an anthology (except for the introduction written by Wilber), so it is simply a collection of the writings of the scientific geniuses behind modern physics. The point is to hear them in their own words and it is astonishing at the unanimity among them when it comes to mysticism. Edited March 12, 2014 by MiserereNobis
Anteojito Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Even atheist superstar Christopher Hitchens did at the end. He said he would never have a death bed confession, and I do not beleive he did. However, in an interview with, CBS I think, when asked what he thought now of an afterlife, he said the he still did not think there was one, but he liked surprises. There are no atheists in foxholes.I spent 20+ years in the army and served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm an atheist and I never changed my mind regardless of the many times someone tried to kill me. I had several friends in the same boat. Edited March 12, 2014 by Anteojito 1
Ahab Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 I spent 20+ years in the army and served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm an atheist and I never changed my mind regardless of the many times someone tried to kill me. I had several friends in the same boat.You're not really an atheist, though, even though you may think you are.The moment you consider any kind of being to be the most supreme kind of being is the moment you are not an atheist, and even though you may not be the brightest person on this planet I know that you know there is a kind of being that is better than all of the others.
thatjimguy Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 Unless Hitchens proclaimed a belief in God at some point there, I'd say he was an atheist in a foxhole. But he was still hoping he was wrong. That hope is a particle of faith. He would have liked to been proven wrong is what he was saying. He would like to live on. No, he wanted to beleive, even though he was in unbelief for the majority.
Gray Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 You're not really an atheist, though, even though you may think you are.The moment you consider any kind of being to be the most supreme kind of being is the moment you are not an atheist, and even though you may not be the brightest person on this planet I know that you know there is a kind of being that is better than all of the others. I'm not sure why people make comments like this. Are you in denial about the existence of atheists? Does that make you an aatheist? Personally I don't believe in the existence of aatheists, which would make me an aaatheist. 4
Gray Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) But he was still hoping he was wrong. That hope is a particle of faith. He would have liked to been proven wrong is what he was saying. He would like to live on. No, he wanted to beleive, even though he was in unbelief for the majority. Atheism is about belief in God (or lack thereof), and his comment wasn't even about God. Wanting to believe is not the same thing as believing. Edited March 12, 2014 by Gray
thatjimguy Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 I spent 20+ years in the army and served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm an atheist and I never changed my mind regardless of the many times someone tried to kill me. I had several friends in the same boat. First, thanks for your service. Second, well, it is just a cute lame saying. Actually I am surprised I use it as much as I bash people from using them all the time. Thanks for setting me straight. Next, do you think that being in that boat helps the atheism at all? Like a defensive mechanism for survival? In a nutshell, what has been the source of your unbelief? (if I may ask that is) 1
Ahab Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 I'm not sure why people make comments like this. Are you in denial about the existence of atheists? Does that make you an aatheist? Personally I don't believe in the existence of aatheists, which would make me an aaatheist. I was just stating the truth, whether or not you agree with it, and yes, bro, I do deny that there are any true atheists.
thatjimguy Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 Atheism is about belief in God (or lack thereof), and his comment wasn't even about God. Wanting to believe is not the same thing as believing. Wating to belive is the keystone of faith. From my favorite, Alma 32... 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than adesire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. This means you dont have to have the whole perfect knowledge at all (or even close) to excerise faith.
Gray Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) I was just stating the truth, whether or not you agree with it, and yes, bro, I do deny that there are any true atheists. I'm not sure that's helpful, any more than denying there are true Mormons or true Scotsmen. It's helpful to be able to put yourself in someone else's place, so you can comprehend at least why they might think the way they do. Otherwise you get theists who think that atheists are secret believers and atheists who think that theists are secret doubters (I've seen both). Neither position shows much charity or empathy. Edited March 12, 2014 by Gray 2
Gray Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 Wating to belive is the keystone of faith. From my favorite, Alma 32... 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than adesire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. This means you dont have to have the whole perfect knowledge at all (or even close) to excerise faith. It could lead to faith eventually, although in Hitch's case I think he was just trying to be funny. In any case, he didn't express any desire to believe in God.
JLHPROF Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 I always said that when I get to the next life I would like the assignment of greeting the atheists after they die. I doubt the look of surprise would ever get old eternities without end. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) I think this applies to most of our beliefs. We are stubborn by nature and will dismiss any evidence that goes against our established notions. This is not just atheists vs believers. It applies to most doctrinal discussions on this board too. To each, his or her own, but the evidence I accept in favor of an afterlife is not subject to interpretation in the same manner as are the various stances in doctrinal debates that take place in this corner of Cyberspace. Either the people whose accounts I trust had the experiences with people beyond the veil that they related to me, or they did not. Those experiences are not the type that may be summarily dismissed as simply "a spot of rancid meat" or a hallucination. I'm talking about experiences which involve two-way interaction, and in one of which there was no way the person on this side of the veil would have known the information conveyed if the person on the other side of the veil had not given it to him. P.S.: With due respect, perhaps your years in The Ivory Tower made you too cynical? Edited March 12, 2014 by Kenngo1969
JLHPROF Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 P.S.: With due respect, perhaps your years in The Ivory Tower made you too cynical? Ivory Tower hmm...just call me Atreyu. And I'm not cynical. I was just observing the similarities between people being unwilling to accept evidence that goes against their doctrinal beliefs and the unwillingness to accept evidence in the atheism/believer debate. Not a whole lot of difference in attitude.
Kenngo1969 Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Ivory Tower hmm...just call me Atreyu. And I'm not cynical. I was just observing the similarities between people being unwilling to accept evidence that goes against their doctrinal beliefs and the unwillingness to accept evidence in the atheism/believer debate. Not a whole lot of difference in attitude.In my case, personally, there's not a lot of difference in attitude? Begging your pardon, Sir, but, with due respect, how could you possibly know that? To the best of my knowledge, we have never met in real life, and our acquaintance is, rather, limited entirely to Cyberspace (and is relatively recent, at that). Yes, I have my position on the existence of an afterlife, and I'm reluctant to abandon what I view as solid evidence for that position merely because someone who has a position which is diametrically opposed to mine believes I must conclude, contrary to the old adage, that, "Alleged absence of evidence really is evidence of absence." Look at my recent posts. For that matter, review all of them you can find (or anything else I've posted anywhere in Cyberspace). Yes, I disagree with those who have concluded that God does not exist or that there's no way to know whether He exists or not. I disagree, for example, with Gray. But I doubt s/he would conclude that I have been dogmatic or disrespectful in doing so. Cheers! Edited March 12, 2014 by Kenngo1969 1
Calm Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 I would think everyone would hope there's an afterlife.Not if they think they may be doomed to eternal hell.There is something to be said for what amounts to the ultimate state of peace and rest...in nonexistence we are at such peace we don't even feel that.
thatjimguy Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 It could lead to faith eventually, although in Hitch's case I think he was just trying to be funny. In any case, he didn't express any desire to believe in God. He was trying to be funny, but I think in his voice you can tell he meant it.
Anteojito Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 You're not really an atheist, though, even though you may think you are.The moment you consider any kind of being to be the most supreme kind of being is the moment you are not an atheist, and even though you may not be the brightest person on this planet I know that you know there is a kind of being that is better than all of the others.I always like it when complete strangers seem to think they know what I am or am not.
Anteojito Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 First, thanks for your service. Second, well, it is just a cute lame saying. Actually I am surprised I use it as much as I bash people from using them all the time. Thanks for setting me straight. Next, do you think that being in that boat helps the atheism at all? Like a defensive mechanism for survival? In a nutshell, what has been the source of your unbelief? (if I may ask that is)Do you mean does being in combat help being an atheist or does being an atheist help when you are in combat? An LDS guy I knew once told me a story (he was trying to get me to come back to church). This one time while he was in Iraq he was getting ready to go on a patrol when he felt the "spirit" tell him that he should not go. At first he ignored the prompting but it came on even stronger, so he talked to the Platoon Sergeant and got out of the patrol. Well sure enough the patrol got hit by IEDs and automatic weapon fire. One member of the patrol was killed and some others were wounded. This guy tells me this story as if it is some sort of proof that God was looking out for him. What kind of God gets one guy out of danger and lets the others go through the wood chipper? A ****, that's what kind of god.
altersteve Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 You're not really an atheist, though, even though you may think you are.The moment you consider any kind of being to be the most supreme kind of being is the moment you are not an atheist, and even though you may not be the brightest person on this planet I know that you know there is a kind of being that is better than all of the others. Since when was it up to you to decide what someone believes or does not believe? It always makes me so sad to see fellow believers in God, and fellow Latter-day Saints no less, behave like this. 1
Calm Posted March 13, 2014 Posted March 13, 2014 Do you mean does being in combat help being an atheist or does being an atheist help when you are in combat? An LDS guy I knew once told me a story (he was trying to get me to come back to church). This one time while he was in Iraq he was getting ready to go on a patrol when he felt the "spirit" tell him that he should not go. At first he ignored the prompting but it came on even stronger, so he talked to the Platoon Sergeant and got out of the patrol. Well sure enough the patrol got hit by IEDs and automatic weapon fire. One member of the patrol was killed and some others were wounded. This guy tells me this story as if it is some sort of proof that God was looking out for him. What kind of God gets one guy out of danger and lets the others go through the wood chipper? A ****, that's what kind of god.There is a possibility the Spirit was attempting to tell the others...including a commander who could have altered things and only the one guy listened. Not saying this was the way it was, how could we know? 2
thatjimguy Posted March 13, 2014 Posted March 13, 2014 Do you mean does being in combat help being an atheist or does being an atheist help when you are in combat? An LDS guy I knew once told me a story (he was trying to get me to come back to church). This one time while he was in Iraq he was getting ready to go on a patrol when he felt the "spirit" tell him that he should not go. At first he ignored the prompting but it came on even stronger, so he talked to the Platoon Sergeant and got out of the patrol. Well sure enough the patrol got hit by IEDs and automatic weapon fire. One member of the patrol was killed and some others were wounded. This guy tells me this story as if it is some sort of proof that God was looking out for him. What kind of God gets one guy out of danger and lets the others go through the wood chipper? A ****, that's what kind of god. Now that is one of the lame stories I usually bash. I usually hate the story of some guy that had a tractor coming at him from behind and he heard the word "move" in his head and dodged out of the way. I think to myself, why doesn't God help me and tell me things like that when I am in need, and for things less life threatening? I think that sometimes these mormon folklore stories do us more harm than good. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 13, 2014 Posted March 13, 2014 Do you mean does being in combat help being an atheist or does being an atheist help when you are in combat? An LDS guy I knew once told me a story (he was trying to get me to come back to church). This one time while he was in Iraq he was getting ready to go on a patrol when he felt the "spirit" tell him that he should not go. At first he ignored the prompting but it came on even stronger, so he talked to the Platoon Sergeant and got out of the patrol. Well sure enough the patrol got hit by IEDs and automatic weapon fire. One member of the patrol was killed and some others were wounded. This guy tells me this story as if it is some sort of proof that God was looking out for him. What kind of God gets one guy out of danger and lets the others go through the wood chipper? A ****, that's what kind of god.I can see how people might reach that conclusion, based on that evidence. It's tempting to conclude that an awful lot of people have gotten the shaft here on Earth, not just in combat but in an endless variety of other, equally-terrible circumstances as well. That's why I'm reluctant to conclude that I have been "blessed" while anyone in different or less fortunate circumstances than I am has not. There is so much about our circumstances here on Earth that we cannot control: the only thing we can control is our reaction to those circumstances. If Viktor Frankl could find meaning in his life amidst the dire circumstances that provoked him to ponder that question, then perhaps I, whatever my challenges, don't have it so bad. I guess the question, as Melvin Udall (a Jack Nicholson character in the film whose title comes from this question) asked, is, "What if this is as good as it gets?" Another question I might ask is, "Is this truly the Second Act, or is our being here simply an accident of fate, after which we fade into nothingness?" I won't even pretend that I can convince you otherwise if that's what you believe. I choose to believe (based on what I believe to be reliable evidence) that it is not. I think there was a "First Act," and that there will be a "Third Act." To each, his or her own. While, again, I can see how you would arrive at the conclusion you have based on that evidence in isolation, I disagree. I wish you well. 1
Anteojito Posted March 13, 2014 Posted March 13, 2014 Now that is one of the lame stories I usually bash. I usually hate the story of some guy that had a tractor coming at him from behind and he heard the word "move" in his head and dodged out of the way. I think to myself, why doesn't God help me and tell me things like that when I am in need, and for things less life threatening? I think that sometimes these mormon folklore stories do us more harm than good.Right. I think the guy had a moment of fear that made him try to get out of the patrol and then he uses the "spirit" to ease his conscience later.
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