A Theory Of Lds Evolution (Add Yours Here)

emarkp · February 14, 2014

You are completely off. Jsus walking onwater was done perfectly through the laws of science. A person getting healed through faith is done entirely within the perfect laws of science. God is not magic nor use magical means.

Making up a new definition of science doesn't make you correct by definition. Additionally, there is no consensus about God's relationship to (say) the laws of physics (my opinion is that He wrote them, others believe that He simply obeys them and knows them better than any other, but there is no revelation that clears this up).

Science requires objective evidence, repeatable by experiment. God doesn't dance according to an experimenter's query. His ways are above our ways, and are inherently subjective. Thus, they cannot be interrogated by science, but by faith.

Rob Osborn · February 14, 2014

Making up a new definition of science doesn't make you correct by definition. Additionally, there is no consensus about God's relationship to (say) the laws of physics (my opinion is that He wrote them, others believe that He simply obeys them and knows them better than any other, but there is no revelation that clears this up).

Science requires objective evidence, repeatable by experiment. God doesn't dance according to an experimenter's query. His ways are above our ways, and are inherently subjective. Thus, they cannot be interrogated by science, but by faith.

We interrogate Gods works in everything we do- everything is Gods handiwork. Science, by strict definition, encompasses reality and truth which include God and his works of the which we are made manifest. There clearly is an agenda to make atheism a reality in science and thus divorce reality from evidence.

thesometimesaint · February 14, 2014

So are you saying you define omnipotence as power that can not be explained via observational science/evidence rather than total and unlimited power? That seems interesting and I might be able to get behind that.

I think whenever we limit omnipotence to what we think is possible we limit God. Science is a limited way of understanding our world/universe. Albeit a very useful one.

teddyaware · February 14, 2014

Oh my Hades froze again, you said something I can agree with

Then let's keep that frigidly cold weather a comin'!

Stone holm · February 14, 2014

I think whenever we limit omnipotence to what we think is possible we limit God. Science is a limited way of understanding our world/universe. Albeit a very useful one.

I don't think anyone is limiting it to what we think is possible, but God is limited by natural laws. Eventually natural laws and spiritual/religious laws will merge, and we will see that it is all one law which governs God, mankind, and devils. We clearly acknowledge in Ether, that God cannot do just anything...but is bound by certain laws and procedures. If that were not the case, do you really think He would have sent His Beloved Son to Earth to be mocked, brutally tortured, and then brutally put to death? No, those were part of the recipe to bake this certain cake -- its a recipe that binds even God.

thesometimesaint · February 14, 2014

I don't think anyone is limiting it to what we think is possible, but God is limited by natural laws. Eventually natural laws and spiritual/religious laws will merge, and we will see that it is all one law which governs God, mankind, and devils. We clearly acknowledge in Ether, that God cannot do just anything...but is bound by certain laws and procedures. If that were not the case, do you really think He would have sent His Beloved Son to Earth to be mocked, brutally tortured, and then brutally put to death? No, those were part of the recipe to bake this certain cake -- its a recipe that binds even God.

Omnipotent means without limits. Personally I think there is a need to modify what it means to God being omnipotent.

That is probably true, but science can't deal with things pertain to God, and/or devils.

If God is limited then he is not by definition omnipotent.

I certainly believe he did all those things and more. They are definitely on my list of things to ask God about when I go to meet him. Unfortunately I can't put any of it into science yet.

Stone holm · February 15, 2014

Omnipotent means without limits. Personally I think there is a need to modify what it means to God being omnipotent.

That is probably true, but science can't deal with things pertain to God, and/or devils.

If God is limited then he is not by definition omnipotent.

I certainly believe he did all those things and more. They are definitely on my list of things to ask God about when I go to meet him. Unfortunately I can't put any of it into science yet.

I do not believe God is omnipotent pursuant to that definition, and I don't believe that definition is consistent with our teachings.

emarkp · February 15, 2014

Science, by strict definition, encompasses reality and truth which include God and his works of the which we are made manifest.

No, you're quite wrong here. Science is incapable of investigating God's work beyond a certain point.

I think whenever we limit omnipotence to what we think is possible we limit God. Science is a limited way of understanding our world/universe. Albeit a very useful one.

The word "omnipotent" is only used as a title in the standard works. We have no definition of what it means. I have my own interpretation, but AFAIK there is no revealed definition.

I don't think anyone is limiting it to what we think is possible, but God is limited by natural laws.

There is no evidence of that. He is limited by His own word, but I am unaware of any "natural laws" that He is subject to. In my opinion, the laws of the universe we endeavor to understand via the scientific method were written by Him. I would be surprised if those limited him.

We clearly acknowledge in Ether, that God cannot do just anything...but is bound by certain laws and procedures. If that were not the case, do you really think He would have sent His Beloved Son to Earth to be mocked, brutally tortured, and then brutally put to death? No, those were part of the recipe to bake this certain cake -- its a recipe that binds even God.

I can conclude that His plan is the best way, but it doesn't follow that it is the only way. It's inferring quite a lot to say that because to our eyes the Atonement was such an ordeal that there must not have existed any alternative.

Omnipotent means without limits.

...

If God is limited then he is not by definition omnipotent.

This is circular logic. Your definition is yours alone. I at least don't agree with it.

Edited February 15, 2014 by emarkp

JeremyOrbe-Smith · February 15, 2014

The word "omnipotent" is only used as a title in the standard works.

It's really worth emphasizing this, I think. Most of the "omni" attributes that theologians try to retroactively graft onto God don't actually appear in scripture, so why should we be bothered if that's not really what God is like? We have some reference to a Lord Omnipotent in our scriptures, but I suspect that it might be an artifact of translation - that is, while translating Mosiah 3-5 (the only places in the Book of Mormon where the word appears) Joseph Smith was using the title found in the King James English of Revelation 19:6 as an epithet for Christ, the individual man. And underlying the English "omnipotent" in Revelation, the Greek actually has it as "Pantokrator", the All-Ruler. He certainly has all the binding religious power, but that doesn't necessarily mean He can create from nothing a rock too heavy for Him to lift.

Bikeemikey · February 15, 2014

It's really worth emphasizing this, I think. Most of the "omni" attributes that theologians try to retroactively graft onto God don't actually appear in scripture, so why should we be bothered if that's not really what God is like? We have some reference to a Lord Omnipotent in our scriptures, but I suspect that it might be an artifact of translation - that is, while translating Mosiah 3-5 (the only places in the Book of Mormon where the word appears) Joseph Smith was using the title found in the King James English of Revelation 19:6 as an epithet for Christ, the individual man. And underlying the English "omnipotent" in Revelation, the Greek actually has it as "Pantokrator", the All-Ruler. He certainly has all the binding religious power, but that doesn't necessarily mean He can create from nothing a rock too heavy for Him to lift.

God has all power and knowledge he needs to achieve his ends... I couldn't careless if there is other stuff he doesn't know about or can't do.

Rob Osborn · February 15, 2014

There is a strong misconception out there with the belief system people have on God's power and ability. I tend to think people generally picture God as this all "too" powerful being whose power is beyond science, beyond physics, beyond comprehension. I believe this is why many think it best to exclude God's power and ability from observable science. But this is where fantasy land begins and reality ceases to exist. In nature we observe very complex actions that go above and beyond our current comprehension. In its truest sense, all life is a miracle in that we have no real clue how it all works. And yet it is nothing more than God moving in his glory. We are so primitive still in understanding how intelligence works and operates. God's power and actions are based entirely off of a knowledge of truth and law. His power, acting in nature, completely and entirely hinges off of his ability to perfectly utilize knowledge within scientific law. We probably only truly understand less than 1% of the laws of science. We tend to think of our technology as highly advanced and yet for mankind it is but in truth God's teaching us of this technology is similar to teaching a child to ride a bike while in comparison Gods understanding is like putting rovers on Mars. We havent even really been able to decipher elemental stuff like gravity and magnetism or even light for that matter. And all this is only the beginning to truly understanding the powers of heaven and the universe.

thesometimesaint · February 15, 2014

No, you're quite wrong here. Science is incapable of investigating God's work beyond a certain point.

The word "omnipotent" is only used as a title in the standard works. We have no definition of what it means. I have my own interpretation, but AFAIK there is no revealed definition.

There is no evidence of that. He is limited by His own word, but I am unaware of any "natural laws" that He is subject to. In my opinion, the laws of the universe we endeavor to understand via the scientific method were written by Him. I would be surprised if those limited him.

I can conclude that His plan is the best way, but it doesn't follow that it is the only way. It's inferring quite a lot to say that because to our eyes the Atonement was such an ordeal that there must not have existed any alternative.

This is circular logic. Your definition is yours alone. I at least don't agree with it.

I wish it were my definition alone, unfortunately that is the dictionary definition. We can argue with the dictionary all we want, but if we want to effectively communicate it is best to stick with it.

thesometimesaint · February 15, 2014

There is a strong misconception out there with the belief system people have on God's power and ability. I tend to think people generally picture God as this all "too" powerful being whose power is beyond science, beyond physics, beyond comprehension. I believe this is why many think it best to exclude God's power and ability from observable science. But this is where fantasy land begins and reality ceases to exist. In nature we observe very complex actions that go above and beyond our current comprehension. In its truest sense, all life is a miracle in that we have no real clue how it all works. And yet it is nothing more than God moving in his glory. We are so primitive still in understanding how intelligence works and operates. God's power and actions are based entirely off of a knowledge of truth and law. His power, acting in nature, completely and entirely hinges off of his ability to perfectly utilize knowledge within scientific law. We probably only truly understand less than 1% of the laws of science. We tend to think of our technology as highly advanced and yet for mankind it is but in truth God's teaching us of this technology is similar to teaching a child to ride a bike while in comparison Gods understanding is like putting rovers on Mars. We havent even really been able to decipher elemental stuff like gravity and magnetism or even light for that matter. And all this is only the beginning to truly understanding the powers of heaven and the universe.

I've used the dictionary for my definitions of words like omnipotent. We can argue with the dictionary all we want. But it really does more harm than good to do that.

Science is based on the idea that we can understand(comprehend) our world, and make rational predictions about it. Throw that out and we're better off living in caves afraid of the dark.

Then whose observable God is science going to use? Muslims with its 4 major sects, they abandoned science a thousand years ago; Christians with their some 40,000 different sects, along with talking snakes, floating axe heads, stopping the sun from moving, and all ; Jews with its 4 major sects; That is just the Abrahamic ones. Shall we go with far older ones like Zoroastrianism, Hindu, Sikh, Bu. How about Animism? Whose Gods are we going put up there for all to worship and bend science to please?

I've never maintained we know all there is to know about anything. However if your faith is based on what we don't know. Then God is an ever decreasing quantity (A God of the Gaps). Sure; We've got a pretty good understanding of how a cell works. How plants and animals work. Is there more to learn? Of course. But lets not throw out what we do know just to maintain a religious God of the Gaps argument.

SEE

There is matter and there is the four fundamental forces. We know of no others. Dark matter and dark energy are just that "Dark". We know nothing about them except something is speeding up the expansion of the universe.

You are far too generous, about 96-97% of the known universe is made up of things/forces that we know nothing about.

As Galileo famously said: "The Church can tell me how to go to Heaven, but not how the heavens go".

Stone holm · February 15, 2014

I've used the dictionary for my definitions of words like omnipotent. We can argue with the dictionary all we want. But it really does more harm than good to do that.

Science is based on the idea that we can understand(comprehend) our world, and make rational predictions about it. Throw that out and we're better off living in caves afraid of the dark.

Then whose observable God is science going to use? Muslims with its 4 major sects, they abandoned science a thousand years ago; Christians with their some 40,000 different sects, along with talking snakes, floating axe heads, stopping the sun from moving, and all ; Jews with its 4 major sects; That is just the Abrahamic ones. Shall we go with far older ones like Zoroastrianism, Hindu, Sikh, Bu. How about Animism? Whose Gods are we going put up there for all to worship and bend science to please?

I've never maintained we know all there is to know about anything. However if your faith is based on what we don't know. Then God is an ever decreasing quantity (A God of the Gaps). Sure; We've got a pretty good understanding of how a cell works. How plants and animals work. Is there more to learn? Of course. But lets not throw out what we do know just to maintain a religious God of the Gaps argument.
SEE

There is matter and there is the four fundamental forces. We know of no others. Dark matter and dark energy are just that "Dark". We know nothing about them except something is speeding up the expansion of the universe.

You are far too generous, about 96-97% of the known universe is made up of things/forces that we know nothing about.

As Galileo famously said: "The Church can tell me how to go to Heaven, but not how the heavens go".

Oh my, I never thought I would read you giving a semantical definition argument

Stone holm · February 15, 2014

There is a strong misconception out there with the belief system people have on God's power and ability. I tend to think people generally picture God as this all "too" powerful being whose power is beyond science, beyond physics, beyond comprehension. I believe this is why many think it best to exclude God's power and ability from observable science. But this is where fantasy land begins and reality ceases to exist. In nature we observe very complex actions that go above and beyond our current comprehension. In its truest sense, all life is a miracle in that we have no real clue how it all works. And yet it is nothing more than God moving in his glory. We are so primitive still in understanding how intelligence works and operates. God's power and actions are based entirely off of a knowledge of truth and law. His power, acting in nature, completely and entirely hinges off of his ability to perfectly utilize knowledge within scientific law. We probably only truly understand less than 1% of the laws of science. We tend to think of our technology as highly advanced and yet for mankind it is but in truth God's teaching us of this technology is similar to teaching a child to ride a bike while in comparison Gods understanding is like putting rovers on Mars. We havent even really been able to decipher elemental stuff like gravity and magnetism or even light for that matter. And all this is only the beginning to truly understanding the powers of heaven and the universe.

This truly seems strange to be agreeing with you instead of thesometimesaint did you guys do a name switch or something?

thesometimesaint · February 15, 2014

Oh my, I never thought I would read you giving a semantical definition argument

Life is strange. :lol:

thesometimesaint · February 15, 2014

This truly seems strange to be agreeing with you instead of thesometimesaint did you guys do a name switch or something?

Sometimes it is very strange. :lol: :lol:

Rob Osborn · February 15, 2014

I've used the dictionary for my definitions of words like omnipotent. We can argue with the dictionary all we want. But it really does more harm than good to do that.

Science is based on the idea that we can understand(comprehend) our world, and make rational predictions about it. Throw that out and we're better off living in caves afraid of the dark.

Then whose observable God is science going to use? Muslims with its 4 major sects, they abandoned science a thousand years ago; Christians with their some 40,000 different sects, along with talking snakes, floating axe heads, stopping the sun from moving, and all ; Jews with its 4 major sects; That is just the Abrahamic ones. Shall we go with far older ones like Zoroastrianism, Hindu, Sikh, Bu. How about Animism? Whose Gods are we going put up there for all to worship and bend science to please?

I've never maintained we know all there is to know about anything. However if your faith is based on what we don't know. Then God is an ever decreasing quantity (A God of the Gaps). Sure; We've got a pretty good understanding of how a cell works. How plants and animals work. Is there more to learn? Of course. But lets not throw out what we do know just to maintain a religious God of the Gaps argument.
SEE

There is matter and there is the four fundamental forces. We know of no others. Dark matter and dark energy are just that "Dark". We know nothing about them except something is speeding up the expansion of the universe.

You are far too generous, about 96-97% of the known universe is made up of things/forces that we know nothing about.

As Galileo famously said: "The Church can tell me how to go to Heaven, but not how the heavens go".

Let me just ask do you believe God works within scientific means or just uses some kind of special magic?

Flyonthewall · February 16, 2014

This thread started to remind me of the movie Thor...

Jane Foster: Describe exactly what happened to you last night.
Thor: Your ancestors called it magic...
[Thor skims through a book on Norse mythology]
Thor: ...but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same.

Stone holm · February 16, 2014

This thread started to remind me of the movie Thor...

Yeah, same goes for miracles.

thesometimesaint · February 16, 2014

Let me just ask do you believe God works within scientific means or just uses some kind of special magic?

I believe in God. I have no idea as to how he uses his power to achieve what he wants. The best explanation I've heard so far is that he uses Evolution in Creation.

Brian 2.0 · February 16, 2014

This isn't my theory, but thought I'd add it here.

I shoot interviews now and then for a Russian television station that does a lot paranormal things. I never see the final show just shoot the subject and hand over the footage. Just a quick odd job, but it's fun because it's always these smart, well-spoken, people with really out there theories/alien experiences/etc.

I just shot one today who had a take on evolution. He pointed out the "missing link" which he said was between Neanderthal and us humans. He says an alien race, who the ancient Summarians called the "Annunaki" came to earth and performed genetic experimentation/breeding with the neanderthals to produce humans for the purpose of having humans mine gold for this alien race. The Annunaki who were from a distant planet, used Mars as a weigh station for this transport of gold. The remains of their Mars city of Cydonia is where we find pyramids and the face on Mars.

thesometimesaint · February 16, 2014

This isn't my theory, but thought I'd add it here.

I shoot interviews now and then for a Russian television station that does a lot paranormal things. I never see the final show just shoot the subject and hand over the footage. Just a quick odd job, but it's fun because it's always these smart, well-spoken, people with really out there theories/alien experiences/etc.

I just shot one today who had a take on evolution. He pointed out the "missing link" which he said was between Neanderthal and us humans. He says an alien race, who the ancient Summarians called the "Annunaki" came to earth and performed genetic experimentation/breeding with the neanderthals to produce humans for the purpose of having humans mine gold for this alien race. The Annunaki who were from a distant planet, used Mars as a weigh station for this transport of gold. The remains of their Mars city of Cydonia is where we find pyramids and the face on Mars.

The human mind always goes to completion. That is why works.

See Face on Mars.

http://science1.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast24may_1/

Edited February 16, 2014 by thesometimesaint

Stone holm · February 16, 2014

This isn't my theory, but thought I'd add it here.

I shoot interviews now and then for a Russian television station that does a lot paranormal things. I never see the final show just shoot the subject and hand over the footage. Just a quick odd job, but it's fun because it's always these smart, well-spoken, people with really out there theories/alien experiences/etc.

I just shot one today who had a take on evolution. He pointed out the "missing link" which he said was between Neanderthal and us humans. He says an alien race, who the ancient Summarians called the "Annunaki" came to earth and performed genetic experimentation/breeding with the neanderthals to produce humans for the purpose of having humans mine gold for this alien race. The Annunaki who were from a distant planet, used Mars as a weigh station for this transport of gold. The remains of their Mars city of Cydonia is where we find pyramids and the face on Mars.

Well that is one we may know some more about relatively soon.

longview · February 17, 2014

Here is an interesting article describing paradoxes found in the Big Bang Theory - - -

http://adrianvance.blogspot.com/2014/02/get-it-right-next-time.html

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