A Theory Of Lds Evolution (Add Yours Here)

[thesometimesaint]

Put itthis way- suppose you witnessed Christ healing a blind man. Do you chalk this up as magic or something that is real? Was it all done within scientific means or was it magic?

 

Again you are conflating science with religion. Each has its own separate rules for how it operates. Moreover I can believe God/Christ did something and have no science behind it. Just as I can believe mortal people do things and have no religion behind it.

 

BTW Eyewitness accounts are the lowest form of scientific evidence there is.

[Rob Osborn]

Again you are conflating science with religion. Each has its own separate rules for how it operates. Moreover I can believe God/Christ did something and have no science behind it. Just as I can believe mortal people do things and have no religion behind it.

 

BTW Eyewitness accounts are the lowest form of scientific evidence there is.

Can you please just answer if you believe God works within science or with magic?

[thesometimesaint]

Evolution and ID are both science.

 

So called Intelligent Design is not science.

[thesometimesaint]

Can you please just answer if you believe God works within science or with magic?

 

IOW Do you love your spouse or do you love your children?

 

I am perfectly content to let God use Evolution in his Creation of us and our world.

[Rob Osborn]

IOW Do you love your spouse or do you love your children?

 

I am perfectly content to let God use Evolution in his Creation of us and our world.

Let me ask again. Do you believe God works through any means that are outside of scientific means?

Edited February 20, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[thesometimesaint]

Let me ask again. Do you believe God works through any means that are outside of scientific means?

 

I've already said I don't know how God works. Any such argument would be an argument from ignorance. The natural evidence so far is that he uses Evolution in his Creation of us and our world.

[Rob Osborn]

I've already said I don't know how God works. Any such argument would be an argument from ignorance. The natural evidence so far is that he uses Evolution in his Creation of us and our world.

I believe that God works entirely through scientific means. God is thus part of science.

 

Do you believe it was required that God did something in order for life toi come into existence here?

[thesometimesaint]

I believe that God works entirely through scientific means. God is thus part of science.

 

Do you believe it was required that God did something in order for life toi come into existence here?

 

God isn't part of science, or at least a measurable part of it.

 

He very well could have, but such is outside the rules of science.

 

Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

Galileo

[Rob Osborn]

God isn't part of science, or at least a measurable part of it.

 

He very well could have, but such is outside the rules of science.

 

Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

Galileo

You beat around more bushes than a woodpecker on meth. hehehe.

[Rob Osborn]

God isn't part of science, or at least a measurable part of it.

 

He very well could have, but such is outside the rules of science.

 

Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

Galileo

Does your religious beliefs lead you to believe that the Creator absolutely is the reason for life coming into existence

[emarkp]

You seem to have missed my point. You're going on about Abiogenesis and such and these things weren't even remotely on my mind as I wrote my post.

Instead of quoting my entire post, you should have read it. I wasn't responding to you in that portion.

 

These two approaches for the discovery of truth are so fundamentally different that it simply isn't possible to find common ground unless one is willing to yield to the methodology of the other.

In that case, every thing that can be investigated by science should be -- God's tough enough to stand up to scrutiny. And maybe we mortals should learn to not be too quick to decide what God means when we read scripture. A strict 7-day creation isn't needed, nor a global flood, nor creation of Adam and Even without precursor.

 

Supposedly both participants believe in the teachings and doctrines of the LDS Church, but for some reason one seems to place scientific methodology in a superior position over revelation to prophets, while the other places revelation to prophets in a superior position over the scientific method. Why should this be? Don't the scriptures make it perfectly clear that revelation to prophets is the superior method for the discovery of the most important truths we need to know in order to find true happiness?

Which is why I don't look to science to tell me where my soul is headed, why I'm here, etc. And even though evidence goes back and forth on the value of wine and coffee I keep the Word of Wisdom.

Furthermore, when Russell M. Nelson learned how to operate on hearts, he used the lessons he learned from scientific inquiry. But when he operated on Kimball's heart, he was given revelation about that specific patient. God didn't erase what Elder Nelson had learned, He added to it.

So we investigate what we can with science, always remembering Whose creation it is, and never compromising on moral principles. Thus I believe that Evolution is part of the backstory of creation, but Adam and Eve were real individuals who made an important choice, that required Jesus to atone for all of creation.

[teddyaware]

Instead of quoting my entire post, you should have read it. I wasn't responding to you in that portion.

 

In that case, every thing that can be investigated by science should be -- God's tough enough to stand up to scrutiny. And maybe we mortals should learn to not be too quick to decide what God means when we read scripture. A strict 7-day creation isn't needed, nor a global flood, nor creation of Adam and Even without precursor.

 

Which is why I don't look to science to tell me where my soul is headed, why I'm here, etc. And even though evidence goes back and forth on the value of wine and coffee I keep the Word of Wisdom.

Furthermore, when Russell M. Nelson learned how to operate on hearts, he used the lessons he learned from scientific inquiry. But when he operated on Kimball's heart, he was given revelation about that specific patient. God didn't erase what Elder Nelson had learned, He added to it.

So we investigate what we can with science, always remembering Whose creation it is, and never compromising on moral principles. Thus I believe that Evolution is part of the backstory of creation, but Adam and Eve were real individuals who made an important choice, that required Jesus to atone for all of creation.

As someone who has created several patentable mechanical inventions, I have no aversion to science and its benefits. But when someone boldly modifies the plain meaning of scripture so as to be able to accommodate their beliefs with the theories men, that is a path I refuse to travel. When it comes to the global flood, I will take God at His word before genuflecting before the learning and wisdom of men who so often deny the very existence of the God of miracles.

42 And Enoch also saw Noah, and his family; that the posterity of all the sons of Noah should be saved with a temporal salvation;

43 Wherefore Enoch saw that Noah built an ark; and that the Lord smiled upon it, and held it in his own hand; but upon the residue of the wicked the floods came and swallowed them up. (Moses 7)

50 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.

51 And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the children of Noah; (Moses 7)

27 And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its away upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth.

 

You may be comfortable explaining away the plain and unambiguous meaning of these verses of scripture; I am not. To each his own.

 

Edited February 20, 2014 by teddyaware

[thesometimesaint]

You beat around more bushes than a woodpecker on meth. hehehe.

 

If I were a woodpecker looking for grubs in wood that might not be a bad idea.

Edited February 20, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

Instead of quoting my entire post, you should have read it. I wasn't responding to you in that portion.

 

In that case, every thing that can be investigated by science should be -- God's tough enough to stand up to scrutiny. And maybe we mortals should learn to not be too quick to decide what God means when we read scripture. A strict 7-day creation isn't needed, nor a global flood, nor creation of Adam and Even without precursor.

 

Which is why I don't look to science to tell me where my soul is headed, why I'm here, etc. And even though evidence goes back and forth on the value of wine and coffee I keep the Word of Wisdom.

Furthermore, when Russell M. Nelson learned how to operate on hearts, he used the lessons he learned from scientific inquiry. But when he operated on Kimball's heart, he was given revelation about that specific patient. God didn't erase what Elder Nelson had learned, He added to it.

So we investigate what we can with science, always remembering Whose creation it is, and never compromising on moral principles. Thus I believe that Evolution is part of the backstory of creation, but Adam and Eve were real individuals who made an important choice, that required Jesus to atone for all of creation.

 

Agreed.

[thesometimesaint]

As someone who has created several patentable mechanical inventions, I have no aversion to science and its benefits. But when someone boldly modifies the plain meaning of scripture so as to be able to accommodate their beliefs with the theories men, that is a path I refuse to travel. When it comes to the global flood, I will take God at His word before genuflecting before the learning and wisdom of men who so often deny the very existence of the God of miracles.

42 And Enoch also saw Noah, and his family; that the posterity of all the sons of Noah should be saved with a temporal salvation;

43 Wherefore Enoch saw that Noah built an ark; and that the Lord smiled upon it, and held it in his own hand; but upon the residue of the wicked the floods came and swallowed them up. (Moses 7)

50 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.

51 And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the children of Noah; (Moses 7)

27 And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its away upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth.

 

You may be comfortable explaining away the plain and unambiguous meaning of these verses of scripture, I am not. To each his own.

 

 

OK. Lets work this out together. If a pre-science bronze age person wrote down that he walked up a high mountain and saw the whole world. Would you believe that man or would you believe the science of your own lying eyes that no matter how high the mountain you can't see the whole world, because you know the world is a ball?

Edited February 20, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[teddyaware]

OK. Lets work this out together. If a pre-science bronze age person wrote down that he walked up a high mountain and saw the whole world. Would you believe that man or would you believe the science of your own lying eyes that no matter how high the mountain you can't see the whole world, because you know the world is a ball?

There's one problem with your example: The Book of Moses makes it very clear Enoch was not merely standing on a high mountain and observing his neighborhood from that promontory. Rather, Enoch was taken bodily into heaven to stand in the immediate presence of the Father and the Son, who then gave Enoch a grand tour of all the wicked goings on of the rebellious on earth who refused to repent and receive the Gospel.

23 And after that Zion was taken up into heaven, Enoch beheld, and lo, all the nations of the earth were before him;

24 And there came generation upon generation; and Enoch was high and lifted up, even in the bosom of the Father, and of the Son of Man; and behold, the power of Satan was upon all the face of the earth.

Edited February 20, 2014 by teddyaware

[thesometimesaint]

There's one problem with your example: The Book of Moses makes it very clear Enoch was not merely standing on a high mountain and observing his neighborhood from that promontory. Rather, Enoch was taken bodily into heaven to stand in the immediate presence of the Father and the Son, who then gave Enoch a grand tour of all the wicked goings on of the rebellious on earth who refused to repent and receive the Gospel.

23 And after that Zion was taken up into heaven, Enoch beheld, and lo, all the nations of the earth were before him;

24 And there came generation upon generation; and Enoch was high and lifted up, even in the bosom of the Father, and of the Son of Man; and behold, the power of Satan was upon all the face of the earth.

 

I wasn't talking about Enoch, but of Jesus.

[Stone holm]

There's one problem with your example: The Book of Moses makes it very clear Enoch was not merely standing on a high mountain and observing his neighborhood from that promontory. Rather, Enoch was taken bodily into heaven to stand in the immediate presence of the Father and the Son, who then gave Enoch a grand tour of all the wicked goings on of the rebellious on earth who refused to repent and receive the Gospel.

23 And after that Zion was taken up into heaven, Enoch beheld, and lo, all the nations of the earth were before him;

24 And there came generation upon generation; and Enoch was high and lifted up, even in the bosom of the Father, and of the Son of Man; and behold, the power of Satan was upon all the face of the earth.

Okay, so where do you think Heaven was located?

[teddyaware]

Okay, so where do you think Heaven was located?

Its location, as far as I know, has never been revealed. But according to Moses and Enoch, it's a real place.

[emarkp]

You may be comfortable explaining away the plain and unambiguous meaning of these verses of scripture; I am not. To each his own.

3 Nephi 8

6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth

 

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

 

There was no global earthquake.  Perhaps you shouldn't try to shoehorn your reading of ancient text into modern concepts and language.  Maybe remembering that it was written a long time ago from a different frame of reference will help you understand what "the whole earth" means.

[teddyaware]

3 Nephi 8

6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth

 

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

 

There was no global earthquake.  Perhaps you shouldn't try to shoehorn your reading of ancient text into modern concepts and language.  Maybe remembering that it was written a long time ago from a different frame of reference will help you understand what "the whole earth" means.

The flood was global because God covenanted with Noah that He would never destroy the earth again by flood. If the flood of Noah's day was local, the evidence is clear that God has not kept His solemn promise because destructive localized flooding happens all the time. Just take a look at the recent cataclysmic tsunami in Asia, where hundreds of thousands died, and you'll have to concede I am right.  Also, through the Book of Mormon we know the flood extended as far as ancient America, making the event more than local.

2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this bland it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof; (Ether 13)

[emarkp]

Why do you again quote my post and say nothing related to it? Talk to me about the global earthquake.

[thesometimesaint]

The flood was global because God covenanted with Noah that He would never destroy the earth again by flood. If the flood of Noah's day was local, the evidence is clear that God has not kept His solemn promise because destructive localized flooding happens all the time. Just take a look at the recent cataclysmic tsunami in Asia, where hundreds of thousands died, and you'll have to concede I am right.  Also, through the Book of Mormon we know the flood extended as far as ancient America, making the event more than local.

2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this bland it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof; (Ether 13)

 

I can't think of a habitable place on this planet that hasn't had a flood story at some time in their history. The trouble is that they are from different times, extents, and Gods

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

Edited February 21, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[teddyaware]

Why do you again quote my post and say nothing related to it? Talk to me about the global earthquake.

It's interesting because there never was a time when I read those words in 3rd Nephi and thought they were describing a global earthquake, but come to think of it, the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all do talk about earthquakes attending the death of Christ in both the eastern & western hemispheres and the Isles of the sea:

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (Matthew 27)

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. (Matthew 27)

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth; (3 Nephi 8

12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers. (1 Nephi 19)

55 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men;

56 And he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent; and the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory; (Moses 7)

That about covers it all, doesn't it?

Edited February 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

3 Nephi 8

6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth

 

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

 

There was no global earthquake.  Perhaps you shouldn't try to shoehorn your reading of ancient text into modern concepts and language.  Maybe remembering that it was written a long time ago from a different frame of reference will help you understand what "the whole earth" means.

In this case perhaps it was the whole earth. This happened at the time of Christs death. So what was happening on the other side of the world while the earth was quaking in the Americas? Here-

 

50 ¶Jesus, when he had cried again with ^aa loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

 51 And, behold, the ^aveil of the temple was ^brent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did ^cquake, and the rocks rent; (Mathew 27:50-51)

 

Looks like the earth was quaking also.