teddyaware Posted January 15, 2014 Author Posted January 15, 2014 Fine. I'll rephrase.The evidence for common descent is staggering. If you'd like to convince some of us on this board to doubt the evidence, perhaps you should examine it piece by piece, dismantle it and show how a literal interpretation of genesis, the book of moses, the book of abraham better explains the data. Here is a place to start: http://www.talkorigi...g/faqs/comdesc/Might want to start a new thread. I take it then that you will not be looking at the evidence and providing a point by point refutation. That is fine.I can answer your question though: common decent is not compatible with a literal reading of the scriptures and certainly not compatible with most, if not all, of the public and official statements from Church leaders over the years. This does not perplex me at all. I don't believe the account to be literal, and I don't believe that Church leaders or the scriptures are inerrant.The only problem with jumping to conclusions on all of this is that the scriptures clearly indicate there are going to be many totally unexpected surprises. So I'm going to wait till the promised day when the Lord is going to reveal His secrets. Among those secrets, we are told, are hidden things in the earth of which no man is now aware. What a shocking experience into humility it may be if many of today's hallowed and cherished human theories are turned on their heads. I think it may be much like it was for the wicked Nephites who reasoned in their hearts that it was impossible for the sun to set in the month of April and still be able to walk in fullness of daylight for 12 hours. I'm very much looking forward to the revelation of those surprises; and considering many saints on this board are scientifically inclined, I'm sure they're eagerly awaiting the day when the Lord opens the earth and reveals all His amazing secrets pertaining to the creation of the earth.32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 The only problem with jumping to conclusions on all of this is that the scriptures clearly indicate there are going to be many totally unexpected surprises. So I'm going to wait till the promised day when the Lord is going to reveal His secrets. Among those secrets, we are told, are hidden things in the earth of which no man is now aware. What a shocking experience into humility it may be if many of today's hallowed and cherished human theories are turned on their heads. I think it may be much like it was for the wicked Nephites who reasoned in their hearts that it was impossible for the sun to set in the month of April and still be able to walk in fullness of daylight for 12 hours. I'm very much looking forward to the revelation of those surprises; and considering many saints on this board are scientifically inclined, I'm sure they're eagerly awaiting the day when the Lord opens the earth and reveals all His amazing secrets pertaining to the creation of the earth. 32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things— 33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof— 34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven. Again if you don't want to refute the evidence, that's your prerogative. Until God comes and reveals that germs don't actually cause disease (another one of those suspicious scientific theories out there), I'm going to continue taking my antibiotics, thank you very much. In the same way, I trust that all the evidence that God has left us to look at was not to purposefully lead us astray. While you are correct that many surprises are in store for all of us, until that day I also trust that God wants us to work with what we have. Put another way, the number of verified scientific truths that have come through revelation to prophets is currently standing at zero. If we sit around waiting for God to reveal a cure for cancer, we could be waiting for a long time. Something that Jesus said about not burying our talents might be applicable here.
Rob Osborn Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 See Funny thing happened on the way to the lab.http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html#.Utbx9LTgy_dCouldnt even get past the first few minutes of the video. Poorly put together and heavy laiden with lies. Sorry, you are gonna have to do better than that. Its not even science.
ERayR Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 Nice dodge. Best not to be too sure of yourself. The Jews (God's faithful) didn't recognize him the first time. Not a dodge at all. It was meant to shake the self assured and provoke some introspection.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 Not a dodge at all. It was meant to shake the self assured and provoke some introspection.Were you planning on answering my question then? You seem at least as self assured as I am.
teddyaware Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Again if you don't want to refute the evidence, that's your prerogative. Until God comes and reveals that germs don't actually cause disease (another one of those suspicious scientific theories out there), I'm going to continue taking my antibiotics, thank you very much. In the same way, I trust that all the evidence that God has left us to look at was not to purposefully lead us astray. While you are correct that many surprises are in store for all of us, until that day I also trust that God wants us to work with what we have.Put another way, the number of verified scientific truths that have come through revelation to prophets is currently standing at zero. If we sit around waiting for God to reveal a cure for cancer, we could be waiting for a long time. Something that Jesus said about not burying our talents might be applicable here.Your post causes me to wonder: If one is inspired of the Spirit to believe the word of the Lord, and in the prophecies found in the scriptures, there is a great and sure hope that God Himself is going to cure cancer. That coming cure is oft spoken of and testified to in the Standard Works, And for those who have received a hope in Christ, there is no doubt but that God is going to fulfill that promise to cure cancer, and a whole host of many other debilitating and deadly diseases as well. The cure of which I speak is called the resurrection of the dead. With this cure, millions upon millions of formerly disease ravaged bodies will be revived and made much better than new. And the mere fact that there is going to be a glorious resurrection -- a phenomenon that's way out of step with the thinking, logic and theories of organic evolution -- should give any Latter-day Saint pause before jumping to conclusions as to how the Lord created the world and its creatures. I hope I'm wrong on this, but I seem to discern there's an apparent lack of focus on and celebration of the miraculous power of God by some of those of scientific inclination. This seeming lack of spiritual focus causes me to hesitate when it comes to possibly relying on them to be numbered among my guides in the discovery of truth. Perhaps a lot of frustration experienced on boards like this could be avoided by just asking for an answer to the following simple yes-or-no question. Do you believe in the literal bodily resurrection of the dead? An answer of 'no' would cause me, in many cases, to simply move on. An answer of 'yes' would likely allow the doors of fruitful dialogue to remain open. Edited January 16, 2014 by teddyaware 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Your post causes me to wonder: If one is inspired of the Spirit to believe the word of the Lord, and in the prophecies found in the scriptures, there is a great and sure hope that God Himself is going to cure cancer. That coming cure is oft spoken of and testified to in the Standard Works, And for those who have received a hope in Christ, there is no doubt but that God is going to fulfill that promise to cure cancer, and a whole host of many other debilitating and deadly diseases as well. The cure of which I speak is called the resurrection of the dead. With this cure, millions upon millions of formerly disease ravaged bodies will be revived and made much better than new. And the mere fact that there is going to be a glorious resurrection -- a phenomenon that's way out of step with the thinking, logic and theories of organic evolution -- should give any Latter-day Saint pause before jumping to conclusions as to how the Lord created the world and its creatures. I hope I'm wrong on this, but I seem to discern there's an apparent lack of focus on and celebration of the miraculous power of God by some of those of scientific inclination.The miracles that I see are the small everyday miracles of those seeking guidance in helping their fellowman. Those that cloth the hungry, give of their substance to the poor, those who seek the spirit in counseling and comforting their neighbors, friend and family. The miracles of turning water to wine, bringing back the dead, feeding the five thousand, are unknown to me and largely irrelevant to the way that I live my life. I don't wait for the Lord's miracles, I seek to be the Lord's miracle (though I fall short in most instances). This seeming lack of spiritual focus causes me to hesitate when it comes to possibly relying on them to be numbered among my guides in the discovery of truth. Perhaps a lot of frustration experienced on boards like this could be avoided by just asking for an answer to the following simple yes-or-no question. Do you believe in the literal bodily resurrection of the dead? An answer of 'no' would cause me, in many cases, to simply move on. An answer of 'yes' would likely allow the doors of fruitful dialogue to remain open. You'll get a better answer from your other debating partners who seem to me to be more orthodox in their belief. For me I hope for and have faith in a future resurrection. But this hope again is largely irrelevant to how I live my life. With out without resurrection, I seek to serve God in whatever way I can looking through my glass darkly. 1
teddyaware Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) The miracles that I see are the small everyday miracles of those seeking guidance in helping their fellowman. Those that cloth the hungry, give of their substance to the poor, those who seek the spirit in counseling and comforting their neighbors, friend and family. The miracles of turning water to wine, bringing back the dead, feeding the five thousand, are unknown to me and largely irrelevant to the way that I live my life. I don't wait for the Lord's miracles, I seek to be the Lord's miracle (though I fall short in most instances).You'll get a better answer from your other debating partners who seem to me to be more orthodox in their belief. For me I hope for and have faith in a future resurrection. But this hope again is largely irrelevant to how I live my life. With out without resurrection, I seek to serve God in whatever way I can looking through my glass darkly.Excellent response! The only issue I have is that the scriptures make a major point of the fact that it's very important for the followers of God to believe He is a God of very big and dramatic miracles, not just the littler ones (even though in the end I do believe both kinds are equally important). I believe one of the reasons why the Lord wants His prophets to frequently drive home the fact that He is a God of great miracles is because if one can truly believe in the possibility of great miracles, we can with greater faith, hope and confidence believe they can cause the smaller and equally important day-to-day miracles to come to pass as well. This is Mormonism 101. Edited January 16, 2014 by teddyaware
Tacenda Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Teddyaware, I wonder if we just don't see the miracles. Who knows what we would have had happen without them, and how much divine intervention occurs without our being aware of them at all. Plus, I totally and emphatically believe there are angels in our midst that help the Divine.
teddyaware Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 Teddyaware, I wonder if we just don't see the miracles. Who knows what we would have had happen without them, and how much divine intervention occurs without our being aware of them at all. Plus, I totally and emphatically believe there are angels in our midst that help the Divine. And I must say I am in 100% agreement with this! Excellent! I would go on an on about this but I want to eat my dinner, now three hours late. But I will say all life and even existence itself are miracles of the highest order. And I know for a fact guardian angels are real.
Calm Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) But in spite of all you say the burden of the prophets is that knowledge by revelation from the Holy Ghost is by far the greatest and most beneficial way of obtaining knowledge.Beneficial to our souls and out eternal destinies perhaps, not sure it is the most beneficial when it comes to fixing my laptop, getting food prepared properly on the table or getting a solid roof over our heads, clean water to drink, etc, etc.What if the scriptures don't even touch on a specific area of knowledge or if God has not chosen to use revelation to expand knowledge in a specific area but encouraged or left men to find other ways? Knowledge is not one coherent mass of facts and processes...at least not yet. The experience of knowledge about the material world is very different that how one gathers information and knowledge socially, emotionally or even personally. And simply because one adds in spiritual knowledge to the mix, doesn't imply to me that suddenly all those other forms of knowledge have somehow lost their value and now we should only concern ourselves with revealed knowlege as worth our time.There are a huge variety of tools that can be used in the search for knowledge, some can be genelarized in their use, others not so much. What is most effective and efficient varies as well on the type of knowledge we are seeking. God didn't give us eyes and hands and a brain that can manipulate logic and predict and create new ideas just so all we should do is sit and pray, maybe study scriptures if we live in a day and age that has them available and then wait on revelation to provide us here only information that we see as having any value.Nor is revelation some short cut. One's mind may be exposed to revelation and while in the Presence of the Lord even comprehend it, but when back in the mundane world, is all revealed knowledge capable of being retained or communicated....and if one cannot communicate revelation no matter what subject because it is beyond one's own level of comprehension, it surely isn't being added to the knowledge base of humanity. One would be lucky if it did anything besides fade over the years so all that one has left is a very small moment where one knew one was face to face with God....a great blessing to the individual, but not to humanity as a whole.There is a reason why humans go through many years of school with lots of repetition and simply do not wait until their brain has reached a needed level of development and then sit down and read textbooks...or have some other sort of knowledge dump into the brain. Learning only works as a joint effort of many forms, something is great and beneficial if it changes the individual for the better, brings him or her closer to God, revelation can do that, so can being a parent or simply living day to day. What we do with the knowledge received is what makes it great, what makes it beneficial. Edited January 17, 2014 by calmoriah 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 Couldnt even get past the first few minutes of the video. Poorly put together and heavy laiden with lies. Sorry, you are gonna have to do better than that. Its not even science. It is not a video. It is a redaction from a report from the Proceedings National Association of Science of the United States of America. One of the most recognized scientific organizations in the world.
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 It is not a video. It is a redaction from a report from the Proceedings National Association of Science of the United States of America. One of the most recognized scientific organizations in the world.You posted a video also in that post, go back and see it. Pretty much all evolutionists videos rehash the same jargon constantly talking about "facts" and "evidence" that they say leave no doubt. Its all part of their built up lies because in truth they have no facts, just a lot of opinion and conjecture.
ERayR Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 Were you planning on answering my question then? You seem at least as self assured as I am. Like some of the others I could and would testify to what I observed.
Stone holm Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Let us assume you are standing out of doors, among a multitude of others, and the Saviour descends from the sky right in front of your eyes. After he touches ground, you and some others are fortunate enough to be positioned in very close proximity to Him, close enough for all 5 of your empirical senses to be actively engaged in what is about to take place. The Lord stands before the empty table and then miraculously produces bread and wine for the administration of the sacrament, seemingly out of thin air, just as He did in 3 Nephi 20. So... 1. As someone with a scientific background or inclination, would be able to solemnly testify to present and future generations that the Lord did indeed miraculously produce the bread and wine? Or... Would your insistence on scientific methodology prohibit you from testifying to the reality of the miracle because the demonstration didn't satisfy enough scientific criteria* ? * e.g. strictly controlled conditions and environment, repeatability factor, etc.Are you using the Mormon definition of miracle meaning the application of natural laws in a manner not yet understood by science?
Freedom Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 You posted a video also in that post, go back and see it. Pretty much all evolutionists videos rehash the same jargon constantly talking about "facts" and "evidence" that they say leave no doubt. Its all part of their built up lies because in truth they have no facts, just a lot of opinion and conjecture.Yes Rob, the entire scientific community is involved in a great conspiracy. Even the Dean of science at BYU is involved. He has deceived even the prophet of God and only you know the truth.
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Are you using the Mormon definition of miracle meaning the application of natural laws in a manner not yet understood by science? Why of course I am. Can't think of miracles in any other way. Miracles are always perfectly rational, but rarely understood by fallen mortals. Miracles are merely a manifestation of the laws of God in action. Edited January 18, 2014 by teddyaware
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 You posted a video also in that post, go back and see it. Pretty much all evolutionists videos rehash the same jargon constantly talking about "facts" and "evidence" that they say leave no doubt. Its all part of their built up lies because in truth they have no facts, just a lot of opinion and conjecture. I've done a bit of posting. However that particular link is not to a video. Address what I actually say and not some straw man argument I don't. I have proposed that you put your claims to the test, using actual scientific means, by digging up a fully modern human skeleton in a layer of previously undisturbed Precambrian dirt. That you refuse to prove your point is telling.
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Why of course I am. Can't think of miracles in any other way. Miracles are always perfectly rational, but rarely understood by fallen mortals. Miracles are merely a manifestation of the laws of God in action. So if we understand how something works it isn't a miracle?
Rob Osborn Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 I've done a bit of posting. However that particular link is not to a video. Address what I actually say and not some straw man argument I don't. I have proposed that you put your claims to the test, using actual scientific means, by digging up a fully modern human skeleton in a layer of previously undisturbed Precambrian dirt. That you refuse to prove your point is telling. How can I go out and dig up a human skeleton from rock when the rock is dated by the skeleton of the human found? That circular answer is whats wrong with science. Either find a different dating method or stay out of the guessing business
Rob Osborn Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 See Funny thing happened on the way to the lab. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html#.Utbx9LTgy_d Are you saying that this video you posted you really didn't post?
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) So if we understand how something works it isn't a miracle?Well, to me existence and all that happens in existence is a miracle. But in the sense of miracles found in the scriptures, I suppose it isn't enough to know theoretically the mechanics of how any particular miracle is caused to happen -- there must also be someone who is able able to perform the actual act of that particular miracle. The people who lived in the Holy Land during the Lord's ministry knew faith (belief without doubt) could cause the blind to see and the deaf to hear, but few possessed the degree of faith needed to make such miracles happen. So knowing the mechanics of a miracle doesn't necessarily rob the miracle of its wonder and uniqueness. But I would suppose that for the Lord, raising the dead isn't as wondrous to Him as it is for us. So one wonders if from God's own perspective He considers the raising of the dead to be a miracle. Edited January 18, 2014 by teddyaware 1
Stone holm Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Well, to me existence and all that happens in existence is a miracle. But in the sense of miracles found in the scriptures, I suppose it isn't enough to know theoretically the mechanics of how any particular miracle is caused to happen -- there must also be someone who is able able to perform the actual act of that particular miracle. The people who lived in the Holy Land during the Lord's ministry knew faith (belief without doubt) could cause the blind to see and the deaf to hear, but few possessed the degree of faith needed to make such miracles happen. So knowing the mechanics of a miracle doesn't necessarily rob the miracle of its wonder and uniqueness. But I would suppose that for the Lord, raising the dead isn't as wondrous to Him as it is for us. So one wonders if from God's own perspective He considers the raising of the dead to be a miracle.Why would God perceive anything as a miracle?
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Why would God perceive anything as a miracle? Perhaps He wouldn't. But since existence and life seem to be such unlikely possibilities in the first place, He may at least have a very deep sense of appreciation and wonder for it all. Edited January 18, 2014 by teddyaware
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Are you saying that this video you posted you really didn't post? No I am saying that you responded to my link to a written science article as a video. It is not.
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