thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Well, to me existence and all that happens in existence is a miracle. But in the sense of miracles found in the scriptures, I suppose it isn't enough to know theoretically the mechanics of how any particular miracle is caused to happen -- there must also be someone who is able able to perform the actual act of that particular miracle. The people who lived in the Holy Land during the Lord's ministry knew faith (belief without doubt) could cause the blind to see and the deaf to hear, but few possessed the degree of faith needed to make such miracles happen. So knowing the mechanics of a miracle doesn't necessarily rob the miracle of its wonder and uniqueness. But I would suppose that for the Lord, raising the dead isn't as wondrous to Him as it is for us. So one wonders if from God's own perspective He considers the raising of the dead to be a miracle. I have no problem with miracles. I've used the miracle of eye glasses since I was 13 years old. I'm terrible near sighted without them. The last several years I've had to go to bifocals. So I'm near sighted and far sighted at the same time. So to me they are a miracle even though I know how they are made, and I use them every day.
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) I have no problem with miracles. I've used the miracle of eye glasses since I was 13 years old. I'm terrible near sighted without them. The last several years I've had to go to bifocals. So I'm near sighted and far sighted at the same time. So to me they are a miracle even though I know how they are made, and I use them every day. In the Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck wrote the notable line, "all that lives is holy." For our purposes I might say, "all of life is a miracle." I do believe that. To be honest with you, I'm in a constant state of shock that anything at all actually exists. To me, it seems more reasonable to think there should be nothing at all but nothingness. Edited January 18, 2014 by teddyaware
Stone holm Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Why would God perceive anything as a miracle?Hm, perhaps if I make exaltation He might consider that a miracle.
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 In the Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck wrote the notable line, "all that lives is holy." For our purposes I might say, "all of life is a miracle." I do believe that. To be honest with you, I'm in a constant state of shock that anything at all actually exists. To me, it seems more reasonable to think there should be nothing at all but nothingness. I quite agree. Back about 1/millionth of a second after the Big Bang there existed just two types of matter. Matter as we know it and Anti-matter in pretty much equivalence. A small percentage of one percent more matter as we know it made everything we can see.
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 Hm, perhaps if I make exaltation He might consider that a miracle. So you answered your own question. Good for you!
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 I quite agree. Back about 1/millionth of a second after the Big Bang there existed just two types of matter. Matter as we know it and Anti-matter in pretty much equivalence. A small percentage of one percent more matter as we know it made everything we can see. Did God exist before the big bang?
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Did God exist before the big bang? Don't know. My guess would be yes. IE; There is a train of thought that we are actually in just one of an infinite number of universes dating back infinitely(A Multiverse) I haven't seen a whole lot of scientific support for that idea, but nothing absolutely contradicting it either. From a religious perspective it does allow for God before the Big Bang.
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 There was no "Big Bang" D&C 93:29 That doesn't mean what you think it means.
Freedom Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 There was no "Big Bang" D&C 93:29I do not see the connection here. You do understand what the big bang is?
Stone holm Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Did God exist before the big bang?That depends on what you think of the Church's teachings regarding the King Follett Sermon, Snow's Couplet, and that Heavenly Father lives nigh unto Kolob. If you believe that Heavenly Father had a Heavenly Father, then the logical assumption is that He is living with His Heavenly siblings on that planet just like those who make the Celestial Kingdom will live with their spiritual siblings on the Earth after it is celestialized. Since Nigh unto Kolob is in this universe, if the Big Bang is correct, not saying it Is, then the answer would have to be that God, if we mean Our Heavenly Father , did not exist as such before the Big Bang .
Calm Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Are you saying that this video you posted you really didn't post?Just click on the link below the video that he provided. You will see what he referred to.
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Perhaps He wouldn't. But since existence and life seem to be such unlikely possibilities in the first place, He may at least have a very deep sense of appreciation and wonder for it all.It seems odd that someone who exists would find it unlikely that he exists. In fact existence is so common that I have never in my life seen something which doesn't exist. But I guess I'm weird. 2
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 In the Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck wrote the notable line, "all that lives is holy." For our purposes I might say, "all of life is a miracle." I do believe that. To be honest with you, I'm in a constant state of shock that anything at all actually exists. To me, it seems more reasonable to think there should be nothing at all but nothingness.Giving it a name makes it something. So nothingness exists
Stone holm Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Giving it a name makes it something. So nothingness existsNot sure it does under Mormon teachings.
teddyaware Posted January 19, 2014 Author Posted January 19, 2014 Giving it a name makes it something. So nothingness exists Not according to 2 Nephi 2. We learn therein that without God nothing at all would exist. Even the word nothing would not exist because there would be nothing and nobody around to even make up the word.
teddyaware Posted January 19, 2014 Author Posted January 19, 2014 It seems odd that someone who exists would find it unlikely that he exists. In fact existence is so common that I have never in my life seen something which doesn't exist. But I guess I'm weird. I find existence the greatest of all miracles because somehow everything exists without anybody actually creating the stuff that does exist. It simply is, and that blows my mind.
Stone holm Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Not according to 2 Nephi 2. We learn therein that without God nothing at all would exist. Even the word nothing would not exist because there would be nothing and nobody around to even make up the word.Interesting, but somewhat pointless observation since God exists. Nephi could not have actually had any clue about what would or would not have existed without the existence of God. What he was really focusing in on was a philosophic point and talking primarily about this Creation. Whether Nephi even knew about the revelations that would come forth in the fullness of time about the nature of God as a exalted man is probably doubtful.
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Not sure it does under Mormon teachings.I see Please reference all the scriptures which speak of nothingness so I can become better educated on the Mormon view of nothingness.
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 I find existence the greatest of all miracles because somehow everything exists without anybody actually creating the stuff that does exist. It simply is, and that blows my mind.So do you commonly see instances of people creating things from nothing, so that it blows your mind when someone doesn't have to create things from nothing? 1
teddyaware Posted January 19, 2014 Author Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Interesting, but somewhat pointless observation since God exists. Nephi could not have actually had any clue about what would or would not have existed without the existence of God. What he was really focusing in on was a philosophic point and talking primarily about this Creation. Whether Nephi even knew about the revelations that would come forth in the fullness of time about the nature of God as a exalted man is probably doubtful. [/quotI] I'm well aware Lehi was speaking theoretically in this instance. But at least his theoretical ramblings enabled me to answer the question with more authority than I might have otherwise. Edited January 19, 2014 by teddyaware
teddyaware Posted January 19, 2014 Author Posted January 19, 2014 So do you commonly see instances of people creating things from nothing, so that it blows your mind when someone doesn't have to create things from nothing? Dude! My brain just twisted an ankle!
Bikeemikey Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Perhaps He wouldn't. But since existence and life seem to be such unlikely possibilities in the first place, He may at least have a very deep sense of appreciation and wonder for it all. I think the word your looking for is reverence.
urroner Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Giving it a name makes it something. So nothingness existsIn high school, I took a class on oriental studies. It was a fun class. Even though there were only about 250 kids in the high school, we had an oriental studies. We studied the culture of the Orient and even got into some of the religions which started there.We were studying Taoism one day and the teacher, Ace Williams, said that many Taoists and practitioners of other oriental religions believe that nothing is good and that this belief is true and he left it there. In fact he left the class of a couple of minutes and when he came back, everybody in the class thought he was as idiot. How could he ever believe such bilge. Something has to be good.Since I was the one who opened my mouth and told him in all my wisdom and acumen that he had to be a loon to believe that, he simply told me that if I didn't believe that nothing was good, that I would have the opportunity to defend my belief in two days. He gave me ten minutes on that day to show that he was wrong. No problemo Señor Williams. I've got this. I did give a great defense of why something is good and why the "nothing is good" belief was rubbish. I was awesome.Mr. Williams told me that he was convinced through and through that something was good, but he still believed that nothing was good also. Now I was completely confused; he was talking total garbage.He then said that he had forgotten his drinking cup which he always had in class and he asked me if I would be good enough to go get it for him and to also fill it up with water. As I was leaving, he had this "gotcha" grin on his face. What trap had I walked into? When I got his cup, it had been filled up with plastic and was now ruined. There was no way to get that plastic out.I brought him the cup, showed it to him, and explained that the cup was now ruined.He asked me with a huge grin if the cup would be ruined if there was nothing in it. Nope, that would be awesome and why is he smiling.The principle and my bishop who was another teacher, were standing in back of the library where the class was held, and they were also grinning. I knew I had be set up, but I couldn't figure out why. He again asked me if nothing was in the cup, would that be good. Sure, what's your point. I was none too bright back then.He finally rolled his eyes and asked me to sit down with the rest of the class. He then said that the teaching of "nothing is good" is not the teaching of "everything is bad." He said that sometimes what we call nothing, or emptiness, is good. He was talking about the "object" nothing. It finally started to sink in and some 40+ years later, what I started to learn that day in class is still sinking in.Mr. M, there is nothingness and it really exists.As far as Nephi and his use of God as proof what what he taught, from my POV, using the existence God as proof in logical argument doesn't work very good, but maybe it did in the culture of Nephi since very few probably questioned the existence of God and so maybe Nephi was using this logical mindset to prove his point. 3
changed Posted January 19, 2014 Posted January 19, 2014 Not according to 2 Nephi 2. We learn therein that without God nothing at all would exist. Even the word nothing would not exist because there would be nothing and nobody around to even make up the word.For it must needs be, that there is an aopposition in all things....I always thought of 2 Nephi 2 as being another explanation of the theory of relativity.... no up without down, no "that which acts" without "that which is acted upon", etc.
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