Virtue

[cshaw]

Can anyone give me some perspective on Luke 8:46?  From an LDS perspective, what Virtue did Jesus percieve had left him when he was touched?  Almost everything I can find, from LDS sources, seems to focus heavily on the virtue of chastity.  I assume the virtue Jesus felt was a loss of power within himself?  The power was gained by being the perfect example of living all the virtues combined? And there is some link between virtue, healing and Melchizedek Priesthood?  Can anyone help enlighten me on this? 

[ERayR]

Can anyone give me some perspective on Luke 8:46?  From an LDS perspective, what Virtue did Jesus percieve had left him when he was touched?  Almost everything I can find, from LDS sources, seems to focus heavily on the virtue of chastity.  I assume the virtue Jesus felt was a loss of power within himself?  The power was gained by being the perfect example of living all the virtues combined? And there is some link between virtue, healing and Melchizedek Priesthood?  Can anyone help enlighten me on this? 

 

I do not think it was a loss of power but rather a flow of power.

[CV75]

Can anyone give me some perspective on Luke 8:46?  From an LDS perspective, what Virtue did Jesus percieve had left him when he was touched?  Almost everything I can find, from LDS sources, seems to focus heavily on the virtue of chastity.  I assume the virtue Jesus felt was a loss of power within himself?  The power was gained by being the perfect example of living all the virtues combined? And there is some link between virtue, healing and Melchizedek Priesthood?  Can anyone help enlighten me on this? 

To me, the phrase "virtue is gone out of me" simply means that heavenly power went forth from Him to bless the woman. "Virtue" has several meanings, and this is one of them.

[Palerider]

Can anyone give me some perspective on Luke 8:46?  From an LDS perspective, what Virtue did Jesus percieve had left him when he was touched?  Almost everything I can find, from LDS sources, seems to focus heavily on the virtue of chastity.  I assume the virtue Jesus felt was a loss of power within himself?  The power was gained by being the perfect example of living all the virtues combined? And there is some link between virtue, healing and Melchizedek Priesthood?  Can anyone help enlighten me on this? 

 

I think in a broader perspective "virtue" can mean goodness or righteousness in general.

 

The dictionary uses these terms: "moral excellence; goodness; righteousness."

 

Having good morals doesn't necessarily have to relate only to chastity, although that is included. Being honest, trustworthy, equitable, etc. are all moral values in my book.

 

So, if one replaced "virtue" with the power of "goodness" going out of one's being, I don't think that would be far off the mark.

[Palerider]

I do not think it was a loss of power but rather a flow of power.

 

Semantics.......... but I agree.

[Kenngo1969]

Can anyone give me some perspective on Luke 8:46?  From an LDS perspective, what Virtue did Jesus percieve had left him when he was touched?  Almost everything I can find, from LDS sources, seems to focus heavily on the virtue of chastity.  I assume the virtue Jesus felt was a loss of power within himself?  The power was gained by being the perfect example of living all the virtues combined? And there is some link between virtue, healing and Melchizedek Priesthood?  Can anyone help enlighten me on this? 

The footnote to Luke 8:46 at LDS.org says that the word rendered virtue in English is from the Greek word for power.  I somewhat disagree with ERayR (a dangerous proposition, to be sure! ).  If power continuously "flows" to Christ as an omnipotent being (but even that proposition, if true must have a qualifier: compare Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48), then a "fluctuation" of a nanosecond might simply cause him to say, "Meh!  Felt a little blip there.  Sorry.  What were you saying?"  I think the woman's great faith caused a more noticeable change in Him.  Otherwise, He might not have felt to seek her out nor to commend her great faith.  But, like many other things that happened in His ministry, this, too, was a teaching moment for The Greatest Teacher.  My $0.02, actual value $0.000000000001.

 

P.S.:  And Christ isn't the most virtuous, most powerful being "by a mere nose," as it were, such that a "loss" of power (if you want to call it that) put Him in momentary danger of "falling into second place" to whomever is "second-most-virtuous" and "second-most-powerful."  Christ is the most virtuous, most powerful being by a wide margin.  So I don't think it's too troublesome to talk of Him having a momentary loss/fluctuation, as it were.

 

P.P.S.:  And what about "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 4:10) and "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me" (Matthew 27:46)?  Those sound like much more than mere blips or interruptions in the flow, though, again, I doubt Christ ever was in danger of "falling into second place."  

Edited December 31, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[ERayR]

Semantics.......... but I agree.

 

 

If I am not clear it is that I think his power can flow forth without being diminished.

[Stroopwafel]

Maybe it was virtú à la Machiavelli?

[Palerider]

The footnote to Luke 8:46 at LDS.org says that the word rendered virtue in English is from the Greek word for power.  I somewhat disagree with ERayR (a dangerous proposition, to be sure! ).  If power continuously "flows" to Christ as an omnipotent being (but even that proposition, if true must have a qualifier: compare Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48), then a "fluctuation" of a nanosecond would simply cause him to say, "Meh!  Felt a little blip there.  Sorry.  What were you saying?"  I think the woman's great faith caused a more noticeable change in Him.  Otherwise, He might not have felt to seek her out nor to commend her great faith.  But, like many other things that happened in His ministry, this, too, was a teaching moment for The Greatest Teacher.  My $0.02, actual value $0.000000000001.

 

P.S.:  And Christ isn't the most virtuous, most powerful being "by a mere nose," as it were, such that a "loss" of power (if you want to call it that) put Him in momentary danger of "falling into second place" to whomever is "second-most-virtuous" and "second-most-powerful."  Christ is the most virtuous, most powerful being by a wide margin.  So I don't think it's too troublesome to talk of Him having a momentary loss/fluctuation, as it were.

 

Have you considered that rather than having power "flow" to Him, He might actually BE the source of the power?

 

Just a thought.......

[Palerider]

If I am not clear it is that I think his power can flow forth without being diminished.

 

I agree. 100%

 

It was cshaw's semantics I referred to.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Palerider

[Kenngo1969]

I think in a broader perspective "virtue" can mean goodness or righteousness in general. ... 

 

True; and virtue (as used in that sense) and power are related.  Consider Doctrine & Covenants 121:45 and Hebrews 4:16, which I believe, taken together, make explicit the concept that goodness and power are related.  Hebrews 4:16 says, "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help us in our time of need."  And Doctrine & Covenants 121:45 says, in part, "Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God."  One of the things I take from that is if we do our best to do the things God asks of us, we won't be hesitant or afraid to ask Him for help when we need it.  (Which is why I'm so hesitant to do that!  Wait.  What? Oh.  Never mind ...) 

[cshaw]

Is Jesus's power utimately the Melchezedek priesthood?  A higher preisthood?  If we live a more virtous life does this not increase our effectiveness while exercising the Melchezedek Preisthood, thus having the potential for the same power to flow from within us while giving blessings? Or are these powers entirely different?

[Kenngo1969]

Have you considered that rather than having power "flow" to Him, He might actually BE the source of the power?

 

Just a thought.......

Yes.  I don't discount that.  But at the time this incident is reported to have occurred, it should be remembered that even Christ, great as He is, and even though He had "all but attained" Godhood, still had one thing left to do to make that process complete: compare Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48.  And Christ attained Godhood by following His Father perfectly (see John 8:29).

[Kenngo1969]

Is Jesus's power utimately the Melchezedek priesthood?  A higher preisthood?  If we live a more virtous life does this not increase our effectiveness while exercising the Melchezedek Preisthood, thus having the potential for the same power to flow from within us while giving blessings? Or are these powers entirely different?

Your mileage may vary, and others may disagree and/or label this "the gospel according to Ken," so take it for what it's worth, but yes, I believe virtue effectuates Priesthood power, which is one of the reasons why (in fact, it may be the main reason why), if we attempt to exercise our Priesthood while engaging in any of the "unvirtuous" acts listed in verse 37 of Doctrine & Covenants 121, the Lord says "Amen" (or in other words, "the end") to "the Priesthood of [any man who attempts to do so]."

[CV75]

If I am not clear it is that I think his power can flow forth without being diminished.

 

 

I think D&C 121: 45-46 scripture is about that, which Jesus possesses fully and could never run out of: “Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it [the righteous dominion, as opposed to verse 39] shall flow unto thee forever and ever.”

 

Also, the imgae of "living water" brings to my mind that it is from a fountain that never runs empty.

Edited December 31, 2013 by CV75

[CV75]

The footnote to Luke 8:46 at LDS.org says that the word rendered virtue in English is from the Greek word for power.  I somewhat disagree with ERayR (a dangerous proposition, to be sure! ).  If power continuously "flows" to Christ as an omnipotent being (but even that proposition, if true must have a qualifier: compare Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48), then a "fluctuation" of a nanosecond might simply cause him to say, "Meh!  Felt a little blip there.  Sorry.  What were you saying?"  I think the woman's great faith caused a more noticeable change in Him.  Otherwise, He might not have felt to seek her out nor to commend her great faith.  But, like many other things that happened in His ministry, this, too, was a teaching moment for The Greatest Teacher.  My $0.02, actual value $0.000000000001.

 

P.S.:  And Christ isn't the most virtuous, most powerful being "by a mere nose," as it were, such that a "loss" of power (if you want to call it that) put Him in momentary danger of "falling into second place" to whomever is "second-most-virtuous" and "second-most-powerful."  Christ is the most virtuous, most powerful being by a wide margin.  So I don't think it's too troublesome to talk of Him having a momentary loss/fluctuation, as it were.

 

P.P.S.:  And what about "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 4:10) and "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me" (Matthew 27:46)?  Those sound like much more than mere blips or interruptions in the flow, though, again, I doubt Christ ever was in danger of "falling into second place."  

I don't see His recognition that power flowed out from Him as a "blip" or "fluctuation", but a recognition of a kindred spirit in the woman, by virtue of her virtue cleaving to His (see D&C 88:40 and Mark 5:34; Luke 8:48).

[Palerider]

Yes.  I don't discount that.  But at the time this incident is reported to have occurred, it should be remembered that even Christ, great as He is, and even though He had "all but attained" Godhood, still had one thing left to do to make that process complete: compare Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48.  And Christ attained Godhood by following His Father perfectly (see John 8:29).

 

Yeah, I'm leaning farther away, (in some respects, not all) from the LDS version of how the Godhead works.

 

I give the BofM no credence whatsoever as being a reliable canon, although occasionaly it does get some things right.

 

I have to give John 1:1 the binding authority regarding Christ's Godhood.

[JLHPROF]

I believe this shows that there is energy involved in spiritual actions, and that Christ felt the power flow out of him.

There are two stories in Church history that I believe are related to this loss of "virtue" or spiritual energy:

 

 

After the vision closed, Sidney was completely exhausted and had to lie down on the couch. Seeing Sidney’s pallor, Joseph remarked with a smile on his face: “Well, Brother Sidney is not as used to it as I am.” (Juvenile Instructor, vol. 27 [May 15, 1892], pp. 303–4.)

AND

 

At a church meeting held on the evening of 13 March 1843, the Prophet blessed another group of children. Of that occasion, he wrote:

“Twenty-seven children were blessed, nineteen of whom I blessed myself, with great fervency. Virtue went out of me, and my strength left me. …

“[The next day] Elder Jedediah M. Grant enquired of me the cause of my turning pale and losing strength last night while blessing children. I told him that I saw that Lucifer would exert his influence to destroy the children that I was blessing, and I strove with all the faith and spirit that I had to seal upon them a blessing that would secure their lives upon the earth; and so much virtue went out of me into the children, that I became weak, from which I have not yet recovered; and I referred to the case of the woman touching the hem of the garment of Jesus. (Luke 8).” (History of the Church, 5:303.)

[Palerider]

I believe this shows that there is energy involved in spiritual actions, and that Christ felt the power flow out of him.

There are two stories in Church history that I believe are related to this loss of "virtue" or spiritual energy:

 

AND

 

Well.......

 

I did a quick search and found these:

 

1 Kings 17:17-24

Acts 3: 6-11

Acts 5:14-16

Acts 8:5-8

Acts 14: 8-11

Acts 20: 9-12

Acts 28: 7-10

 

 

None of these mention anything like what Joseph is describing here.

 

I have to go with the scriptures on this one..........

[JLHPROF]

Well.......

 

I did a quick search and found these:

 

1 Kings 17:17-24

Acts 3: 6-11

Acts 5:14-16

Acts 8:5-8

Acts 14: 8-11

Acts 20: 9-12

Acts 28: 7-10

 

 

None of these mention anything like what Joseph is describing here.

 

I have to go with the scriptures on this one..........

 

Yes, but the original scripture Luke 8:46 featuring Christ does reference what Joseph is describing here...so I will also go with the scriptures AND Joseph since they agree as always.

[CV75]

I believe this shows that there is energy involved in spiritual actions, and that Christ felt the power flow out of him.

There are two stories in Church history that I believe are related to this loss of "virtue" or spiritual energy:

 

AND

While Jesus did tend to get tired, and even fatigued and exhausted as a result of His mortal condition and the demands of His eternal mission to mankind, I’m not sure that we can say His virtue (divine spiritual power) was ever reduced or compromised. The work of God continually flows forth from the wells of righteousness, but where the mortal flesh is weak, the body needs to rejuvenate and rest.

 

The mortal body’s constant nourishment comes from rest and food; its immortal nourishment (“quickening”) comes from the virtue (light, truth, intelligence, etc.) it possesses, which defines its kingdom of glory. When Jesus was going about His Father’s business, His virtue only increased (how could it not as He constantly made Himself and His virtue available to people like the woman who touched the hem of His garment?), even though His bodily strength could diminish. I think this is what Joseph is describing from his experience.

 

As far as “getting used to it,” Moses (as Sidney) had a similar physical reaction to his conversation with God. I see this is a function of receiving grace for grace until a fullness is received. In my mind, a “fullness” is immortality for the physical body and as much glory as one is willing to receive (ideally exaltation).

[mfbukowski]

Semantics.......... but I agree.

Yep as always you have to understand that words are always ambiguous especially in translation.

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, I'm leaning farther away, (in some respects, not all) from the LDS version of how the Godhead works.

 

I give the BofM no credence whatsoever as being a reliable canon, although occasionaly it does get some things right.

 

I have to give John 1:1 the binding authority regarding Christ's Godhood.

Which makes God the Word.  That's a very linguistic constructivist position which I would endorse.  The world as we know it IS made up of words and the maker of words is rightfully the creator. Remember God organized things by naming them into existence.  "And he called their labors the first day".

Edited January 1, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Palerider]

Yes, but the original scripture Luke 8:46 featuring Christ does reference what Joseph is describing here...so I will also go with the scriptures AND Joseph since they agree as always.

 

"Original scripture"? And which one would that be? Luke 8:46 as it stands, references nothing like what Joseph is describing.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Palerider

[Stone holm]

Always viewed that as surely some type of rhetorical question, unless we view Christ as some kind of open electric socket.