Virtue

[3DOP]

Of course Latter-day Saints reject the Book of Wisdom as Scripture, but it still gives insight into the way the ancient world thought and spoke. In describing some of the natural laws of the world that wisdom allows one to understand the author of the book names the following: "The natures of living creatures, and rage of wild beasts, the force of winds, and reasonings of men, the diversities of plants, and the virtues of roots," (Wis. 7:20)

 

It seems probable to me that the virtue spoken of with regards to the roots was of a medicinal and healing nature. 

 

By touch, we know that healing virtues went forth from God's Son. "And all the multitude sought to touch him, for virtue went out from him, and healed all." (Luke 6:19)  Apparently this virtue flowed quite apart from Our Lord's active will, because He was unaware, humanly speaking at least, that someone from behind was approaching Him in ch. 8, in the hope of being healed physically. Truly remarkable isn't it? At least in this case it was the faith of the person seeking the gift that Jesus praised.

 

"Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole", says Jesus in Luke 8:48. Jesus praised the faith that sought Him for healing. In Luke 6:19, a multitude of "touchers" were healed without exception. Presumably they presented themselves to Him purposely on that occasion. No great wonder that word of this got around. It appears that the lady with the issue of blood, maybe because she was just a little timid, decided to try a different approach. It is wonderful that the healing virtue of God was active even apart from Christ's direct knowledge.

 

On a side note, I love Scriptures like this that affirm how God uses material things to give grace and virtue to His children. From the hem of Christ's garment, as from the waters of baptism, we see that God wills that by physical contact with sacred things we are saved, healed, and made more perfect. (A gratuitous argument by a Catholic for holy water, heh.)

 

3DOP   

 

 

Edited January 2, 2014 by 3DOP

[Storm Rider]

Of course Latter-day Saints reject the Book of Wisdom as Scripture, but it still gives insight into the way the ancient world thought and spoke. In describing some of the natural laws of the world that wisdom allows one to understand the author of the book names the following: "The natures of living creatures, and rage of wild beasts, the force of winds, and reasonings of men, the diversities of plants, and the virtues of roots," (Wis. 7:20)

 

It seems probable to me that the virtue spoken of with regards to the roots was of a medicinal and healing nature. 

 

By touch, we know that healing virtues went forth from God's Son. "And all the multitude sought to touch him, for virtue went out from him, and healed all." (Luke 6:19)  Apparently this virtue flowed quite apart from Our Lord's active will, because He was unaware, humanly speaking at least, that someone from behind was approaching Him in ch. 8, in the hope of being healed physically. Truly remarkable isn't it? At least in this case it was the faith of the person seeking the gift that Jesus praised.

 

"Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole", says Jesus in Luke 8:48. Jesus praised the faith that sought Him for healing. In Luke 6:19, a multitude of "touchers" were healed without exception. Presumably they presented themselves to Him purposely on that occasion. No great wonder that word of this got around. It appears that the lady with the issue of blood, maybe because she was just a little timid, decided to try a different approach. It is wonderful that the healing virtue of God was active even apart from Christ's direct knowledge.

 

On a side note, I love Scriptures like this that affirm how God uses material things to give grace and virtue to His children. From the hem of Christ's garment, as from the waters of baptism, we see that God wills that by physical contact with sacred things we are saved, healed, and made more perfect. (A gratuitous argument by a Catholic for holy water, heh.)

 

3DOP   

 

 

 

I love this story in the scriptures. 

 

As a bit of a discussion, as the Lord said, it was her faith that made her whole. The hem of the garment was of no value, but her faith that if she could just touch it, she would be healed. 

The hem of Christ's garment became the focus of her faith; it was the mountain she had to climb and then she would be healed. I think our Catholic brothers and sisters allow a variety of objects to focus the faith of people. How many have been healed by setting their sights on the waters of St. Bernadette's grotto/spring? A host of other objects throughout Christianity have similar stories.

 

LDS tend to avoid these "forms" of rituals, in a desire to follow other forms. To me it is the difference between those who appreciate High Church vs. Low Church liturgy. I think you know of my respect and appreciation for much of Catholicism, but High Church liturgy leaves me rather cold and spiritually unfulfilled. 

 

Regardless, how would it be if we could have that same faith this poor sister enjoyed? If we can but touch the hem of his garment....that healing is real and is open to all those who are willing to open their hearts and stretch forth their hand toward him. 

[cshaw]

Art Katz (Art Kaz Ministries) had the following to say about this subject:

 

"The thing that intrigues me is the word virtue.  Maybe it is an archaic word, used in the times of the King James translators as a synonym for power, but today the word virtue has to do with things ethical and moral.  I am wondering if the use of the word is more than just an accident of time and language.  Other accounts use the word power.  In this translation, the word is virtue, but power is relative to virtue, because Jesus felt something go out of Him.  This implies that it is not a fixed, static amount that He bears at all times, being the Son of God, but it is relative.  As it goes out, it equally comes in.  She took a measure of that power by touching just the outer garment.  This led me to consider that maybe there is a conjunction between virtue and power and that the amount of power for healing, in us as in Him, is relative to the proportion of virtue in which we walk.

I even looked up the word in the concordance and in the thesaurus, and it helps to amplify what I am trying to share.  The dictionary speaks of moral excellence, perfection, integrity, innocence, honor, saintliness, holiness, virtuous conduct.  In other words, virtue means nothing unless it is expressed in conduct.  Virtue is an act; it is what you do, how you respond to moral questions that are before you.  Virtuous responses build something in a person.  Jesus is the pattern Son."

[mfbukowski]

 

. (A gratuitous argument by a Catholic for holy water, heh.)

Well indeed Mormons should have no problem with holy water since we annoint the sick with oil which must be specially consecrated.

 

But I never thought of holy water in this context, so thanks for that. 

 

There is quite a magical feel in Mormon culture to consecrated oil- it is sometimes consecrated in Elder's quorums and everyone goes home with their little bottle, and stashes it away in a safe place, and no one wants to "run out".

 

But the fact is, that according to guidelines, oil may be consecrated by any Elder, and it only takes one Elder to do so, with a simple prayer over some olive oil. So if you can give blessings, there is never a reason to "run out"- more can always be consecrated in about one minute flat.

 

What is important is the prayer, not the oil, just as what is important in the sacrament is the prayer, not the bread and water.  The prayer over the oil turns our hearts to the great Healer in memory of Him, just as the sacrament prayer blesses the bread for the same purpose.

 

The "power" is in us- through the prayer, not in the oil or the water.

Edited January 2, 2014 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

Well indeed Mormons should have no problem with holy water since we annoint the sick with oil which must be specially consecrated.

 

But I never thought of holy water in this context, so thanks for that. 

 

There is quite a magical feel in Mormon culture to consecrated oil- it is sometimes consecrated in Elder's quorums and everyone goes home with their little bottle, and stashes it away in a safe place, and no one wants to "run out".

 

But the fact is, that according to guidelines, oil may be consecrated by any Elder, and it only takes one Elder to do so, with a simple prayer over some olive oil. So if you can give blessings, there is never a reason to "run out"- more can always be consecrated in about one minute flat.

 

What is important is the prayer, not the oil, just as what is important in the sacrament is the prayer, not the bread and water.  The prayer over the oil turns our hearts to the great Healer in memory of Him, just as the sacrament prayer blesses the bread for the same purpose.

 

The "power" is in us- through the prayer, not in the oil or the water.

 

Hi bukowski. I for the most part think we are on the same page here. I am thinking of your post here also Storm Rider in what follows:

 

The power, I think you would both agree, comes from God through the prayer, to the material object, whether consecrated oils, holy water, or baptismal water. The oils can only be consecrated by a bishop, and that at Eastertide. I am not sure about baptismal water. I think a priest can exorcise baptismal water, and I know he can bless water to make it what we call "holy". 

 

I don't think I can disagree with anything that either of you said, except that it appears there is a misconception about what Catholics call "sacramentals". The following quotations come from the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for sacramentals: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13292d.htm

 

Catholic Encyclopedia

The special virtue recognized by the Church and experienced by Christians in the sacramentals should consist in the official prayers whereby we implore God to pour forth special graces on those who make use of the sacramentals.

 

3DOP

Hopefully this dispels concerns that Catholics believe that the material objects that we think are a source of grace, are in any way independent of the prayers of the Church. This passage seems similar to what you say bukowski: "What is important is the prayer..." you said. Although once the prayer has been made, I cannot agree that "What is important is the prayer, not the oil..."  We believe by faith that "virtue", if you will, has gone out into the oils, or water, or medals, or scapulars, or crucifix, or house, or automobile, or boat that has been blessed according to the "official prayers whereby we implore God to pour forth special graces on those who make use of the sacramentals."

 

Yes there is a special blessing for motor cars. It is the most unprovable of beliefs. All I know is that my '78 Toyota pickup still takes me to work every time I ask and I am glad Fr. ______ kindly offered to bless it for me along with somebody else's brand new car back in 2008 when it was already thirty years old. On the other hand, I am not so full of trust in this prayer that I fail to take it to the shop at times. The faithless would undoubtedly attribute its continuing into its 36th year of service to Toyota craftsmanship and my regular maintenance. I do not discount that. But neither do I discount prayer. I don't have to choose one or the other, but if I did, I would rather believe in the prayers. 

 

Catholic Encyclopedia

These prayers move God to give graces which He would not otherwise give, and when not infallibly acceded to it is for reasons known to His Wisdom. God is aware of the measure in which He should bestow His gifts. 

 

3DOP

If somebody thinks virtue resides in "holy water" naturally, it isn't the fault of the Catholic Church. Note how any blessings attached to holy water, or any of these other physical objects are entirely dependent first on prayer, and secondly on God's good will according to circumstances. We are instructed that it would be foolishness to consider that sacramentals can unfailingly heal us, protect us, or bring about our forgiveness before God. This is what distinguishes the Sacramentals (which are instituted by the Church) from Sacraments (which were directly instituted by Christ). We cannot know infallibly that sprinkling holy water on our beds will protect us from having bad dreams or that wearing a medal will be our protection against any particular evil. We must be even less confident if we have been living badly. But we should not doubt that the Sacraments will have the effect which has been promised to them according to our dispositions at the time they are received.

 

I would encourage you and Storm Rider to read the whole short article to at least be assured that we aren't such superstitionists as to think that apart from prayer, certain material objects have a virtuous quality of their own that Catholics think assist us towards salvation, perfection, and exaltation in the next life or even temporal blessings in this life.

 

3DOP

 

 

PS: Every once in a while I'll glance at "My Profile" and note with some amusement an eclectic list of seventy "interests" that the guy I was wrote down back in 2004 when I joined the board for the purpose of saying something in the way of an introduction. It tells something of the random character of my thoughts at the time. But I still hold to the main idea I wished to purvey which was that interests are hard to limit. It would be much easier to name the few things that make me bored than the many things that make me interested. So anyway I happened to review the list tonight and I was delighted to see that nestled snugly between my "interest" in prison and melancholy, was virtue. Virtue is certainly one of the more excellent objects of study to the glory of God. Few on the list are so worthy of "interest" as virtue.

Edited January 3, 2014 by 3DOP

[Acris Venator]

It seems more likely that the faith of the receiver is far more important than the prayer. Same with the takers of sacrament.

 

Words certainly have power. But do they have more power than faith?

 

The woman with the issue of blood performed that miracle. Jesus was the conduit, but he afterward asked "who touched me?" Can it really be claimed with certainty that he performed the miracle, and not her?

[Palerider]

It seems more likely that the faith of the receiver is far more important than the prayer. Same with the takers of sacrament.

 

Words certainly have power. But do they have more power than faith?

 

The woman with the issue of blood performed that miracle. Jesus was the conduit, but he afterward asked "who touched me?" Can it really be claimed with certainty that he performed the miracle, and not her?

 

Her faith in Christ made it possible for Him to heal her whether He was present or not.

 

Just ask yourself if she could have healed herself by faith in herself and I think you have your answer.

[Acris Venator]

Her faith in Christ made it possible for Him to heal her whether He was present or not.

 

Just ask yourself if she could have healed herself by faith in herself and I think you have your answer.

 

I'll consider it. But if there was any laying on of hands, it was hers.

[Palerider]

I'll consider it. But if there was any laying on of hands, it was hers.

 

I agree. She understandably sought Him out and asked to be healed in the only way she could, given the circumstances. If she could have approached Him in a more private setting I think we would have seen a different scenario with the same outcome.

[Coreyb]

Can anyone give me some perspective on Luke 8:46?  From an LDS perspective, what Virtue did Jesus percieve had left him when he was touched?  Almost everything I can find, from LDS sources, seems to focus heavily on the virtue of chastity.  I assume the virtue Jesus felt was a loss of power within himself?  The power was gained by being the perfect example of living all the virtues combined? And there is some link between virtue, healing and Melchizedek Priesthood?  Can anyone help enlighten me on this? 

And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity. 3 Nephi 8:1