Christmas Trees

[EllenMaksoud]

Jeremiah 10:2-4 (King James Version)

Jeremiah 10:2-4

King James Version (KJV)

² Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

³ For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

⁴ They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

 

I was raised with the Christmas tree and then did not experience it for the 7 years I was Muslim. I do not know of any Christian sect that does not use the Christmas Tree except for the JW.  So, is Jeremiah 10:2 to be taken seriously, and if not why?

 

 

[volgadon]

Jeremiah 10:2-4 (King James Version)

Jeremiah 10:2-4

King James Version (KJV)

² Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

³ For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

⁴ They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

 

I was raised with the Christmas tree and then did not experience it for the 7 years I was Muslim. I do not know of any Christian sect that does not use the Christmas Tree except for the JW.  So, is Jeremiah 10:2 to be taken seriously, and if not why?

 

 

 

Yes, take it seriously, but what has it to do with Christmas trees?

[thesometimesaint]

The use of  a tree at Christmas time is an adaptation from the pagan Germanic tribes. Whom worshiped nature in general and green trees in specific. The early Christian Church adopted it to refer to Christ to help ease the conversion to Christianity. There really is nothing wrong with it, except in the mind of some.

[Calm]

 they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

 

 

My Christmas tree is on wheels, so that is okay.

[EllenMaksoud]

Yes, take it seriously, but what has it to do with Christmas trees?

You are not going to make this easy are you?    So, it was evil and pagan to them, but to us it is entirely different symbiology?  Don't you think that Heavenly Father will think that excuse is too lame?

[EllenMaksoud]

My Christmas tree is on wheels, so that is okay.

I have no idea, what so ever.

[thesometimesaint]

You are not going to make this easy are you?    So, it was evil and pagan to them, but to us it is entirely different symbiology?  Don't you think that Heavenly Father will think that excuse is too lame?

 

If it turns our minds to Christ it is fine with me.

[EllenMaksoud]

If it turns our minds to Christ it is fine with me.

That makes it so much easier for me.

[Storm Rider]

Some religionists become quite fundamental in their approach to their respective religions. I think they want to find the purest form of worship and to avoid any pretext of disobedience to God and to honor him in all things. In doing so, they often focus on such minor topics that the most important things are lost. It is not a search for holiness, but a crusade to exclude others from their perceived path.  

 

There are many things that the current culture has done to this sacred time of year; so much so that I find great pleasure in Easter and Thanksgiving. If we are going to seek for holiness let us exclude the commercialization of Christmas and focus the holiday on celebrating the birth of the Son of our Father in Heaven.  I deeply enjoy listening to Handel's Messiah and so many other Christmas hymns and tunes.  I am not so fond of Santa Claus, but I don't exclude him entirely.  We have a statue of Santa kneeling at the creche and that seems to make me feel better about having Santa and snowmen in the home. 

 

The one thing that we demand is that the tree be living; no artificial trees allowed in the house. 

[volgadon]

You are not going to make this easy are you?    So, it was evil and pagan to them, but to us it is entirely different symbiology?  Don't you think that Heavenly Father will think that excuse is too lame?

 

I don't think that Jeremiah had Christmas trees (quite the anachronism) in mind when he penned these verses. What the verses say is that idolators are foolish for considering trees to be gods when the people have to cut them down with tools made by themselves, overlay them with gold and silver themselves, and fasten them down themselves. In other words, these gods have utterly no autonomous power. What does this have to do with Christmas trees?

And yes, if you want to put it that way, to us it has entirely different symbolim. Symbols are inherently flexible and adapt themselves to a broad range of meanings. Besides, it isn't as if Heavenly Father is inimicably opposed to tree symbolism, either.

Edited December 9, 2013 by volgadon

[halconero]

You are not going to make this easy are you?    So, it was evil and pagan to them, but to us it is entirely different symbiology?  Don't you think that Heavenly Father will think that excuse is too lame?

 

Essentially what Volgadon is saying is that Jeremiah was not referring to Christmas trees in this verse, which have their origin in renaissance Germany, and hearken back to some older customs before even that. It's doubtful that the ancient middle eastern prophet had any familiarity with Luthern/neo-pagan practices.

[Alan]

Personally I believe EllenMaksoud has made a very good point here.

I'm not at all sure that God approves of Christmas; certainly not in it's 21st century mode.

[thesometimesaint]

Personally I believe EllenMaksoud has made a very good point here.

I'm not at all sure that God approves of Christmas; certainly not in it's 21st century mode.

 

I like to think that God recognizes even our feeble, and sometimes misdirected, attempts to celebrate the birth of his son.

[Tacenda]

And Santa whispered, "Teach the children the true meaning of Christmas…"
 

• The Star: A heavenly sign of prophecy fulfilled long, long ago- The shining hope of mankind.

   

• The Color Red: The first color of Christmas, symbolizing that Savior's sacrifice for all.

   

• The Fir Tree: Evergreen- the second color of Christmas shows everlasting light and life. The needles point up to heaven.

   

• The Bell: Rings out to guide lost sheep back to the fold, signifying that all are precious in His eyes.

   

• The Candle: A mirror of starlight, reflecting our thanks for the star of Bethlehem.

   

• The Gift Bow: Tied as we should all be tied together in bonds of goodwill forever.

   

• The Candy Cane: Represents the shape of the shepherd's crook, used to bring lost lambs back to the fold.

   

• The Wreath: A symbol of the never ending eternal value of love… having no end.

[halconero]

Personally I believe EllenMaksoud has made a very good point here.

I'm not at all sure that God approves of Christmas; certainly not in it's 21st century mode.

I think he would've approved of last night's devotional, the reading of Luke 2 that a lot of families do, and the acts of service performed by many at this time of year.

Commercialism? Probably not so much.

But I don't think Ezekiel was commenting on Black Friday either.

[Garden Girl]

Thanks, Tacenda... I'd never seen those symbols described in that manner...

 

Ellen, I've never read those scriptures before, but agree that they do not apply to Christmas trees as we know them (thanks Volgadon)...

 

For me, Christmas trees always represented hearth and home, a warm feeling of celebration... first of the Savior's birth... and second a gathering of family and friends to share carols and cider and reflect upon the year past and the coming New Year. 

So... I always chose the largest tree my home would allow, floor to ceiling, and wide around... then I would decorate it with the hundreds of ornaments I had collected, with a beautiful star on top to symbolize the Star announcing the Savior's birth.  I put hundreds of small white lights so that they reflected in and on the ornaments. Everything was in traditional Christmas colors.  It was always so beautiful. 

Then  I would place garlands of evergreens (the only non-real items, but very full and realistic looking) down the stairwell with red bows and silver bells... and on the fieplace mantle with red berries and white lights woven in,   Centerpieces of candles, large and small, and wreaths of evergreens, berries and fruit... how I loved to make my home welcoming and fragrant with the aromas of the trees and wreaths, of baking cookies, and cinnamon cider... and the crackling of the fire in the fireplace... 

Oh my dear online brothers and sisters... how I yearn for those days... but they are no more... my loved ones are gone, the home sold...

And here I am... not one shred of Christmas or holiday cheer in my home... yet I have memories... wonderful memories... and still take the opportunity to celebrate the Savior's birth, albeit alone...

 

from the beach on a bitterly cold day... snow still on the ground... (Bobbie-cat sitting here on my desk as I type, watching the birds on the ground scratching in the leaves for whatever they can find, their little bodies round with puffed up feathers against the chill... maybe I'll take some bread and break it up and throw it out for them).

 

GG

[thesometimesaint]

 

And Santa whispered, "Teach the children the true meaning of Christmas…"

 

• The Star: A heavenly sign of prophecy fulfilled long, long ago- The shining hope of mankind.

   

• The Color Red: The first color of Christmas, symbolizing that Savior's sacrifice for all.

   

• The Fir Tree: Evergreen- the second color of Christmas shows everlasting light and life. The needles point up to heaven.

   

• The Bell: Rings out to guide lost sheep back to the fold, signifying that all are precious in His eyes.

   

• The Candle: A mirror of starlight, reflecting our thanks for the star of Bethlehem.

   

• The Gift Bow: Tied as we should all be tied together in bonds of goodwill forever.

   

• The Candy Cane: Represents the shape of the shepherd's crook, used to bring lost lambs back to the fold.

   

• The Wreath: A symbol of the never ending eternal value of love… having no end.

 

 

Very nice.

[changed]

The story I was told as a child was that a long time ago, there was a mighty hunter named "Nimrod" who was raping, murdering, and pilaging through many different kingdoms.  He was a hunter, and had a band of robbers - he wore the skins of the animals that he killed with their horns and tails etc. which is where we get the picture of Satan from.... he also married his own mother.... anyways, he was wanted in many different kingdoms for various horrible crimes - when he was finally caught, the kingdom that caught him chopped his body up into pieces, and sent a piece to each of the different kingdoms where he was wanted, so everyone could know that he was finally killed.... his mother/wife was upset about this, so she got his group of robbers together, and initiated a ceremony to bring Nimrod back to life - on the shortest/coldest day of the year, she showed them the pine tree - the one that does not die over winter.  They cut down a pine tree, cut it up like Nimrod was cut up, and burned it in a huge bone-fire with animal sacrifices etc. etc. (the "yule log"), then after everyone was passed out from drugs, she got another pine tree, and decorated it all up, so when everyone woke up the next morning, they saw the new tree.  She told them that just as this tree had rison from the ashes, her son had also rison from the ashes etc. etc.  Anwyays, that's one story

That said, Abraham worshipped in a grove of trees, so trees can't be that bad, right?
 

• Genesis 21:33

  33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.

We have an atheist relative that will teach our children these types of things when we get together, so I have already had to talk with them about it - how Jesus was not really born on Dec 25th, and a lot of the traditions have non-Christian origins, which is sad.  We still have a Christmas tree etc. etc. up, and I just tell the kids, that for us, it represents the Savior - even though for others, it did not... just like Hitler used the same sign that others use for peace etc. etc.  It's not about the symbol, it's about the reality behind the symbol and all that.

Edited December 9, 2013 by changed

[Tacenda]

Thanks, Tacenda... I'd never seen those symbols described in that manner...

 

Ellen, I've never read those scriptures before, but agree that they do not apply to Christmas trees as we know them (thanks Volgadon)...

 

For me, Christmas trees always represented hearth and home, a warm feeling of celebration... first of the Savior's birth... and second a gathering of family and friends to share carols and cider and reflect upon the year past and the coming New Year. 

So... I always chose the largest tree my home would allow, floor to ceiling, and wide around... then I would decorate it with the hundreds of ornaments I had collected, with a beautiful star on top to symbolize the Star announcing the Savior's birth.  I put hundreds of small white lights so that they reflected in and on the ornaments. Everything was in traditional Christmas colors.  It was always so beautiful. 

Then  I would place garlands of evergreens (the only non-real items, but very full and realistic looking) down the stairwell with red bows and silver bells... and on the fieplace mantle with red berries and white lights woven in,   Centerpieces of candles, large and small, and wreaths of evergreens, berries and fruit... how I loved to make my home welcoming and fragrant with the aromas of the trees and wreaths, of baking cookies, and cinnamon cider... and the crackling of the fire in the fireplace... 

Oh my dear online brothers and sisters... how I yearn for those days... but they are no more... my loved ones are gone, the home sold...

And here I am... not one shred of Christmas or holiday cheer in my home... yet I have memories... wonderful memories... and still take the opportunity to celebrate the Savior's birth, albeit alone...

 

from the beach on a bitterly cold day... snow still on the ground... (Bobbie-cat sitting here on my desk as I type, watching the birds on the ground scratching in the leaves for whatever they can find, their little bodies round with puffed up feathers against the chill... maybe I'll take some bread and break it up and throw it out for them).

 

GG

I'm a bit of a humbug this year!  I feel like we just had Christmas!  I want something....anything to get the spirit.  My mom and I would always notice something every year that helped us get the spirit, sometimes it happened early in the season and sometimes later, I miss her so much.  So you're not alone in feeling like you are going by memories.  Thankfully we have them! BTW, you gave your loved ones some awesome memories, what a gift!   

 

Just a comment on the symbols in my post.  Early in my marriage my wonderful sister in law, who grew up in Oregon BTW!, did a little Christmas program for all the children at a family party.  She told a story that Santa came to her one night, while she was up sewing (white lie) and told her to make sure the children knew the symbols of Christmas!  Then she showed a red Santa's bag full of these symbols and took each one out of the bag telling what each meant.

 

Just in case anyone needs an idea. 

 

Kind of makes it ok I guess... to have Santa, candy canes, and all the items we have at Christmas time.  Though it does feel like such commercialism out there. It's a fine line to walk and we cannot forget about His children who are suffering.     

[EllenMaksoud]

Personally I believe EllenMaksoud has made a very good point here.

I'm not at all sure that God approves of Christmas; certainly not in it's 21st century mode.

Thank you.

[EllenMaksoud]

Even during the years 2005-2012 when I was practicing Islam, Jesus the Christ (I wonder how many people realize that "Christ" is not his last name?), was never far from my thoughts.  We do not understand God, Jesus the Christ, and the heavenly host very well. We can see the evidence of things unexplainable happening, mostly in our own souls, and more rarely out in the physical world where we see and then try to understand. There is a yearning in our souls to know, to feel, to understand but for most of us that remains largely unfulfilled aside from the occasional glimpse into glory.

 

Even sitting here in my apartment behind three locked doors and barred windows, sometimes security is fleeting, abandonment issues plaguing at times. I choose, by the mercy of the Heavenly Father  that the Mormons introduced me to, to practice a virgin born, loving and kind, much misunderstood, often used, crucified and risen Jesus the Christ, who will one day return to us once again. Heavenly Father, may our ways, as imperfect as they are, find favor in thy sight. Help us to love and serve you in ways that are pleasing to you. Amen.

 

I wonder what Jesus's last name is?

Edited December 9, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Ron Beron]

Even during the years 2005-2012 when I was practicing Islam, Jesus the Christ (I wonder how many people realize that "Christ" is not his last name?), was never far from my thoughts.  We do not understand God, Jesus the Christ, and the heavenly host very well. We can see the evidence of things unexplainable happening, mostly in our own souls, and more rarely out in the physical world where we see and then try to understand. There is a yearning in our souls to know, to feel, to understand but for most of us that remains largely unfulfilled aside from the occasional glimpse into glory.

 

Even sitting here in my apartment behind three locked doors and barred windows, sometimes security is fleeting, abandonment issues plaguing at times. I choose, by the mercy of the Heavenly Father  that the Mormons introduced me to, to practice a virgin born, loving and kind, much misunderstood, often used, crucified and risen Jesus the Christ, who will one day return to us once again. Heavenly Father, may our ways, as imperfect as they are, find favor in thy sight. Help us to love and serve you in ways that are pleasing to you. Amen.

 

I wonder what Jesus's last name is?

Yeshuya bar(ben) Josef

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Jeremiah 10:2-4 (King James Version)

Jeremiah 10:2-4

King James Version (KJV)

² Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

³ For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

⁴ They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

 

I was raised with the Christmas tree and then did not experience it for the 7 years I was Muslim. I do not know of any Christian sect that does not use the Christmas Tree except for the JW.  So, is Jeremiah 10:2 to be taken seriously, and if not why?

Even if you apply it to Christmas Tree's, if you read further it says these are "not to be feared"...as in to the to this. "Heathen" means for the most part as even Gentile did forever, "unbeliever". Also it took the Catholic Church a loooog time to warm up to what we call Christmas Trees. The important thing is to never worship the traditions of Christmas, but Christ for whom it is remembered.

[rpn]

I cannot imagine that Heavenly Parents or our Savior object to us decorating our home with christmas trees and gathering around it --- however the custom got started.