Treating Lightly The Book Of Mormon

[Duncan]

Thanks for the link - I have quiet a library of references on the D&C.  Robert Woodford, Max Parkin, M. Marquardt, Lyndon Cook, Steven Harper, Mark Staker, Milton Backman, Dean Jessee, etc, etc..  None that I'm aware of have made mention of the specific context of this portion of Section 84.  I read the reference by Ezra Taft Benson about the "missionaries" treating it lightly and was curious where that might have come from.

 

 

hmm, curiouser and curiouser and I want to see your book collection! haha!

 

this is an article about the nearer to God part, interesting stuff!

 

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/living-book-mormon-abiding-its-precepts/3-getting-%E2%80%9Cnearer-god%E2%80%9D-history-joseph-smith%E2%80%99s-state

[AndyDnom]

When I was a kid, everyone was waiting very excitedly for "New scriptures" and "sealed portions" now that we have taken Benson's challenge to read the BOM. But we only get PR newsroom statements now that contradict themselves let alone previous leader statements.

 

I think its fair to say that no new mormon scriptures will ever come out. Certainly not revealed ancient scriptures. Anyone care to deny that here, or deny that in the 80s and 90s people genuinely expected "new" ancient scripture to be revealed?

 

heck, I was stupid enough to think that Labans sword was in the first presidents vault. that was the attitude at the time.

[Avatar4321]

I can't speak for people. Only myself. And I dont know that I've ever expected new scripture to be revealed. I have enough to study as it is. I would like to live what I have first. Of course, if the Lord reveals more, I don't have a problem with it. And Im not going to tell Him He cant lie so many people do for some reason.

 

BTW are you familiar with the Dead Sea scrolls?

[Duncan]

When I was a kid, everyone was waiting very excitedly for "New scriptures" and "sealed portions" now that we have taken Benson's challenge to read the BOM. But we only get PR newsroom statements now that contradict themselves let alone previous leader statements.

 

I think its fair to say that no new mormon scriptures will ever come out. Certainly not revealed ancient scriptures. Anyone care to deny that here, or deny that in the 80s and 90s people genuinely expected "new" ancient scripture to be revealed?

 

heck, I was stupid enough to think that Labans sword was in the first presidents vault. that was the attitude at the time.

 

 

I was around in the 80's and the 90's and I didn't expect new scriptures to come out, the Book of Mormon, POGP,  and certain portions of the DC are the last ancient scriptures we have have. Maybe more will come who knows.

[AndyDnom]

\ Maybe more will come who knows.

 

Now thats the attitude i was talking about. Maybe that mindset is more common than i thought.

 

Can I ask what it is about the last hundred years that makes you think more scripture is coming? To me it seems that more scripture has been eliminated / downplayed / excused than there has been new scripture revealed.

 

Most the talk I hear now is "Will the Book of Abraham be Decanonized" not "Will a new yet unknown book be added to the cannon."

 

Anything is possible I guess.

[Duncan]

Now thats the attitude i was talking about. Maybe that mindset is more common than i thought.

 

Can I ask what it is about the last hundred years that makes you think more scripture is coming? To me it seems that more scripture has been eliminated / downplayed / excused than there has been new scripture revealed.

 

Most the talk I hear now is "Will the Book of Abraham be Decanonized" not "Will a new yet unknown book be added to the cannon."

 

Anything is possible I guess.

 

 

The Church seems to just come out with new things without any, for lack of a better word, warning. So, I am playing with the toys I already got but Christmas is coming eventually.

[Avatar4321]

Now thats the attitude i was talking about. Maybe that mindset is more common than i thought.

 

Can I ask what it is about the last hundred years that makes you think more scripture is coming? To me it seems that more scripture has been eliminated / downplayed / excused than there has been new scripture revealed.

 

Most the talk I hear now is "Will the Book of Abraham be Decanonized" not "Will a new yet unknown book be added to the cannon."

 

Anything is possible I guess.

 

 

God still speaks. What else do we need to believe that more scripture might come forth?

[Avatar4321]

Also the Proclamation on the Family

[strappinglad]

I don't think there will ever be another BoM type scripture until the Second Coming. I can't see President Monson or any of the current apostles sitting down with a Urim and Thummim and producing the sealed portions etc. That said, I think it quite possible that other peoples will find or reveal scriptures from their ancient past.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In Section 84 given in late September 1832 we read:

"And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received, which vanity and unbelief hath brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all; and they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written, that they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father's kingdom, otherwise there remaineth a scourge and a judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion; for, shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay."

Ezra Taft Benson remarked about the historical context of this heavenly rebuke by suggesting that it was in reference to missionaries who we're treating the record lightly.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/39166/Church-counseled-Dont-treat-lightly-the-Book-of-Mormon.html

Does anyone know the source for this assertion?

It seems that I once read a study showing that the Book of Mormon was used less than the Bible in public ministry by the early brethren, even Joseph. The idea that without the widespread availability of the book or a knowledge of its contents - that foundational stories of its miraculous coming forth or more general statements about its claims were what was being circulated.

Does anyone know the historical context of this portion of Section 84? Obviously the "former commandments" portion probably referred to the laws of consecration that we're being treated lightly by some in Zion and elsewhere.

Many of the newspapers of the day chronicled the preaching by many of the early missionaries concerning the Book of Mormon, it's origin and teachings. It seems to be front and center in their preaching. That doesn't seem to square with the notion of not remembering the book in their proselytizing endeavors.

What is the sitz im liben of this revelation? How was the Book of Mormon being forgotten?

Mike

When we do not read or heed what it says, we forget it, reject and forget it.

[Que]

Just a small point: it is Sitz im Leben, not liben. It means context, or setting in life. Life, in German, is Leben, not liben...

 

Sorry, don't want to be the grammar police, but thought you might want to know...

 

Q

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Just a small point: it is Sitz im Leben, not liben. It means context, or setting in life. Life, in German, is Leben, not liben...

 

Sorry, don't want to be the grammar police, but thought you might want to know...

 

Q

I lived in Germany four years...I wasn't gonna.

[AndyDnom]

I don't think there will ever be another BoM type scripture until the Second Coming. I can't see President Monson or any of the current apostles sitting down with a Urim and Thummim and producing the sealed portions etc. That said, I think it quite possible that other peoples will find or reveal scriptures from their ancient past.

 

Why can't you see them doing that?

 

Who are the other people that will reveal scriptures from their ancient past? will you accept it as scripture?

[AndyDnom]

I can't speak for people. Only myself. And I dont know that I've ever expected new scripture to be revealed. I have enough to study as it is. I would like to live what I have first. Of course, if the Lord reveals more, I don't have a problem with it. And Im not going to tell Him He cant lie so many people do for some reason.

 

BTW are you familiar with the Dead Sea scrolls?

 

Yes, I played a part in taking them from their (black, ureadable) initial condition upon discovery, to being able to be read. 

[Garden Girl]

keep checking this link

http://history.lds.org/article/revelations-in-context-index?lang=eng

 

BYUTV has Doctrine and Covenants roundtable discussions you can look up, they have every section. Also scripture guides by C. Max Caldwell, Joseph F. McConkie, Steven Harper and H. Dean Garrett come to mind

 

And, there are also Book of Mormon roundtable discussions that have helped me have a better appreciation and understanding.  It brought the the book to life for me with their insights from their lengthy study of the book. 

 

GG

[Alan]

Personally I feel we have gone too far the other way. The missionaries here do not use the Bible when teaching investigators at all. Recently a visitor to church asked for a Book of Mormon and a Bible. They were able to issue her with a BoM straightaway, but they said they would have to order a Bible!

 

I went to a mission reunion in Scotland many years ago. The mission president at the time had served in Scotland as a young missionary some 50+ years previously. He said that when he was a young missionary (speaking of the Scottish people) no one had a fridge, no one had a car, but everyone had a Bible. Nowadays, everyone has a fridge, everyone has a car, but no one has a Bible.

 

Our missionaries can no longer assume they are teaching basically christian people.

[Tacenda]

Personally I feel we have gone too far the other way. The missionaries here do not use the Bible when teaching investigators at all. Recently a visitor to church asked for a Book of Mormon and a Bible. They were able to issue her with a BoM straightaway, but they said they would have to order a Bible!

 

I went to a mission reunion in Scotland many years ago. The mission president at the time had served in Scotland as a young missionary some 50+ years previously. He said that when he was a young missionary (speaking of the Scottish people) no one had a fridge, no one had a car, but everyone had a Bible. Nowadays, everyone has a fridge, everyone has a car, but no one has a Bible.

 

Our missionaries can no longer assume they are teaching basically christian people.

I bolded the sentence in this post.  Because it seems to me that the bible in our church is just a by word.  I never hear read your Bible.  I hear read the Book of Mormon!  Even during Bible instruction years.  Sorry, if I get flack, it's just the way it is.  And Alan, I know that isn't the reason for your post more than likely.  Just that the missionaries need to know their bible.  I do think a lot do though.   

[Garden Girl]

I bolded the sentence in this post.  Because it seems to me that the bible in our church is just a by word.  I never hear read your Bible.  I hear read the Book of Mormon!  Even during Bible instruction years.  Sorry, if I get flack, it's just the way it is.  And Alan, I know that isn't the reason for your post more than likely.  Just that the missionaries need to know their bible.  I do think a lot do though.   

 

Tacenda...

I do resent your sweeping statement that "the bible in our church(?) is just a by word."  Do you mean in your ward?  That's not the way it is in my ward... far from it... Yes, we emphasize the BoM, but the bible is not just a by word and is regularlyly included in our quotes and references.  Not long ago I was asked to speak in Sac Mtg and my topic was what it meant to be a covenant people... I took my references from the standard works... first and mainly from the Bible, then a couple from D&C... and a couple from BoM and PoGP... I utilized all of our scriptures.  And this is generally how our speakers do... it is not just the BoM...  Perhaps in your ward your experience is different from my ward.  To make a statement that in our church the bible is just a by word is misleading...

 

GG

 

GG

[Calm]

Because it seems to me that the bible in our church is just a by word. I never hear read your Bible. I hear read the Book of Mormon! Even during Bible instruction years. Sorry, if I get flack, it's just the way it is.

Right...such articles like this one don't actually exist:

http://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/mark-400th-anniversary-by-studying-bible?lang=eng

Perhaps the missionaries didn't carry around Bibles to hand out because they expected people to already have their own...

Edited December 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

.

Our missionaries can no longer assume they are teaching basically christian people.

I think this depends a great deal on where one lives and if the missionaries were not from an area that was relatively secular, perhaps they hadn't realized yet things were different there.

If missionaries are not using the Bible at all they are not teaching according to the guidelines of Preach My Gospel which includes citations from the Bible just as it does the uniquely LDS scriptures.

While the Bible is not the most frequently cited scripture in the discussions, this should be not that hard to understand when one of the main purposes of missionary work is to teach that revelation is continuing and that God is talking to man in modern times as well as in ancient.

Edited December 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Garden Girl]

Tacenda... you may find this interesting...

 

I'm just reading the Dec 1 edition of the Church News... and on page 5 is a full page devoted to "Praise for God's Word"... Salt Lake City, National Bible City 2013...

3000 interfaith paople filled the tabernacle on Temple Square on Nov 23 for an evening of very specific musical praise and an interfaith "Concert of Praise for God's Word."

Richard Glickstein, president of the National Bible Assoc, which sponsored the event: "This concert is an expression of thankfulness to God for His gift of the Bible."

Elder D.Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve welcomed the audience on behalf of the Church, and  stated "It's an honor to host this concert of praise and celebration of God's word," adding that "...God's word out of the Holy Bible is very relevant to each one of us... The teaching of this divinely inspired book will ultimately lead us to Christ and salvation.  I believe that people of faith who read and ponder biblical teachings in their lives form the moral underpinning of society." 

 

It's a wonderful article about the week long Bible Week observance in which the Church participated widely in the activities and programs... during which Salt Lake City was officially designated as National Bible City 2013....

 

GG

 

 

[Tacenda]

I saw that article, but still stand by what I said. But it's my bad, that I lumped the whole church, when it may be just my ward. Not once have I heard that we need to read specifically the bible, only hear the BoM.

But like Cal said, it may be that the BoM reflects the churches continuing revelation and God speaking to man in modern times.

[cdowis]

Ive never heard of that book. Is it at all difficult to find?

 

I found it on Amazon

[Robert F. Smith]

Right...such articles like this one don't actually exist:

http://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/mark-400th-anniversary-by-studying-bible?lang=eng

Perhaps the missionaries didn't carry around Bibles to hand out because they expected people to already have their own...

My own experience as Sunday School President not so long ago was that the investigator class always handed out Bible and Book of Mormon to new students, and we always kept a large supply in the closet.  I would be astonished if that were not the case generally.  The notion of lack of emphasis on the Bible is just plain silly, and I haven't seen it.

[Garden Girl]

I saw that article, but still stand by what I said. But it's my bad, that I lumped the whole church, when it may be just my ward. Not once have I heard that we need to read specifically the bible, only hear the BoM.

But like Cal said, it may be that the BoM reflects the churches continuing revelation and God speaking to man in modern times.

 

That's fine and good, Tacenda... but in those posts where you seemingly continue to make inaccurate and misleading statements as if they were fact in order to voice your criticisms of the Church, you do a disservice to those posters who come here to seek legitimate answers and information regarding the Church.  Your statement that the Bible is but a "by word" to the Church is the perfect example, because it simply is not true... you can stand by your statement all you want... it doesn't change the fact that it is false... as several have pointed out.

You can make any statement you want... but IMO when you choose to make such broad inaccurate statements, it would be helpful if you could identify them as "In My Opinion" or "It is my personal belief" so it is clear that it is your opinion.

 

In my ward library when people, especially visitors, come in and ask to borrow a set of scriptures we hand out the Bible and a triple together... always... (we have on hand about a dozen+ sets people can borrow for the meetings).

 

GG

Edited December 11, 2013 by Garden Girl