bluebell Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 There have been atheist posters thru the years who have strongly denied any implication that atheism was a religion, or at all comparable in dogmatism to religious churches.I read an article on Yahoo this morning though which describes a new movement among atheists-atheist mega churches. http://news.yahoo.com/atheist-mega-churches-root-across-us-world-214619648.html I'm wondering how atheists in general are responding to this. Do we still have atheist posters on here that can comment? Can atheism be legitimately described as a religion? How much of this issue is just semantics?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 (edited) Can atheism be legitimately described as a religion? How much of this issue is just semantics? Guess it depends on how you we define a relgion. I think athiest have religous views or a belief system. I would dare say that those 2 are similar in meaning. I think alot of it is semantics. Because once an athiest admits that he has "religious" views then the often misunderstood term of sepratation of church and state goes out the window that they love to trot out. Edited November 11, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 There have been atheist posters thru the years who have strongly denied any implication that atheism was a religion, or at all comparable in dogmatism to religious churches.I read an article on Yahoo this morning though which describes a new movement among atheists-atheist mega churches. http://news.yahoo.com/atheist-mega-churches-root-across-us-world-214619648.html I'm wondering how atheists in general are responding to this. Do we still have atheist posters on here that can comment? Can atheism be legitimately described as a religion? How much of this issue is just semantics?It is as much a leap of faith to believe in nothing as in something one cannot see.
Lightbearer Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 Of course atheism is a religion, it is the religion of unbelief. The religon of the communist state. The true religion of Satan, one that discounts God and denies the Holy Ghost, one that mocks all that is sacred and holy, that reduces man to a mere animal that evolved by chance and tries to prove itself claiming "reason" as it's foundation. It is the concept that man is the "measure of all things" and it tries to prevade all of society. It is a philosophy that likes to sit in judgement of all other beliefs as an Anti-Religion, an Anti-belief. It sits in judgement blaming all the ills of mankind, war, hatred, vice, ignorance on religion (believers in a god or gods) and I believe it is a pathetic view that deludes itself of it's own supposed superiority and is really inspired of Lucifer from the very beginning in his own words: "believe it not!" There is nothing in my estimation of value in it's ideals or concepts. That is why I usually chose to not have dialogue with those who aspire to this "unbelief" dogma. 1
Senator Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 That is why I usually chose to not have dialogue with those who aspire to this "unbelief" dogma. How will they then be saved?
bluebell Posted November 11, 2013 Author Posted November 11, 2013 I thought the one atheist quoted in the article, Michael Luciano, had an interesting point. He said-"There's something not OK with appropriating all of this religious language, imagery and ritual for atheism." I have to say that I kind of agree with him. It does seem like these atheists are appropriating religion while still wanting to be anti-religious.
Lightbearer Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 How will they then be saved?I do not think anyone will be saved by dialoging on this board. Not it's purpose...We do not debate the Gospel to get converted and that seems to be the purpose of this board, to debate. I do not come here to get answers to my Gospel questions, in fact of late I do not often come here, I am sure much to your relief. But if someone (even one who is an avowed atheist) is seeking the truth they can find it but they never will unless they have faith. Which means we must find it on God's terms not our own. We cannot demand a sign from God and never plant a seed of faith. Most atheist I have encountered on this board have no desire to learn about the Gospel it is generally to ridicule and mock those of us who try to defend the faith we have so why would I want to dialogue with them? They have nothing to offer me except doubt, unbelief and criticism.
Gohan Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 (edited) Edit: Offered as a joke, I saw the thread, remembered the comic, and I couldn't resist... Edited November 11, 2013 by Gohan
Nofear Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 Some may take issue with the phrase "megachurch": http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2013/11/how-many-atheists-does-it-take-to-form-a-megachurch/But interesting nonetheless.
halconero Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 I would say that some atheist movements show several similarities to churches and other belief systems. We certainly study atheism within in religion minor, and not as a contrast to "true" religion. The notion that religion is the belief in supernatural beings or a concept of the divine is being readily abandoned by scholars of religion, anthropology, sociology and history. It is a Euro-centric notion that developed out of the Protestant Reformation, and the Enlightenment movement. In many parts of the world this universalist, reductionist definition would not apply to activities that locals would define as religious.
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 If Mormons ever get the picture, we could be the strongest force for good the world has ever seen. The question remains however if we will get the picture. We worship Man- God IS a man and that makes us Humanists of the highest order. If we could just stand up and say that the old god of the sectarians is indeed "dead"- because he never was, we could be right in there with those who worship man but call themselves "Atheists" because they have confused god with the old sectarian notions of a god without body parts or passions. Mormons worship Man and the Family- that is the bottom line, and the quicker we acknowledge our kinship with others who do, we will be better off for it! Philosophers like Richard Rorty have written books on the future of religion- saying that it will become dedicated to the highest aspirations of mankind. Guess what? Mormons are already there. That is actually the cognitive "Reason" why I joined the church- the God decided to konk me on the head with a few powerful spiritual experiences just to show me he meant it! 3
Analytics Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 (edited) There have been atheist posters thru the years who have strongly denied any implication that atheism was a religion, or at all comparable in dogmatism to religious churches.I read an article on Yahoo this morning though which describes a new movement among atheists-atheist mega churches. http://news.yahoo.com/atheist-mega-churches-root-across-us-world-214619648.html I'm wondering how atheists in general are responding to this. Do we still have atheist posters on here that can comment? Can atheism be legitimately described as a religion? How much of this issue is just semantics? In general, an atheist is somebody who lacks a positive belief in God(s). Suggesting that everybody who lacks belief in God is a member of the same religion makes about as much sense as claiming that everybody who doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny global warming is a member of the same religion. But, if a group of atheists believe that it's worthwhile to get together with like-minded people on Sunday mornings to meet other people, listen to inspiring stories, sing songs, play games, contemplate love, organize service projects, or whatever, that's great. But such a society is more specific than atheism. Edited November 11, 2013 by Analytics 1
Senator Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 I do not think anyone will be saved by dialoging on this board. I wasn't necessarily talking about this board.
bluebell Posted November 11, 2013 Author Posted November 11, 2013 In general, an atheist is somebody who lacks a positive belief in God(s). Suggesting that everybody who lacks belief in God is a member of the same religion makes about as much sense as claiming that everybody who doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny global warming is a member of the same religion. But, if a group of atheists believe that it's worthwhile to get together with like-minded people on Sunday mornings to meet other people, listen to inspiring stories, sing songs, play games, contemplate love, organize service projects, or whatever, that's great. But such a society is more specific than atheism. I think I understand what you are saying, but isn't it similar to the differences between Christian denominations? I mean, a person could say that the LDS church is more specific than Christianity in general, but that wouldn't mean that LDS isn't a religion, right? Another interesting question (to the thread in general and not specifically to you) is whether or not its possible to have a 'church' but not have a religion. It seems that these atheists want a church but don't want a religion. Is that just semantics?
Analytics Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 I think I understand what you are saying, but isn't it similar to the differences between Christian denominations? I mean, a person could say that the LDS church is more specific than Christianity in general, but that wouldn't mean that LDS isn't a religion, right? Another interesting question (to the thread in general and not specifically to you) is whether or not its possible to have a 'church' but not have a religion. It seems that these atheists want a church but don't want a religion. Is that just semantics? Wikipedia defines religion as, "an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence." Atheism is merely the lack of belief in God. Atheism per se is nothing more than the absence of that single specific belief, so it isn't much of an organized collection of anything. Atheists can have religion though. For example, you could be a Unitarian Universalist atheist or a Buddhist atheist. If a group of atheists form a group with the trappings of religion such as churches and church services, I think it is fair to say they are creating an atheist religion. But that religion is about whatever beliefs and cultural systems they foster, the disbelief in God only being a small part of it.
cinepro Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) Is that just semantics?It stops being semantics when the IRS gets involved. Just ask the Scientologists. Edited November 12, 2013 by cinepro 1
Stone holm Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 I have never felt comfortable with the notion of atheism as a religion, however, I do believe that a few atheists are so passionate in their denial of the existence of God that their belief takes on that nature. To say, however, that those who believe in the separation of Church and State are predominantly atheists is wrong. I know of many people who are very religious, but who have a firm belief that nothing good happens either to religion or government by the commingling of religion and government. Mormons of all Americans should be wary of the commingling of the same given the impact of that commingling on the Church during the 19th Century. Those who have fought bitterly against Mormonism have not been the atheists, but Christians who believe differently than us and individuals who for one reason or another have either left the Church or been expelled. Normally those who claim that atheism is a religion do so in order to use it in a strained argument trying to defend or justify imposing their beliefs on others.
mfbukowski Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 In general, an atheist is somebody who lacks a positive belief in God(s). Suggesting that everybody who lacks belief in God is a member of the same religion makes about as much sense as claiming that everybody who doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny global warming is a member of the same religion. But, if a group of atheists believe that it's worthwhile to get together with like-minded people on Sunday mornings to meet other people, listen to inspiring stories, sing songs, play games, contemplate love, organize service projects, or whatever, that's great. But such a society is more specific than atheism.Nope.Lacking a belief in God is not the same as actively believing that he "doesn't exist". They know very specifically what characteristics of God they deny "exist". For example, if one defines "God" to be "the force of nature", or "human compassion" or "the ideal Human" few atheists would contend that such concepts don't "exist". They might argue that such ideas are not what they mean by "God" at all! So clearly they have a very specific view of God implicit in their position, and their position about their specific definition of what "God" is, is that such a God "does not exist". There is a sense in which even unicorns "exist"- we know what they look like, we have a literature about them, but they are fictitious. Even a fictitious God exists in some sense as a social or literary entity, but an atheist would say "That's not what I mean when I say God doesn't exist". At that point you could ask your atheist what specifically is the God which they say "does not exist" and they could tell you exactly what the characteristics of God are- what characteristics "do not exist". So really they have a clear definition of God- which they say "does not exist". The position is a religious one, since it is non-falsifiable. One cannot falsify that a "God" with certain definable characteristics does NOT exist any more than one can prove that he DOES exist. So both positions are in a sense religious- the belief in propositions which are not falsifiable. 2
Stone holm Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 Nope.Lacking a belief in God is not the same as actively believing that he "doesn't exist". They know very specifically what characteristics of God they deny "exist". For example, if one defines "God" to be "the force of nature", or "human compassion" or "the ideal Human" few atheists would contend that such concepts don't "exist". They might argue that such ideas are not what they mean by "God" at all! So clearly they have a very specific view of God implicit in their position, and their position about their specific definition of what "God" is, is that such a God "does not exist". There is a sense in which even unicorns "exist"- we know what they look like, we have a literature about them, but they are fictitious. Even a fictitious God exists in some sense as a social or literary entity, but an atheist would say "That's not what I mean when I say God doesn't exist". At that point you could ask your atheist what specifically is the God which they say "does not exist" and they could tell you exactly what the characteristics of God are- what characteristics "do not exist". So really they have a clear definition of God- which they say "does not exist". The position is a religious one, since it is non-falsifiable. One cannot falsify that a "God" with certain definable characteristics does NOT exist any more than one can prove that he DOES exist. So both positions are in a sense religious- the belief in propositions which are not falsifiable.While some may fall within your reasoning, many simply lack belief in the supernatural. The ones I know simply feel that they have no observable evidence that such a being exists, and in our American culture, if you do not believe a Supreme Being or Beings exist, then you basically get classified as atheists. Back say around the time of the revolution of course there was also considerable disbelief amongst many of the Founding Fathers who believed in a vague sense of fate or providence, I suspect they might today be considered atheists. But do most atheists consider their unbelief a major organizing and guiding principle? No I don't think so, it is more like a shrug of the shoulders, "Nope, I don't buy into the idea that there is someone up their directing traffic, or that when you are dead you are anything more than dead. But, if believing floats your boat go right ahead." We believers feel that our belief is important and a major influence upon our lives, so we tend to assume and project upon atheists that their unbelief plays a same role in their lives, for the vast majority it does not.
Rob Osborn Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) The atheism movement is a religious belief. Why? Because it sets as an answere concerning the doctrine of in whom we should, or- should not believe in. Lets not forget that Satans church- the church of the devil, also teaches and sets as an answer of whom we should and should not believe in. Based on this fact, the mere name or definition "atheism" is not a religion in and of itself just as the word "god" is also not a religion. But, when you take those words and establish a church, congregation or following with set leaders then it does indeed become a religion and takes the name by which that congregation, followers, etc, define their beliefs by and agree upon. http://www.SundayAssembly.com is one such atheist group who share a common doctrine concerning in whom we should or should not believe in and is thus a religion. Edited November 12, 2013 by Rob Osborn
Stone holm Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 The atheism movement is a religious belief. Why? Because it sets as an answere concerning the doctrine of in whom we should, or- should not believe in. Lets not forget that Satans church- the church of the devil, also teaches and sets as an answer of whom we should and should not believe in. Based on this fact, the mere name or definition "atheism" is not a religion in and of itself just as the word "god" is also not a religion. But, when you take those words and establish a church, congregation or following with set leaders then it does indeed become a religion and takes the name by which that congregation, followers, etc, define their beliefs by and agree upon. Www.sundayassembly.com is thus an organized group who share a common doctrine concerning in whom we should or should not believe in and is thus a religion.Except people who are organized atheists are very few in number compared with the huge and growing number of non believers. You are projecting the fervency and importance of your belief to you, onto atheists in general and assuming their unbelief plays a similar role. It may for a very few, but for the vast majority it does not. Religion and the supranatural is simply something they are not interested in.
Rob Osborn Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 Except people who are organized atheists are very few in number compared with the huge and growing number of non believers. You are projecting the fervency and importance of your belief to you, onto atheists in general and assuming their unbelief plays a similar role. It may for a very few, but for the vast majority it does not. Religion and the supranatural is simply something they are not interested in. Its all in the semantics though. They dont want to be identified with any belief in god and also dont want to be associated with "religion" as defined by "an assembly of believers who share a common or shared belief" but in so doing they form exactly what they disbelieve in- a religion. Call it what it is but in truth they set up their own oxymoron.
Rob Osborn Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 Its kinda like saying- "I dont believe in groups who would share similar beliefs, now...how to organize a group of these..."
Stone holm Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 Its all in the semantics though. They dont want to be identified with any belief in god and also dont want to be associated with "religion" as defined by "an assembly of believers who share a common or shared belief" but in so doing they form exactly what they disbelieve in- a religion. Call it what it is but in truth they set up their own oxymoron.Except, that assembly you speak of represents a very, very small proportion. The rest just don't see any relevance and their unbelief has about as much impact on how they conduct their lives as say our disbelief in fairies...I was going to say Santa Claus but regardless of our belief in that elf he has a greater influence upon most atheists than their disbelief in God.
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