Rob Osborn Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 I'm not trying to "twist" anything. I'm not an atheist, but I don't like seeing people misrepresent others' beliefs. I feel the same when I see non-LDS misrepresent LDS belief: I try to correct the misrepresentation, even though I am no longer a believing member of the LDS church. If we're going to discuss differences, we ought to at least respect people's right to define their own beliefs. I'm not sure why you feel otherwise.I know what a belief is. I also understand that lacking a belief is not the same as having a belief. That I don't find evidence of UFOs particularly compelling does not mean that I emphatically deny their existence. In the same way, most atheists I know do not believe there is evidence for the existence of God, but they do not assert that there is no God, period, despite your efforts to put those words in their mouths.Let m etry again- A "belief" is anything including a disbelief of something that a person adheres to. For an atheist his belief is that gods do not exist. The term" lacking belief" is a context issue that isnt effected in defining how one defines "belief system". My belief system includes a lack of belief of lots of things. For example- My belief system includes the disbelief of the flying spaghetti monster- thats part of my belief system. Belief systems include all things a person believes. Belief in the disbelief of something is stilll and always should be considered part of what a person believes in. Let me put it this wayhere are two questions answered by atheists- Do theists believe there is a god? YesDo atheists believe there is no god? Yes Note how I use the word "believe" in the proper context. This is what i am trying to get at here.
Rob Osborn Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Again, Analytics has already told you what he and other atheists believe. Why can't you just accept that he knows what he believes instead of trying to tell him what you think he really believes?I already know what atheists believe though- they believe there is no god. You cannot arrive at the conclusion of "atheist" without a person having a belief that there is no god.
jkwilliams Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Let m etry again- A "belief" is anything including a disbelief of something that a person adheres to. That makes no sense. For an atheist his belief is that gods do not exist. Once again, that is wrong. You can keep repeating this over and over, but it's your belief about atheists, not the belief of actual atheists. The term" lacking belief" is a context issue that isnt effected in defining how one defines "belief system". My belief system includes a lack of belief of lots of things. For example- My belief system includes the disbelief of the flying spaghetti monster- thats part of my belief system. Belief systems include all things a person believes. Belief in the disbelief of something is stilll and always should be considered part of what a person believes in. Belief is not the same as disbelief. It never has been and never will be. Let me put it this wayhere are two questions answered by atheists- Do theists believe there is a god? Yes So far, so good. Do atheists believe there is no god? Yes No, that is not what they believe. Analytics has told you repeatedly what he believes, and you ignore it. Why? Note how I use the word "believe" in the proper context. This is what i am trying to get at here. You're trying to impose your own beliefs about atheists on others.
jkwilliams Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 I already know what atheists believe though- they believe there is no god. You cannot arrive at the conclusion of "atheist" without a person having a belief that there is no god. I'll just say this again: you can choose to listen to what other people tell you about their beliefs, or you can ignore them. You've chosen to ignore them, as is your right, but unfortunately you can't do that and expect to have a productive conversation about each other's beliefs.
Stone holm Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Let m etry again- A "belief" is anything including a disbelief of something that a person adheres to. For an atheist his belief is that gods do not exist. The term" lacking belief" is a context issue that isnt effected in defining how one defines "belief system". My belief system includes a lack of belief of lots of things. For example- My belief system includes the disbelief of the flying spaghetti monster- thats part of my belief system. Belief systems include all things a person believes. Belief in the disbelief of something is stilll and always should be considered part of what a person believes in. Let me put it this wayhere are two questions answered by atheists- Do theists believe there is a god? YesDo atheists believe there is no god? Yes Note how I use the word "believe" in the proper context. This is what i am trying to get at here. Yes, but you are using "believe" to connote the existence of religion. I do not believe the Easter Bunny exists does that make me a member of a religion that has certain beliefs in the non-existence of the Easter Bunny? No it doesn't. Does the fact that someone doesn't believe in god or gods mean that they belong to a religion? No. Now somebody might actually have such a passionate life influencing non-belief in god that it is religion like -- but those are pretty rare.
pmccombs1 Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 (edited) I already know what atheists believe though- they believe there is no god. You cannot arrive at the conclusion of "atheist" without a person having a belief that there is no god. If you have been following the discussion, I think that this description fits what Analytics had labeled "Hard Atheists." These are the atheists who make a positive claim that there is no God. But apparently this kind of atheist does not account for the whole of atheism. There are many atheists who do not make this claim, but inhabit a more agnostic position, which is that because they lack a cause to believe, they simply do not accept a positive claim for the existence of God. But they also will not say that "there is no God." For them, there might be a God, but there is no reason to believe in one. Analytics is just trying to point out that disbelief is not the same thing as denial, which you seem not to accept. Disbelief is an attitude of "give me a reason" while denial is an attitude of "I've made up my mind." Edited November 13, 2013 by pmccombs1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 (edited) If you have been following the discussion, I think that this description fits what Analytics had labeled "Hard Atheists." These are the atheists who make a positive claim that there is no God. Actually it was me that first used the term. Ha. Carry on though, some good thoughts. Edited November 13, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Ahab Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 There have been atheist posters thru the years who have strongly denied any implication that atheism was a religion, or at all comparable in dogmatism to religious churches.I read an article on Yahoo this morning though which describes a new movement among atheists-atheist mega churches. http://news.yahoo.com/atheist-mega-churches-root-across-us-world-214619648.html I'm wondering how atheists in general are responding to this. Do we still have atheist posters on here that can comment? Can atheism be legitimately described as a religion? How much of this issue is just semantics? Things that are true are still true even though some people deny they are true. God lives, and yes atheism is a religion.
pmccombs1 Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Things that are true are still true even though some people deny they are true. God lives, and yes atheism is a religion. Except we are learning that not all atheists deny "things that are true." They are simply stating that there is no cause to believe those things are true, therefore they don't believe them. Which is different from denying them.
Ahab Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Except we are learning that not all atheists deny "things that are true." They are simply stating that there is no cause to believe those things are true, therefore they don't believe them. Which is different from denying them.Except there is a cause to believe things that are true are true, and thus they deny what is true. I wasn't talking about agnostics. Atheists are in their own religion.
jkwilliams Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Except there is a cause to believe things that are true are true, and thus they deny what is true. I wasn't talking about agnostics. Atheists are in their own religion. Ah, so you're conflating hard atheists with garden-variety atheists, too. We've been discussing the latter.
pmccombs1 Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Except there is a cause to believe things that are true are true, and thus they deny what is true. I wasn't talking about agnostics. Atheists are in their own religion. Well, we've learned that actually many atheists define themselves in a way that I also would have called "agnostic." And what you consider is a cause for belief, they don't consider is a reasonable cause. So they don't believe, but they also don't deny.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Ah, so you're conflating hard atheists with garden-variety atheists, too. We've been discussing the latter.That might be partly my fault. I realized a few pages into this thread that there needed to be a distinction between the 2.
jkwilliams Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 That might be partly my fault. I realized a few pages into this thread that there needed to be a distinction between the 2. Yes, there does need to be a distinction. I think in the past I assumed, as apparently many do, that all atheists are "hard" atheists who deny the existence of God. I've since learned otherwise.
Ahab Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Well, we've learned that actually many atheists define themselves in a way that I also would have called "agnostic." And what you consider is a cause for belief, they don't consider is a reasonable cause. So they don't believe, but they also don't deny. I wasn't talking about agnostics who call themselves atheists. I'm talkng about atheists, and I know agnostics also have their own religion. And let's just keep that other issue very simple: Anyone who doesn't accept that something is true is in fact denying that it is true. Atheists are the people who do not accept the idea that God does, in truth, actually live... and there are many subsets of their one main religion.
Ahab Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Yes, there does need to be a distinction. I think in the past I assumed, as apparently many do, that all atheists are "hard" atheists who deny the existence of God. I've since learned otherwise.When someone denies or doesn't accept the idea that God lives, then they are in truth an atheist. What you've got when you've got an atheist who denies or doesn't believe he or she is an atheist, while still denying or not believing in God, is a really hard-headed atheist.
Stone holm Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Yes, there does need to be a distinction. I think in the past I assumed, as apparently many do, that all atheists are "hard" atheists who deny the existence of God. I've since learned otherwise. In certain communities, and I would include a Mormon community where there are enough to make them fairly dominant, the way atheists are described is basically the way the Christian Right describes them -- and that may be something of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts because it has been my experience that nothing creates community and a binding together as deep and overt persecution by groups of others. So if you have people out their claiming all sorts of things about atheists like they are all communists, or they are worshipers of Satan, or whatever....eventually that pushes the people together in self-defense. So if there are groups of atheists banding together to form organized groups, we shouldn't be looking to Satan really as the cause -- but rather the Christian Right (including some hard right Mormons.)
pmccombs1 Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 I wasn't talking about agnostics who call themselves atheists. I'm talkng about atheists, and I know agnostics also have their own religion. And let's just keep that other issue very simple: Anyone who doesn't accept that something is true is in fact denying that it is true. Atheists are the people who do not accept the idea that God does, in truth, actually live... and there are many subsets of their one main religion. I guess it boils down to whether or not you allow people to speak for themselves, or if you demand that they accept the labels you have chosen for them. In other quarters, I know of people who refuse to allow that Mormons believe in Jesus or that they are Christian, in spite of the protests of those Mormons so unwillingly redefined. You sound an awful lot like those who can't accept that Mormons are Christian. And let's just keep that other issue very simple: Anyone who doesn't accept that something is true is in fact denying that it is true. I guess that keeping complex issues simple is a good way to justify a lot of cruelty, like the kind that denies people a voice for themselves. This is the exact problem of certainty, that awful and unjustifiable thing that destroys faith, hope, and charity alike--the devil's favorite little plaything. You have to understand that human action isn't very often influenced by actual reality, which is a tricky thing to navigate. Instead, we have voices and narratives. What the atheist is denying, if anything, is the authority of the voice, or of the story it tells. The atheist does not feel confident about making claims about the reality itself, or that others are justified in asserting something about it. This atheism, then, is about who or what has power over personal belief and not about denying truth.
Rob Osborn Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Yes, but you are using "believe" to connote the existence of religion. I do not believe the Easter Bunny exists does that make me a member of a religion that has certain beliefs in the non-existence of the Easter Bunny? No it doesn't. Does the fact that someone doesn't believe in god or gods mean that they belong to a religion? No. Now somebody might actually have such a passionate life influencing non-belief in god that it is religion like -- but those are pretty rare.To clarify I am not using "belief" to couple it in a religious sense thus making atheism a religion based solely on that. I believe in UFO's but that doesnt make it religious...get my drift?I am using the word in the sense of trying to establish what exactly it is that atheists believe. To be labled an atheist one has to have the belief that god doesnt exist.
Analytics Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 When someone denies or doesn't accept the idea that God lives, then they are in truth an atheist. What you've got when you've got an atheist who denies or doesn't believe he or she is an atheist, while still denying or not believing in God, is a really hard-headed atheist. For your enjoyment, here is an essay that proves that the Mormon God isn't the "real" God, and that therefore, Mormons are atheists, and according to your use of the terms, probably hard-headed atheists at that: http://randalrauser.com/2012/02/why-mormons-are-probably-atheists/
Ahab Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 I guess it boils down to whether or not you allow people to speak for themselves, or if you demand that they accept the labels you have chosen for them. In other quarters, I know of people who refuse to allow that Mormons believe in Jesus or that they are Christian, in spite of the protests of those Mormons so unwillingly redefined. You sound an awful lot like those who can't accept that Mormons are Christian. I guess that keeping complex issues simple is a good way to justify a lot of cruelty, like the kind that denies people a voice for themselves. This is the exact problem of certainty, that awful and unjustifiable thing that destroys faith, hope, and charity alike--the devil's favorite little plaything. You have to understand that human action isn't very often influenced by actual reality, which is a tricky thing to navigate. Instead, we have voices and narratives. What the atheist is denying, if anything, is the authority of the voice, or of the story it tells. The atheist does not feel confident about making claims about the reality itself, or that others are justified in asserting something about it. This atheism, then, is about who or what has power over personal belief and not about denying truth.My main point in this thread has been this: Things that are true are true even when people deny they are true... and yes atheists have their own religion and they can say whatever they want to deny with their own voice even when what they are saying is not true. The fact that atheists think they have a good reason to deny or not believe in God doesn't mean they have a good reason, even though they may think they really do. All that does is identify them as an atheist, which is someone who denies or does not believe that God lives. An agnostic comes pretty close to that point but is a little bit different, with their main point being that they do not know while being more open to the possibility.
pmccombs1 Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 To clarify I am not using "belief" to couple it in a religious sense thus making atheism a religion based solely on that. I believe in UFO's but that doesnt make it religious...get my drift?I am using the word in the sense of trying to establish what exactly it is that atheists believe. To be labled an atheist one has to have the belief that god doesnt exist. Incorrect. To be labeled an atheist is to believe that the claim that God exists is not justified.
Stone holm Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 For your enjoyment, here is an essay that proves that the Mormon God isn't the "real" God, and that therefore, Mormons are atheists, and according to your use of the terms, probably hard-headed atheists at that: http://randalrauser.com/2012/02/why-mormons-are-probably-atheists/ Yeah and I am fairly certain you can find articles that say everything that is fired at atheists at Mormons. Why is it that people insist on behaving this way?
Ahab Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 For your enjoyment, here is an essay that proves that the Mormon God isn't the "real" God, and that therefore, Mormons are atheists, and according to your use of the terms, probably hard-headed atheists at that: http://randalrauser.com/2012/02/why-mormons-are-probably-atheists/Thank you for the comic relief.
changed Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 I know two atheists who are active members in a church - one is Jewish - he does not believe in God, but he does not want to lose his heritage, so he is very active in his Jewish community. Another athiest I know is also Mormon, and directs the music in his ward. They both love church, and the community that comes with it.
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