Atheism Not A Religion?

[thesometimesaint]

I disagree. Analytics has explained what he believes as an atheist, and everyone here is telling him either that he's really an atheist and doesn't know it, or that he's not an atheist at all. Not only that, but they are telling him what you have to believe to consider yourself an atheist.  

 

If that's not telling people what they really believe, I don't know what it is.

 

I have been using the dictionary as my source for the meanings of the words I use. You can disagree with the dictionary all you want, but doing so really doesn't promote understanding. Again I have no problem with atheists. My sister is an atheist and my brother is an agnostic, I love them more than I can say. We just have very different ideas about God.

[Ahab]

Ahab's post suggested that some people don't recognize they are atheists but that people like him know who is a real atheist or not. He was talking about labeling other people and who gets to define other people's beliefs and what labels they use to describe themselves. Seems a bit presumptuous to tell someone they aren't really what they think they are because you know better.

You neglected to mention the fact that the way I know whether or not someone fits the definition of atheist is by them telling me whether or not they believe there is a God (a supreme being).  They're essentially revealing the fact that they are atheists, even if they don't refer to themselves by that name.  They still fit the definition, though, so they still really are one.

[jkwilliams]

You neglected to mention the fact that the way I know whether or not someone fits the definition of atheist is by them telling me whether or not they believe there is a God (a supreme being).  They're essentially revealing the fact that they are atheists, even if they don't refer to themselves by that name.  They still fit the definition, though, so they still really are one.

 

If I don't believe in God, I'm an atheist. What you and others have been saying is that expressing a lack of belief is the same as expressing a positive belief in the nonexistence of God. They are different.

Edited November 14, 2013 by jkwilliams

[Ahab]

Putting aside Ahab's comments which mine have nothing to do with his as I largley disagree with him. I have not read or paid attention to his posts. What I am getting at is what people do when they try to interpret what an athiest means to their point of view. OR what an LDS means to an EV's point of view. That is a different thing than trying to let some one define their beliefs. And to a certain extent is some what futile. As you might know there are EV's that refuse LDS the title of Christian no matter how good the LDS position is argued. Also please note that regarding the validity of an argument for or against something is some what irrelvant to what I am getting at.

You actually agree with me more than you disagree with me on this issue, Mola, even if you were to deny that you do.

[thesometimesaint]

If I don't believe in God, I'm an atheist. What you and others have saying is that expressing a lack of belief is the same as expressing a positive belief in the nonexistence of God. They are different.

 

IF there is I sure don't see it.

 

See Atheism. https://www.google.com/search?q=atheism+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

a·the·ism

ˈāTHēˌizəm/

noun

noun: atheism

1. 1.

   disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

   synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; More

   nihilism

   "atheism was not freely discussed in his community"

[Ahab]

If I don't believe in God, I'm an atheist. What you and others have saying is that expressing a lack of belief is the same as expressing a positive belief in the nonexistence of God. They are different.

No, I'm not on the "lack of belief" bandwagon.  I've been talking about whether or not someone believes there is a God.  If you don't believe there is a God (a supreme being), then you are atheist, and if you believe there is a God, then you are theist.  And it doesn't matter as to what ideas you may have about what kind of a being God is.  All you need to believe to be able to believe in God is that there is a supreme being, and if you believe there is a supreme being, then you're not atheist.

 

Analytics basically admitted that atheists should concede to the fact that there is a supreme being among all kinds of beings, so I no longer consider him to be atheist, and I'm pretty sure you're not either.  But then again, if you were to say you believe there is no supreme being among all kinds of beings, then I would say you are one even though I would still find your position untenable and reflecting a lack of intelligent thought.

[jkwilliams]

 

IF there is I sure don't see it.

 

See Atheism. https://www.google.com/search?q=atheism+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

a·the·ism

ˈāTHēˌizəm/

noun

noun: atheism

1. 1.

   disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

   synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; More

   nihilism

   "atheism was not freely discussed in his community"

 

 

Take these two statements:

 

1. I don't believe in God.

2. I believe there is no God.

 

One expresses lack of belief (atheism). The other expresses a positive belief (hard atheism, for want of a better term).

[Ahab]

Take these two statements:

 

1. I don't believe in God.

2. I believe there is no God.

 

One expresses lack of belief (atheism). The other expresses a positive belief (hard atheism, for want of a better term).

There's a big difference between not believing in the existence of God and not believing in God.  A person can believe in the existence of God and still not believe IN God.  To believe in God involves having faith that God will do what he says, and you may lack that even though you may know that he lives and told you what you heard.  Like some people who saw Jesus Christ during his mortal ministry and knew that he lived but still didn't believe in him.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You actually agree with me more than you disagree with me on this issue, Mola, even if you were to deny that you do.

That maybe. Carry on.

[jkwilliams]

No, I'm not on the "lack of belief" bandwagon.  I've been talking about whether or not someone believes there is a God.  If you don't believe there is a God (a supreme being), then you are atheist, and if you believe there is a God, then you are theist.  And it doesn't matter as to what ideas you may have about what kind of a being God is.  All you need to believe to be able to believe in God is that there is a supreme being, and if you believe there is a supreme being, then you're not atheist.

 

Analytics basically admitted that atheists should concede to the fact that there is a supreme being among all kinds of beings, so I no longer consider him to be atheist, and I'm pretty sure you're not either.  But then again, if you were to say you believe there is no supreme being among all kinds of beings, then I would say you are one even though I would still find your position untenable and reflecting a lack of intelligent thought.

 

I didn't see that concession. What I saw is that you'd have to agree on what makes a supreme being, and that of course would be pretty arbitrary. How would one determine a "supreme being"?

 

The way I see it, the supreme beings are those that survive.

[thesometimesaint]

Take these two statements:

 

1. I don't believe in God.

2. I believe there is no God.

 

One expresses lack of belief (atheism). The other expresses a positive belief (hard atheism, for want of a better term).

I have consistently used the dictionary as my standard. You appear to be using a nonstandard meaning to bifurcate the argument. Again you are entitled to do that. But doing that really doesn't promote understanding.

 

I don't know how many different ways I can say it. There are just about as many ways to be atheistic as there are atheists. Just like there are just about as many ways to be theistic as there are theists. The atheists are still atheistic and the theists are still theists.

[Analytics]

 

IF there is I sure don't see it.

 

See Atheism. https://www.google.com/search?q=atheism+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

a·the·ism

ˈāTHēˌizəm/

noun

noun: atheism

2. 1.

   disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

   synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; More

   nihilism

   "atheism was not freely discussed in his community"

 

 

Dictionary.com has the following explanation of synonyms under the atheist entry:

 

ATHEIST, AGNOSTIC, INFIDEL, SKEPTIC refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.

 

Note the following:

 

“To disbelieve” means “to have no belief in.”  So, if somebody lacks belief in God, they disbelieve in God and is an atheist according to your definition.

 

Second, note that agnostic means “one who believes it is impossible to know anything about God.”  So according to the dictionary, an agnostic isn’t somebody who shrugs his shoulders and doesn't believe anything.  An agnostic is somebody with the positive belief that it is impossible to know.

 

Because of that, when somebody has thought this through and has the humble position that he both lacks belief in god(s) and also lacks the belief that it is impossible to know, he can’t be called an agnostic—agnostics think it is impossible to know.  The best fit for such a person—according to the definition you cited—is atheist.

 

Please believe me that when people who lack belief in God choose to call themselves atheist, it isn’t because they think calling themselves atheists will improve their standing in society.

[Ahab]

I didn't see that concession. What I saw is that you'd have to agree on what makes a supreme being, and that of course would be pretty arbitrary. How would one determine a "supreme being"?

 

The way I see it, the supreme beings are those that survive.

I didn't concede because I never agreed with that idea and I never said that I did... regarding atheism being a lack of belief in God.

 

And I also didn't say someone had to agree on  "what" made a supreme being a supreme being to no longer be defined as atheist. 

 

To believe in the existence of God all it takes is to believe there is a supreme being among all the beings in existence, rather than believing all beings are the same and there are no higher or lower orders of beings.

 

You do clearly see that man is the most supreme kind of being on this planet, don't you?  Do you believe life exists anywhere else in the universe?  If not then you should consider the kind of being man is to be the "God" kind, and if you do it would take another kind of being more supreme than man to make man not the most supreme kind of being in all of existence.

[jkwilliams]

I have consistently used the dictionary as my standard. You appear to be using a nonstandard meaning to bifurcate the argument. Again you are entitled to do that. But doing that really doesn't promote understanding.

 

I don't know how many different ways I can say it. There are just about as many ways to be atheistic as there are atheists. Just like there are just about as many ways to be theistic as there are theists. The atheists are still atheistic and the theists are still theists.

 

My definition (1) above is perfectly consistent with the dictionary definition you gave: "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods." What you are trying to pin on Analytics and others is the second of my definitions, which you might notice is not in the dictionary definition you gave. He's said over and over that the second definition does not describe his belief or the belief of most atheists he knows.

 

What I'm trying to promote is understanding based on what people actually believe, and the best way to get at that is to listen to them. For whatever reason, this whole thread has been about labeling people and holding them to beliefs they don't actually have. I don't see the point.

[Analytics]

I didn't concede because I never agreed with that idea and I never said that I did... regarding atheism being a lack of belief in God.

 

And I also didn't say someone had to agree on  "what" made a supreme being a supreme being to no longer be defined as atheist. 

 

To believe in the existence of God all it takes is to believe there is a supreme being among all the beings in existence, rather than believing all beings are the same and there are no higher or lower orders of beings.

 

You do clearly see that man is the most supreme kind of being on this planet, don't you?  Do you believe life exists anywhere else in the universe?  If not then you should consider the kind of being man is to be the "God" kind, and if you do it would take another kind of being more supreme than man to make man not the most supreme kind of being in all of existence.

 

For the sake of argument....

 

I believe there are an infinite number of beings in the universe.  I also believe that the beings can be ranked, and that the rankings go infinitely high.  By this I mean that for any being you idenity, I can identify a higher being.  Since there is no being without a superior, there is no supreme being.  Thus I'm an atheist.

[Analytics]

My definition (1) above is perfectly consistent with the dictionary definition you gave: "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

 

Correct. It's worth noting that the dictionary definition of "disbelief" is "the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true."  Refusing or not being able to believe in something means you lack belief in that something.

[Rob Osborn]

My definition (1) above is perfectly consistent with the dictionary definition you gave: "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods." What you are trying to pin on Analytics and others is the second of my definitions, which you might notice is not in the dictionary definition you gave. He's said over and over that the second definition does not describe his belief or the belief of most atheists he knows.

 

What I'm trying to promote is understanding based on what people actually believe, and the best way to get at that is to listen to them. For whatever reason, this whole thread has been about labeling people and holding them to beliefs they don't actually have. I don't see the point.

I dont understand why  you would discount #2 from the list as not being the definition of atheist-

 

1. I don't believe in God.

2. I believe there is no God.

 

As was previously mentioned #1 can still fit under the definition of knowing there is a god but not believing in his ways. This is where Satan comes in and fits under- Satan knows there is a god/gods but doesnt agree with him and so he is in the group of those who have chosen not to believe in him. This is why this definition of atheism fails. Atheism deals with defining those who believe there is no god/gods. This is their actual belief- that there is no god/gods.  

[jkwilliams]

I didn't concede because I never agreed with that idea and I never said that I did... regarding atheism being a lack of belief in God.

 

And I also didn't say someone had to agree on  "what" made a supreme being a supreme being to no longer be defined as atheist. 

 

To believe in the existence of God all it takes is to believe there is a supreme being among all the beings in existence, rather than believing all beings are the same and there are no higher or lower orders of beings.

 

You do clearly see that man is the most supreme kind of being on this planet, don't you?  Do you believe life exists anywhere else in the universe?  If not then you should consider the kind of being man is to be the "God" kind, and if you do it would take another kind of being more supreme than man to make man not the most supreme kind of being in all of existence.

 

Are humans the most supreme kind of being on the planet? I suppose it depends on your definition of "supreme."

[Rob Osborn]

What we have to establish is how to use the word "belief" if we are ever going to get anywhere in this conversation. If we can readily agree on this premise-

 

Theists have the belief that- god/gods exists

Atheists have the belief that- god/gods do not exist.

 

Agnostics actually have the "lack of belief. Thus to prove this it would be improper to state-

 

Atheists have the lack of belief that- god/gods do not exist

[jkwilliams]

I dont understand why  you would discount #2 from the list as not being the definition of atheist-

 

1. I don't believe in God.

2. I believe there is no God.

 

As was previously mentioned #1 can still fit under the definition of knowing there is a god but not believing in his ways. This is where Satan comes in and fits under- Satan knows there is a god/gods but doesnt agree with him and so he is in the group of those who have chosen not to believe in him. This is why this definition of atheism fails. Atheism deals with defining those who believe there is no god/gods. This is their actual belief- that there is no god/gods.  

 

Let me clarify:

 

1. I do not believe God exists.

2. I believe God does not exist.

 

There is a difference. Satan would reject the first one as well as the second.

[Ahab]

For the sake of argument....

 

I believe there are an infinite number of beings in the universe.  I also believe that the beings can be ranked, and that the rankings go infinitely high. By this I mean that for any being you idenity, I can identify a higher being. Since there is no being without a superior, there is no supreme being. Thus I'm an atheist.

I'll take that as what you believe.  Now I'll try to show you why I think you should examine your beliefs more closely to find errors in your reasoning.

 

If there were an infinite number of beings there would be beings everywhere, without any space where there are no beings.  Not just here on this planet, but everywhere else in space throughout what there is in the universe.  Even if the universe went on forever and ever and there was some more of the universe that we on this planet were not aware of now, there would be no end to the number of beings there are.

 

I also believe that the beings can be ranked, and that the rankings go infinitely high.

Same idea as above, except there would be no end to the different kinds of beings both here and everywhere else in the universe, with there also being no such thing as "everywhere".

 

By this I mean that for any being you idenity, I can identify a higher being. Since there is no being without a superior, there is no supreme being. Thus I'm an atheist.

It is impossible for you to identify or even describe a more supreme being than the kind of being that I know God is, and if you were to try you would at least be acknowledging the being that I know is God rather than saying that God does not exist.

[Rob Osborn]

Let me clarify:

 

1. I do not believe God exists.

2. I believe God does not exist.

 

There is a difference. Satan would reject the first one as well as the second.

Yes its true, satan does reject both as far as what he verbally states to us. But, we also know he is a liar and not an atheist because he actually does have the knowledge that there is a god. Satan is a theist, he knows there is a god and is trying to destroy him and his kingdom.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Rob Osborn

[jkwilliams]

Yes its true, satan does reject both as far as what he verbally states to us. But, we also know he is a liar and not an atheist because he actually does have the knowledge that there is a god. Satan is a theist, he knows there is a god and is trying to destroy him and his kingdom.

 

So, you're acknowledging that atheists are those who simply lack belief in God but may not actively deny the existence of God. That's progress.

[Rob Osborn]

So, you're acknowledging that atheists are those who simply lack belief in God but may not actively deny the existence of God. That's progress.

No, that is not what I am saying. Please read carefully-

 

Atheists are those who have a firm belief that god does not exist- they actively do deny the existence of god based on their belief- their actual belief, that god doesnt nor can exist. Thats almost completely opposite of what you posted.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Rob Osborn

[jkwilliams]

I'll take that as what you believe.  Now I'll try to show you why I think you should examine your beliefs more closely to find errors in your reasoning.

 

If there were an infinite number of beings there would be beings everywhere, without any space where there are no beings.  Not just here on this planet, but everywhere else in space throughout what there is in the universe.  Even if the universe went on forever and ever and there was some more of the universe that we on this planet were not aware of now, there would be no end to the number of beings there are.

 

 

 

Same idea as above, except there would be no end to the different kinds of beings both here and everywhere else in the universe, with there also being no such thing as "everywhere".

 

 

 

It is impossible for you to identify or even describe a more supreme being than the kind of being that I know God is, and if you were to try you would at least be acknowledging the being that I know is God rather than saying that God does not exist.

 

Hmmm. In LDS theology, God is not all powerful but is bound by the laws of the universe. If I believe in an all-powerful being who is not thus constrained, that would be a more supreme being than what Mormon doctrine describes. Also, in LDS theology, God has a Father, and His Father is glorified by His exaltation and glory. The same is true of God's Father, and His Father, and so on. So, there really is an infinite number of beings and Gods.