New Blog Post About My Research On The Cross Taboo

[Mike Reed]

I've added a few links to photos not included in my book.  Enjoy! "...Almost every argument that Mormons have used to justify their opposition to the cross was promoted by Protestants before the cross taboo emerged in Mormon culture..."

http://rationalfaiths.com/banishing-the-cross/

[ERayR]

And this is relevant, how?

[jkwilliams]

And this is relevant, how?

 

This is just a guess, but I'm thinking Mike believes that the Mormon taboo on wearing/displaying the cross is relevant to Mormonism.

[halconero]

And this is relevant, how?

 

Considering this is the first paragraph:

 

"Almost every argument that Mormons have used to justify their opposition to the cross (i.e. the symbol being pagan, Catholic, an idol, an instrument of torture, a symbol of death, the Mark of the Beast, or simply too much in vogue) was promoted by Protestants long before the cross taboo emerged in Mormon culture."

 

Definitely relevant.

[teddyaware]

I've added a few links to photos not included in my book.  Enjoy! "...Almost every argument that Mormons have used to justify their opposition to the cross was promoted by Protestants before the cross taboo emerged in Mormon culture..."

http://rationalfaiths.com/banishing-the-cross/

Mike:

I've said it before and now I say it once again: In light of the LDS temple worship liturgy, it's totally absurd to say the LDS religion doesn't place utmost importance on the symbolism of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Without the applied symbols of Christ's crucifixion, there is no entry into or salvation within the Celestial Kingdom; without said crucifixion symbolism, there is no salvation of the dead; without this crucifixion symbolism, there is no eternal marriage, eternal families, and eternal increase. The fact that the overwhelming importance of crucifixion symbolism in the LDS Church goes over the heads of 99.999% of its adherents doesn't mean it's not there and that it isn't of critical and indispensable importance. In the LDS religion, the crucifixion symbolism of the Saviour is of far more importance to salvation than it is in any other religion.

Edited October 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[why me]

 

I've added a few links to photos not included in my book.  Enjoy! "...Almost every argument that Mormons have used to justify their opposition to the cross was promoted by Protestants before the cross taboo emerged in Mormon culture..."

http://rationalfaiths.com/banishing-the-cross/

 

I don't know why this matters so much too you. You seem to be focused on this one issue for ages now. I think that the lds church realized that the cross was not conducive to LDS ideas or teachings. And especially a cross with a dying christ as displayed in catholic churches.

 

I think that in the catholic faith, the depiction of christ on the cross is a symbol of suffering. In fact, the idea of suffering is central in the catholic faith.

 

http://www.integratedcatholiclife.org/2013/01/ask-a-carmelite-faith-and-suffering/

 

I don't that the lds share such a perspective as the catholics do. I see the lds church as a church that promotes the living christ and not only that...but a loving and very real heavenly father who appeard to Joseph in the woods along with his son. This is the image that the lds church has of both. So, I think that the lds church has been rather radical in not promoting the cross. I don't see the protestant churches rejecting the cross from their places of worship. I think that one can still find the cross present in quite a few traditional protestant churches and at the time of Joseph Smith I think that most had the cross in the church building.

[David T]

I don't know why this matters so much too you.

 

Because it's a fascinating aspect of the development of our cultural history, that's why. And your comments show that you're not very aware of his research.

Edited October 23, 2013 by David T

[ChristKnight]

I don't know why this matters so much too you. You seem to be focused on this one issue for ages now. I think that the lds church realized that the cross was not conducive to LDS ideas or teachings. And especially a cross with a dying christ as displayed in catholic churches.

 

I think that in the catholic faith, the depiction of christ on the cross is a symbol of suffering. In fact, the idea of suffering is central in the catholic faith.

 

http://www.integratedcatholiclife.org/2013/01/ask-a-carmelite-faith-and-suffering/

 

I don't that the lds share such a perspective as the catholics do. I see the lds church as a church that promotes the living christ and not only that...but a loving and very real heavenly father who appeard to Joseph in the woods along with his son. This is the image that the lds church has of both. So, I think that the lds church has been rather radical in not promoting the cross. I don't see the protestant churches rejecting the cross from their places of worship. I think that one can still find the cross present in quite a few traditional protestant churches and at the time of Joseph Smith I think that most had the cross in the church building.

 

FWIW, the Catholic Church emphasizes both the suffering and the risen, living Christ.  It isn't either/or.

[David T]

FWIW, the Catholic Church emphasizes both the suffering and the risen, living Christ.  It isn't either/or.

 

In fact, Pope Francis just tweeted this yesterday: "The crucifix does not signify defeat or failure.  It reveals to us the Love that overcomes evil and sin."

[Mike Reed]

Teddyware, the temple endowment was largely produced under Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, both of whom did not share the 20th-21st century taboo.    Moreover, although I appreciate your observation about the endowment and the cross/crucifixion (I made similar ones in my book, actually), I hardly think your observation is reflective of mainstream Mormon view of the cross today.  But fortunately things evolve in Mormon culture, and who knows...? they may one day return to embracing the material/visual symbol of the cross.  It may be that my book can actually help with this transition.

 

You later wrote, "In the LDS religion, the crucifixion symbolism of the Saviour is of far more importance to salvation than it is in any other religion." I don't  agree with this at all.

[jkwilliams]

I don't know why this matters so much too you. You seem to be focused on this one issue for ages now. I think that the lds church realized that the cross was not conducive to LDS ideas or teachings. And especially a cross with a dying christ as displayed in catholic churches.

It's the subject of his dissertation, IIRC. People tend to be focused on what they're studying in grad school. Just saying.

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[jkwilliams]

By the way, Mike's book received a glowing review from Fiona Givens in the latest issue of Journal of Mormon History. Givens concludes her review with the following:

Doesn't that woman have anything better to do than obsess about such stuff?

Seriously, though, that is a great review, indeed. Congratulations, Mike!

[boulder257]

I don't know why this matters so much too you. You seem to be focused on this one issue for ages now. I think that the lds church realized that the cross was not conducive to LDS ideas or teachings. And especially a cross with a dying christ as displayed in catholic churches.

 

I think that in the catholic faith, the depiction of christ on the cross is a symbol of suffering. In fact, the idea of suffering is central in the catholic faith.

 

http://www.integratedcatholiclife.org/2013/01/ask-a-carmelite-faith-and-suffering/

 

I don't that the lds share such a perspective as the catholics do. I see the lds church as a church that promotes the living christ and not only that...but a loving and very real heavenly father who appeard to Joseph in the woods along with his son. This is the image that the lds church has of both. So, I think that the lds church has been rather radical in not promoting the cross. I don't see the protestant churches rejecting the cross from their places of worship. I think that one can still find the cross present in quite a few traditional protestant churches and at the time of Joseph Smith I think that most had the cross in the church building.

 

I think you may want to spend a little time understanding the Catholic position fo the Crucifix and the cross. You're understanding of it is not representive of the Catholic faith and paints the Catholic faith in a negative light. I would seriously suggest more research before you make such remarks about another religion.

[boulder257]

FWIW, the Catholic Church emphasizes both the suffering and the risen, living Christ.  It isn't either/or.

 

Let us not forget it is not the resurrection of Jesus that saved us but it was his death. I have heard some people say that wearing a cross is like wearing a guillotine. The cross did not save us, it was just the means by which he suffered. His death is what saved each of us.

[teddyaware]

Teddyware, the temple endowment was largely produced under Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, both of whom did not share the 20th-21st century taboo.    Moreover, although I appreciate your observation about the endowment and the cross/crucifixion (I made similar ones in my book, actually), I hardly think your observation is reflective of mainstream Mormon view of the cross today.  But fortunately things evolve in Mormon culture, and who knows...? they may one day return to embracing the material/visual symbol of the cross.  It may be that my book can actually help with this transition.

 

You later wrote, "In the LDS religion, the crucifixion symbolism of the Saviour is of far more importance to salvation than it is in any other religion." I don't  agree with this at all.

[teddyaware]

Teddyware, the temple endowment was largely produced under Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, both of whom did not share the 20th-21st century taboo.    Moreover, although I appreciate your observation about the endowment and the cross/crucifixion (I made similar ones in my book, actually), I hardly think your observation is reflective of mainstream Mormon view of the cross today.  But fortunately things evolve in Mormon culture, and who knows...? they may one day return to embracing the material/visual symbol of the cross.  It may be that my book can actually help with this transition.

 

You later wrote, "In the LDS religion, the crucifixion symbolism of the Saviour is of far more importance to salvation than it is in any other religion." I don't  agree with this at all.

[quote}

You missed my point: I was saying that for some strange reason, which I as yet have not been able to fathom, the import of the crucial and unmistakable role messianic crucifixion symbology plays in our higher forms of worship seems to go over 99.999% of the Church member's heads. They say focusing on Christ's suffering and death is unimportant when compared to focusing on his life, yet messianic suffering and death motifs, most especially crucifixion symbology, permeates our worship. It is a perfect example of seeing yet not seeing, and hearing yet not hearing. The fact that the vast majority of LDS Church members miss the obvious does not mean that messianic crucifixion symbology found in our most sacred worship is not of utmost importance to the salvation of the saints. Just because these perfectly obvious things are missed, and vastly underappreciated, does not mean they are not there for anyone with the eyes to see. Just because something of great importance is ignored and unappreciated does not mean it isn't real and isn't crtically important

Edited October 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[Mike Reed]

Teddyaware: You missed my point: I was saying that for some strange reason, which I as yet have not been able to fathom, the import of the crucial and unmistakable role messianic crucifixion symbology plays in our higher forms of worship seems to go over 99.999% of the Church member's heads. They say focusing on Christ's suffering and death is unimportant when compared to focusing on his life, yet messianic suffering and death motifs, most especially crucifixion symbology, permeates our worship. It is a perfect example of seeing yet not seeing, and hearing yet not hearing. The fact that the vast majority of LDS Church members miss the obvious does not mean that messianic crucifixion symbology found in our most sacred worship is not of utmost importance to the salvation of the saints. Just because these perfectly obvious things are missed, and vastly underappreciated, does not mean they are not there for anyone with the eyes to see. Just because something of great importance is ignored and unappreciated does not mean it isn't real and isn't crtically important

 

 

 

 

I think we agree then.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Mike Reed

[3DOP]

I think you may want to spend a little time understanding the Catholic position fo the Crucifix and the cross. You're understanding of it is not representive of the Catholic faith and paints the Catholic faith in a negative light. I would seriously suggest more research before you make such remarks about another religion.

 

Yes, as with so many other concepts, non-Catholics adopt an either/or mentality toward Gospel teachings that are mutually compatible. Speaking of the Catholic teaching on the value of suffering why me wrote:

"I don't [think] that the lds share such a perspective as the catholics do."

 

---why me, post #6

 

Recall that the CoJCoLDS isn't 200 years old yet. We are 2,000 years. I am not saying they will, but I see nothing in our teachings on suffering, just as I see nothing about a crucifix, that couldn't be incorporated into LDS faith and worship. It may be that MIke Reed's work will lead to a reexamination of this subject and limited LDS perspectives. It IS important to note that LDS do not currently "share such a perspective". But maybe they will with the help of good work like that done by Mr. Reed. We have undergone some development since we were 200 years old too.

Edited October 25, 2013 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

Let us not forget it is not the resurrection of Jesus that saved us but it was his death. I have heard some people say that wearing a cross is like wearing a guillotine. The cross did not save us, it was just the means by which he suffered. His death is what saved each of us.

 

Guillotine. What an ignorant comment. We aren't "celebrating" Jesus' sufferings with a crucifix. We are forcing ourselves to remember always what He did on our behalf. Jesus emphasized that if we would be His disciples, we must bear our own crosses. By picturing our blessed Lord on His Cross, we may often gain the strength to bear our own crosses with more courage. I know you know this boulder. I am preaching to anybody who would think to make an analogy with any other instrument of capital punishment.

 

Behold, O kind and most sweet Jesus, I cast myself on my knees at thy sight, and with the most fervent desire of my soul I pray and beseech Thee that Thou wouldst impress upon my heart lively sentiments of Faith, Hope, and Charity, with true repentance for my sins, and a firm desire of amendment, whilst with deep affection and grief of soul I ponder within myself and mentally contemplate Thy five most precious wounds; having before my eyes that which David spoke in prophecy of Thee, O good Jesus: They have pierced my hands and feet; they have numbered all my bones.

 

---Indulgenced Prayer Before A Crucifix, I Pray the Mass, Sunday Missal, (1942), Catholic Book Publishing Company, p. 437

 

Okay...sometimes I am not as fervent as I should be. But how fervent would I be without the Crucifix which sometimes "brings me to my senses" and wakes me up from the irreligious stupor that offers every manner of alternative image that competes for my imagination? This world needs the Crucifix like it always has, and probably more.

 

3DOP

Edited October 25, 2013 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

Guillotine. What an ignorant comment. We aren't "celebrating" Jesus' sufferings with a crucifix. We are forcing ourselves to remember always what He did on our behalf. Jesus emphasized that if we would be His disciples, we must bear our own crosses. By picturing our blessed Lord on His Cross, we may often gain the strength to bear our own crosses with more courage. I know you know this boulder. I am preaching to anybody who would think to make an analogy with any other instrument of capital punishment.

 

---Indulgenced Prayer Before A Crucifix, I Pray the Mass, Sunday Missal, (1942), Catholic Book Publishing Company, p. 437

 

Okay...sometimes I am not as fervent as I should be. But how fervent would I be without the Crucifix which sometimes "brings me to my senses" and wakes me up from the irreligious stupor that offers every manner of alternative image that competes for my imagination? This world needs the Crucifix like it always has, and probably more.

 

3DOP

 

How else will the prophecy of Zechariah be fulfilled, if we are to emphasize the risen Jesus only? The spirit of grace works to bring to us mourning and grief. So long as we sin, that is, until we hopefully get to heaven, we have a desperate need for this same spirit which is promised to the house of David, of grief and remorse, for it isn't just the Jews as we know who caused our Lord's suffering and passion. But He was pierced for all of the Redeemed and for each of our sins.

 

Zacharias (Zachariah) 12:10

And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.

 

John 19:37

And again another scripture saith: They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Edited October 25, 2013 by 3DOP

[Calm]

It has never made a lot of sense to me when some LDS emphasize the suffering in the Garden (as in the bleeding from every pore) as a crucial element of the Atonement but then go to the point of disparaging the suffering on the cross through attempting to diminish the significance of the cross/crucifix itself.

[Tacenda]

Guillotine. What an ignorant comment. We aren't "celebrating" Jesus' sufferings with a crucifix. We are forcing ourselves to remember always what He did on our behalf. Jesus emphasized that if we would be His disciples, we must bear our own crosses. By picturing our blessed Lord on His Cross, we may often gain the strength to bear our own crosses with more courage. I know you know this boulder. I am preaching to anybody who would think to make an analogy with any other instrument of capital punishment.

---Indulgenced Prayer Before A Crucifix, I Pray the Mass, Sunday Missal, (1942), Catholic Book Publishing Company, p. 437

Okay...sometimes I am not as fervent as I should be. But how fervent would I be without the Crucifix which sometimes "brings me to my senses" and wakes me up from the irreligious stupor that offers every manner of alternative image that competes for my imagination? This world needs the Crucifix like it always has, and probably more.

3DOP

Hear, hear! And I'm afraid to wear my really small cross necklace I bought, because of what my fellow mormons will say/think. How in the world has it come to this? Edited October 25, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Hear, hear! And I'm afraid to wear my really small cross necklace I bought, because of what my fellow mormons will say/think. How in the world has it come to this?

Educate them by wearing it and then responding to any comments by reciting appropriate scripture or telling them it is your way of reminding yourself to take up your own cross with the help of the Lord.

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/print/2011/07/the-meaning-of-the-cross-for-latter-day-saints?lang=eng&clang=eng

 

I find that the last quote of Pres. Hinckley feels somewhat contradictory (in that it seems to reject the cross as if it sends out the wrong message) to the rest of the talk though Elder Schwitzer does say we don't need to wear a cross in order to show our testimony of its significance.  And besides that I don't see anything wrong with honouring the dying Christ as well as the eternal living Christ as long as we don't let our acknowledgement and understanding end there.  After all, his death is part of his eternal life.  If we remove it, we diminish the entirety just as if we neglected to mention someone's marriage or years at college when creating a biography of her life.  His death was not the end, but it was a necessary part of the process.

 

In no ways does displaying a cross remove from us the responsibility of carrying its meaning internally, but the reverse goes as well in my opinion...in no way does carrying its meaning internally prevent us from displaying a cross externally.

 

In many ways, some people may relate more to the suffering or even dying Christ at this time of their life and making the connection may help them hold on to the hope of the living Christ...as in 'Christ endured his suffering so that my suffering too will have meaning and in the end I will live again as He does'.  I don't see value in rejecting any symbol that helps someone turn towards Christ, though I agree that in some cases too much of a focus on one aspect of Christ's life may lead to an imbalance (I can even imagine someone so focused on the "Living Christ"...on what happens after the Atonement fully engages in our lives that they ignore the need to endure and suffer in our own mortal experience so that we may know the bitter from the sweet rather then just 'leaving it all to Christ' so to speak).

Edited October 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Educate them by wearing it and then responding to any comments by reciting appropriate scripture or telling them it is your way of reminding yourself to take up your own cross with the help of the Lord.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/print/2011/07/the-meaning-of-the-cross-for-latter-day-saints?lang=eng&clang=eng

I find that the last quote of Pres. Hinckley feels somewhat contradictory (in that it seems to reject the cross as if it sends out the wrong message) to the rest of the talk though Elder Schwitzer does say we don't need to wear a cross in order to show our testimony of its significance. And besides that I don't see anything wrong with honouring the dying Christ as well as the eternal living Christ as long as we don't let our acknowledgement and understanding end there. After all, his death is part of his eternal life. If we remove it, we diminish the entirety just as if we neglected to mention someone's marriage or years at college when creating a biography of her life. His death was not the end, but it was a necessary part of the process.

In no ways does displaying a cross remove from us the responsibility of carrying its meaning internally, but the reverse goes as well in my opinion...in no way does carrying its meaning internally prevent us from displaying a cross externally.

In many ways, some people may relate more to the suffering or even dying Christ at this time of their life and making the connection may help them hold on to the hope of the living Christ...as in 'Christ endured his suffering so that my suffering too will have meaning and in the end I will live again as He does'. I don't see value in rejecting any symbol that helps someone turn towards Christ, though I agree that in some cases too much of a focus on one aspect of Christ's life may lead to an imbalance (I can even imagine someone so focused on the "Living Christ"...on what happens after the Atonement fully engages in our lives that they ignore the need to endure and suffer in our own mortal experience so that we may know the bitter from the sweet rather then just 'leaving it all to Christ' so to speak).

And yet I can't do it. The cross isn't even straight up and down but kind of loops at the top, bottom and sides. But ever since my walking partner friend reacted so negatively about it when I told her about wearing it, I can't bring myself to do it, just like wearing pants on Sunday for women, it's ingrained in me. Maybe we need to get the group that wore pants on Sunday to have a wear a cross on Sunday day. Thanks for your open mindedness Cal. And your suggestion to educate someone of the feelings they might have about the cross.