Topographic Information In The Book Of Mormon

[Rob Osborn]

I realize what the Book of Mormon says. 

 

The Book of Mormon does not say where it happened. It could have been in the U.S, South America, Mesoamerica, Ireland, or in India. 

 

Show me a mountain anywhere in the world that dates to 1st century AD. The only ones I can think of are from volcanic eruptions in the ring of fire. That leaves out all of the United States east of the Mississippi river.

 

 

Using current scientific methods and assumptions of scientists makes the entire BoM a fraud. Now why would I trust in science? None of the events described in the BoM are held to be true by the scientific community including the topography changes to the land around the time of Christ's death.

[Anijen]

Using current scientific methods and assumptions of scientists makes the entire BoM a fraud. 

I disagree. There is much in science that will make it less likely that the Book of Mormon events happened in the Heartland as many believe, and there is science that makes it also unlikely that the the Book of Mormon pushes a hemispheric model (i.e. a great migration to fight a war).

 

However I believe that a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon fits quite well with science.

[Anijen]

Now why would I trust in science?

Many of our leaders trust science. We are taught to study and be educated, part of that is learning is the use of science. I do not see why we wouldn't, unless one wants to remain in a flat earth society.

 

 

 

None of the events described in the BoM are held to be true by the scientific community

Why would they? I don't hold up science to validate my religious beliefs, I do use science to back up my opinions on such things as a setting for the Book of Mormon.

 

 

 including the topography changes to the land around the time of Christ's death. 

Where were these changes? before you can use topography change for support of your argument you must need to know where these changes  occurred (circa, 1st century AD). These changes did not happen in the United States or inland of South America, then where?

Edited October 10, 2013 by Anijen

[Rob Osborn]

Many of our leaders trust science. We are taught to study and be educated, part of that is learning is the use of science. I do not see why we wouldn't, unless one wants to remain in a flat earth society.

 

 

 

Why would they? I don't hold up science to validate my religious beliefs, I do use science to back up my opinions on such things as a setting for the Book of Mormon.

 

 

Where were these changes? before you can use topography change for support of your argument you must need to know where these changes  occurred (circa, 1st century AD). These changes did not happen in the United States or inland of South America, then where?

I already gave a for instance- that of Tiahuanaco, Puma Punka. Evidence shows that these ancient ruins were once at sea level. My belief is that these ancient cities and seaports were upthrust thousands of feet at the time of Christs death. Now of course modern science says no uplift occurred at that time. Thats alright though because I truly feel scientific inquiry into the age of things is drastically and rather absurdly inflated.

[Anijen]

My belief is that these ancient cities and seaports were upthrust thousands of feet at the time of Christs death. Now of course modern science says no uplift occurred at that time. Thats alright though because I truly feel scientific inquiry into the age of things is drastically and rather absurdly inflated.

Okay, its a free country believe what you want.

[prismsplay]

Rob Osborn's belief that Book of Mormon geography was spread over both North and South America makes no sense to me. According to Ether 1:33, after the language of mankind was confounded, people were scattered upon all the face of the earth, including North America and South America. The one scattering in North America that we know about, the Jaredites, is told in the book of Ether. There had to have been at least one migration of a different people to South America.

 

In the Book of Jacob we have a long quotation from the writings of the prophet Zenos which was concerned with a later scattering, not of mankind in general, but of the house of Israel. There were "many" graftings of branches of the house of Israel (Jacob 5:8 ). We know of two of these graftings in North America, the Mulekites and the Lehites, which split into Nephites and Lamanites, the Nephites merging with the Mulekites.

 

That there was at least one grafting of a branch of the house of Israel in South America is suggested by the fact that there are separate legends of visitations by Christ in both North and South America. This would fulfill what was prophesied in 1 Nephi 19:11 concerning "the Lord God surely shall visit all the house of Israel at that day." The visit in North America we know about from the Book of Mormon. We do not yet have a record of the visit in South America that resulted in legends of it.

 

So all this talk about Book of Mormon geography (which is restricted to only the Jaredites, the Mulekites, and Nephites, and the Lamanites) spreading over two continents acts as if the writings of Zenos quoted in the Book of Jacob did not mean what they teach. The archaeology of South America should show evidence of pre-Israel people scattered after the confounding of human language and also evidence of a branch of the house of Israel that was visited by Christ. That is an entirely different archaeology from the one that corresponds to the Book of Mormon, the one in Mesoamerica being the only one corresponding to the account we have in the Book of Mormon.

Edited October 11, 2013 by prismsplay

[Rob Osborn]

The Jaredites occupying North America and later Nephites occupying South America and eventually moving into North America makes perfect sense. Once one begins connecting the dots the real picture begins to appear. The similarities of ancient cultures on both continents shows a strong Nephite connection including similar lands and engineering and building techniques.

[prismsplay]

The Jaredites occupying North America and later Nephites occupying South America and eventually moving into North America makes perfect sense. Once one begins connecting the dots the real picture begins to appear. The similarities of ancient cultures on both continents shows a strong Nephite connection including similar lands and engineering and building techniques.

 

The fact that you avoided commenting on scriptural statements in Ether 1:33, Jacob 5:8, and 1 Nephi 19:11, which I referred to, says to me that you are not interested in what these passages teach.

[Rob Osborn]

The fact that you avoided commenting on scriptural statements in Ether 1:33, Jacob 5:8, and 1 Nephi 19:11, which I referred to, says to me that you are not interested in what these passages teach.

These scriprures have notging to say on the timing of scattering and gathering of peopke to specific lands. No mention is made in the BoM of there being other people in the Americas besides those BoM peoples.

[cdowis]

Using current scientific methods and assumptions of scientists makes the entire BoM a fraud.

 

May I suggest some modifications on your statements.

 

"I have been unable to find any articles on scientific evidence for the Book of Mormon."

 

Now why would I trust in science?

 

"Why should I trust on my abilities to research this issue?  Perhaps there are others who are more knowledgeable than I am in this area."

 

None of the events described in the BoM are held to be true by the scientific community including the topography changes to the land around the time of Christ's death.

 

"In my vast and unrelenting attempts to find any research on this issue, I have been unable to find any justification.  I have spent literally thousands of hours on this search."

 

I know how exhausted you are of your tireless search, but did you think to look at the Maxwell Institute?

 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=12&num=1&id=309

 

How about BYU Studies.  You might check in google on the credentials of the author, Bart J. Kowallis.  He compares the events described in the BOM with scientific facts.

 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/37.3KowallisThirty-834b7be4-2825-4ef9-9c33-fbc1b620e6dd.pdf

 

You can now rest your weary head.

Edited October 11, 2013 by cdowis

[cdowis]

These scriprures have notging to say on the timing of scattering and gathering of peopke to specific lands. No mention is made in the BoM of there being other people in the Americas besides those BoM peoples.

 

The BOM tells us that there were inhabitants when Lehi, et al, arrived.  But you already know that, based on your tireless search for such things.

Edited October 11, 2013 by cdowis

[Anijen]

deleted 

Edited October 11, 2013 by Anijen

[Rob Osborn]

I know how exhausted you are of your tireless search, but did you think to look at the Maxwell Institute?

 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=12&num=1&id=309

 

How about BYU Studies.  You might check in google on the credentials of the author, Bart J. Kowallis.  He compares the events described in the BOM with scientific facts.

 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/37.3KowallisThirty-834b7be4-2825-4ef9-9c33-fbc1b620e6dd.pdf

 

You can now rest your weary head.

Perhaps I could use a different dialogue. Sometimes I dont come off right.

From all of my personal search including thousands of hours pouring over old FARMS publications, studying geology books, speaking with professors, scientists and other highly trained in their respective fields, I am confident in stating that something is amiss with reconciling popular scientific views with the Book of Mormon. My personal knowledge on the subject has led me to conclude that almost every person, including myself focuses their study in the direction of their personal ideas and notions. It is sad thus to conclude that almost everyone, including highly respective professionals in this field of research do not nor cannot look at the evidence with an open and clear mind nor with much sense of logic.

[Rob Osborn]

The BOM tells us that there were inhabitants when Lehi, et al, arrived.  But you already know that, based on your tireless search for such things.

There were Mulekites but no other people are mentioned in the BoM inhabiting the Americas at the time of Lehi and company landing.

[cursor]

deleted 

 

LOL ... gotta love it.

[prismsplay]

 No mention is made in the BoM of there being other people in the Americas besides those BoM peoples.

 

I am surprised to see you admitting that. For that would mean that you believe that the Olmecs and the Mayans, whose existence resulted in Meoamerican archaeology, were mentioned in the Book of Mormon. That would mean that the Olmecs were the Jaredites, and that the Mayans were the Nephites, Lamanites, and Mulekites. That would mean that Mesoamerica was the area in which Book of Mormon peoples lived. That would mean that the topographic information in the Book of Mormon should make sense in Mesoamerica and no where else. For once I can thoroughly agree with a statement that Rob Osborn has made: "No mention is made in the Book of Mormon of there being other people in the Americas besides those Book of Mormon peoples."

[Tiki]

It is interesting to note that the word "ha" in the Mayan language means by the sea. These cities are all by Nephihah and Nephihah was described in the Book of Mormon as by the sea.

Wow. Fantastic. So when King Lamoni's servants called Ammon: "Rabbanah" they were calling him "Great Dude By The Sea."

Of course, being an LGT apologist, Alma 8:7 is irrelevant to your Book of Mormon Mesoamerica Geography Theory.

"7 Now it was the custom of the people of Nephi to call their lands, and their cities, and their villages, yea, even all their small villages, after the aname of him who first possessed them; and thus it was with the land of Ammonihah."

The suffix "hah" or "ah" refers to son or relative of.

Give up with the Maya junk already.

[cdowis]

There were Mulekites but no other people are mentioned in the BoM inhabiting the Americas at the time of Lehi and company landing.

 

Rob,

 

I find it fascinating that you are able to speak with such absolute certainty, as you do with almost all of your posts. Not a single twinge of doubt, is there.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob,

 

I find it fascinating that you are able to speak with such absolute certainty, as you do with almost all of your posts. Not a single twinge of doubt, is there.

Just stating what the BoM says, no more and no less. The BoM makes no mention of other civilizations. And wheteas I believe in a more semi-hemispgwric model I am led to think that there literally were only those BoM peoples in the Americas during BoM times.

[Rob Osborn]

I am surprised to see you admitting that. For that would mean that you believe that the Olmecs and the Mayans, whose existence resulted in Meoamerican archaeology, were mentioned in the Book of Mormon. That would mean that the Olmecs were the Jaredites, and that the Mayans were the Nephites, Lamanites, and Mulekites. That would mean that Mesoamerica was the area in which Book of Mormon peoples lived. That would mean that the topographic information in the Book of Mormon should make sense in Mesoamerica and no where else. For once I can thoroughly agree with a statement that Rob Osborn has made: "No mention is made in the Book of Mormon of there being other people in the Americas besides those Book of Mormon peoples."

You may have to recant. You see, I believe the Olmec were Jaredites but so were the Mayans Jaredites also. I am pretty firm that most of the ancient ruins in mesoamerica were of Jaredite origins. I do believe that Nephites and Lamanites did take over and use some of the Jaredite structures and perhaps even copied some culture items from them. Most of the Nephite and Lamanite stories in the BoM took place in South America

[prismsplay]

You may have to recant. You see, I believe the Olmec were Jaredites but so were the Mayans Jaredites also. I am pretty firm that most of the ancient ruins in mesoamerica were of Jaredite origins. I do believe that Nephites and Lamanites did take over and use some of the Jaredite structures and perhaps even copied some culture items from them. Most of the Nephite and Lamanite stories in the BoM took place in South America

 

According to Ether 1:33, the Lord God swore that mankind should be scattered upon all the face of the earth, and they were so scattered. The Jaredites were brought into a land "which is choice above all the land of the earth" (Ether 1:42), North America. South America is not as choice. A group of people other than the Jaredites were brought into South America to fulfill the Lord's directive on that continent.

 

The long quotation from the writings of Zenos, taken from the brass plates, in the Book of Jacob, describes a second set of migrations, this time from the house of Israel. That panomamic revealment mentions "many" graftings of "tender" branches of the house of Israel. One of these graftings was into "the poorest spot in all the land of thy vineyard" (Jacob 5:21). Another was into a spot of ground "poorer than the first". The "last" of the "many" graftings was into a "good spot of ground, yea, even that which was choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard" (Jacob 5:43), the same spot of ground that the Jaredites were brought into, North America. Notice the very next verse: "And thou beholdest that I also cut down that which cumbered this spot of ground [the Jaredites] that I might plant this tree in the stead thereof [the Lehites and the Mulekites]".

 

Your beliefs concerning the lands occupied by the Lehites are not in harmony with the Book of Jacob, not compatible with traveling distances, not compatible with Mesoamerican archaeology,and not compatible with the topographic information in the Book of Mormon. Your beliefs concerning the narrow neck of land being the Isthmus of Panama, which is about 400 miles long, with swamps, jungles, and mountains, making it impassable, are absurd and ridiculous. But rather than admit your folly, you speculate that there was at one time a 400 mile highway connecting North and South America, but that the jungle has obliterated any evidence of it. How convenient! Nephite highways in Mesoamerica have been uncovered, and even some of those still covered with jungle have become traceable through aerial photography. Why not for your beloved 400 mile long highway through the Isthmus of Panama? Hmmm?

Edited October 12, 2013 by prismsplay

[cdowis]

Just stating what the BoM says, no more and no less. 

 

May I suggest that you read it again more carefully.  

 

There are several articles on FARMS, and threads here in this very forum on the issue.  You should do your homework, and take notes before making such assertions.  

Edited October 12, 2013 by cdowis

[Rob Osborn]

According to Ether 1:33, the Lord God swore that mankind should be scattered upon all the face of the earth, and they were so scattered. The Jaredites were brought into a land "which is choice above all the land of the earth" (Ether 1:42), North America. South America is not as choice. A group of people other than the Jaredites were brought into South America to fulfill the Lord's directive on that continent.

 

The long quotation from the writings of Zenos, taken from the brass plates, in the Book of Jacob, describes a second set of migrations, this time from the house of Israel. That panomamic revealment mentions "many" graftings of "tender" branches of the house of Israel. One of these graftings was into "the poorest spot in all the land of thy vineyard" (Jacob 5:21). Another was into a spot of ground "poorer than the first". The "last" of the "many" graftings was into a "good spot of ground, yea, even that which was choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard" (Jacob 5:43), the same spot of ground that the Jaredites were brought into, North America. Notice the very next verse: "And thou beholdest that I also cut down that which cumbered this spot of ground [the Jaredites] that I might plant this tree in the stead thereof [the Lehites and the Mulekites]".

 

Your beliefs concerning the lands occupied by the Lehites are not in harmony with the Book of Jacob, not compatible with traveling distances, not compatible with Mesoamerican archaeology,and not compatible with the topographic information in the Book of Mormon. Your beliefs concerning the narrow neck of land being the Isthmus of Panama, which is about 400 miles long, with swamps, jungles, and mountains, making it impassable, are absurd and ridiculous. But rather than admit your folly, you speculate that there was at one time a 400 mile highway connecting North and South America, but that the jungle has obliterated any evidence of it. How convenient! Nephite highways in Mesoamerica have been uncovered, and even some of those still covered with jungle have become traceable through aerial photography. Why not for your beloved 400 mile long highway through the Isthmus of Panama? Hmmm?

The Nephites were initially brought to a different land than the Jaredites. The Nephites moved into the lands of the Jaredites later on. Both North and South Amerca are the land of promise. The narrow neck, as has already been discussed, fits rather perfectly with BoM events. The isthmus of tehuantepec fails ratther miserably on multiple levels.

[Rob Osborn]

May I suggest that you read it again more carefully.  

 

There are several articles on FARMS, and threads here in this very forum on the issue.  You should do your homework, and take notes before making such assertions.

Tell you what, find me the relevant "scriptures" proving me wrong. FARMS is not scripture but mere opinions of men. Find me actual BoM scripture.

[prismsplay]

The Nephites were initially brought to a different land than the Jaredites.

 

They were brought to the same "good spot of ground" according to the Book of Mormon, as I pointed out:

 

The long quotation from the writings of Zenos, taken from the brass plates, in the Book of Jacob, describes a second set of migrations, this time from the house of Israel. That panomamic revealment mentions "many" graftings of "tender" branches of the house of Israel. One of these graftings was into "the poorest spot in all the land of thy vineyard" (Jacob 5:21). Another was into a spot of ground "poorer than the first". The "last" of the "many" graftings was into a "good spot of ground, yea, even that which was choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard" (Jacob 5:43), the same spot of ground that the Jaredites were brought into, North America. Notice the very next verse: "And thou beholdest that I also cut down that which cumbered this spot of ground [the Jaredites] that I might plant this tree in the stead thereof [the Lehites and the Mulekites]".

 

While the Jaredites were headed for destruction, the Lord was already bringing in the Mulekites and Lehites to replace them.

 

The topographic information in the Book of Mormon makes no sense when applied over whole continents. It makes perfect sense when confined to Mesoamerica

 

Both North and South Amerca are the land of promise.

 

"And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance" (1Nephi 13:15). When we read this in context, it is clear that the reference is to the founding of the United States of America in North America, because it mentions that "their mother Gentiles was gathered together upon the waters and upon the land also, to battle against them" (verse 17). This is a prophecy fulfilled during the American Revolution in North America, which is the land of promise.

 

2 Nephi 10:11,14:

And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land which shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

 

This applies to North America. South America has been cursed with dictatorships, and is therefore not the land of promise. The present attempts to make Obama a dictator will fail after much turmoil, even if Christ Himself has to intervene to stop it.

 

2 Nephi 10:15:

Wherefore for this cause that my covenants may be fulfilled which I have made unto the children of men that I will do unto them while they are in the flesh, I must needs destroy the secret works of darkness and of murders and of abominations.

 

2 Nephi 10:19:

Wherefore I will consecrate this land unto thy seed - and they which shall be numbered among thy seed - forever, for the land of their inheritance; for it [North America] is a choice land, saith God, unto me, above all other lands. Wherefore I will have all men that dwell thereon that they shall worship me, saith God.

Edited October 12, 2013 by prismsplay