Book Of Mormon Time Travel?

[Bernard Gui]

Alma 13 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

How do you cite your mind forward to something that happened in the past?

[canard78]

Someone will perhaps point out that when translated back into Hebrew via Egyptian with a Mesoamerican influence you'll find that actually this is perfect evidence for an original document.

 

Or... given we don't claim our scriptures are infallible it's simply an error in Joseph's dictation. I'd go with the second.

 

If this is simply a mistake in the dictation (or perhaps Mormon's editing if you prefer) then it's still OK with me.

 

Nephi said that “…the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good.” (2 Nephi 33:4) Nephi had been taught this by his father Lehi, who he recorded as saying: “…the weakness of their words will I make strong in their faith…” 

 

We should accept and expect scripture and the words of prophets to have faults and mistakes. By divine design, humans make mistakes. Prophets are not exempt. Mormon declares as much in the title page of the Book of Mormon: "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men." The opening section of the Doctrine and Covenants (1:34) similarly says:  "...these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language…"

 

While this may not be your question, our canon is fallible and should not be relied upon as always reliable. This insignificant (possible) weakness/error in the text is a small example of such.

[Calm]

Alma 13 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

How do you cite your mind forward to something that happened in the past?

"Forward to" is close to "towards"...perhaps it was appropriate substitution in Joseph's dialect, could be a simple error though as well.

[Brant Gardner]

Webster's 1828 has a definition of "anterior." It was probably used in the sense of "beforeward" (obviously made up word).

[cdowis]

In this case, I would assume that "forward" refers to something besides time. 

[CV75]

Alma 13 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

How do you cite your mind forward to something that happened in the past?

You "summon" your mind to "pay attention," or to "Look!" (1 Nephi 11:19). When an instrutor is writing something about the past on the blackboard he will say the same kind of thing.

[cdowis]

Very good.

[Sevenbak]

This seems pretty simple to me, without having to wrest the scriptures into thinking it's a mistranslation.    Alma is answering a question from Antionah, (end of Ch. 12) on what the cherubim and the flaming sword was all about. He preaches a lot about the garden and a need for a Redeemer.  He then says "cite your minds forward", in relation to the scriptures and the ordination of High Priests.  

 

It's just a reference to the teachings on the brass plates.  Kind of like a little Nephite scripture chase.

[sheilauk]

Similar phrases that are brought to mind are "look toward the past", "bring it forward in your mind", "bring it to the fore (of your mind)". I think it probably means something like that.

 

But, as an aside, its also interesting to note that not everyone views time in the same way - the Aymara, who live in the Andes, talk about the past as being in front of them, because it has been seen and the future as being behind them because you can't see the future.  I'm not saying that this is how Alma or those he was speaking to thought! (I wouldn't know).  Just that how we think about time and the words we use (including those for remembering) aren't universal and also that it changes... over time(!)

[ERayR]

Remember this is a condensed version made by Mormon centuries after it was written and centuries after Christs coming.

[Freedom]

As has been said, I do not see the word 'forward' as referring to the event but to the state of mind he wants us to be in.

[MormonMason]

Alma 13 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

How do you cite your mind forward to something that happened in the past?

Think like an ancient Hebrew and you will get it.  The same word in Hebrew for "east" also is for "forward" and also means "ancient" or "old time."  This orientation comes from the Israelites measuring direction by standing with their back to the Mediterranean Sea.  "Forward" is "East."  According to one writer, a Th.D. whose name escapes me and the source of which I do not have with me at present, the Hebrews "backed into" time.  Based upon that underlying meaning of the word, "forward" also is "the past."  Joseph Smith would not and could not have known that, even learning rudimentary Hebrew.

[Brian 2.0]

According to one writer, a Th.D. whose name escapes me and the source of which I do not have with me at present, the Hebrews "backed into" time.  Based upon that underlying meaning of the word, "forward" also is "the past."  Joseph Smith would not and could not have known that, even learning rudimentary Hebrew.

 

I've never heard of that, interesting.  So are there Hebrew examples of using it like this... "cite your mind forward" or "look foward" and they are referring to the past?

 

Also... i did a quick search for "forward" in the BOM

 

1 Nephi 8:21

21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were

pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto

the tree by which I stood.

 

 

"follow" also reused like this multiple time in tree of life vision

 

2 Nephi 25:16

...and worship the

Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look

not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the

day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should

believe these things.

 

phrase repeated like this in vs. 18 as well

 

2 Nephi 25:27

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may

know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness

of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ

 

2 Nephi 25:27

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may

know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness

of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ [this is before Chist's life]

 

Jarom 1:11

11 Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the teachers,

did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the

people to diligence; teaching the law of Moses, and the intent

for which it was given; persuading them to look forward unto the

Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was.

And after this manner did they teach them. 

[Brian 2.0]

There are obviously a lot more than that as well.  I found 40, and it seems they use "forward" like we do and not in a "looking into the past" way.  In fact the verse after the one in question uses it the other way:

 

Alma 13:1
1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the
time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children;
and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained
priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his
Son, to teach these things unto the people.
Alma 13:2
2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in
a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to
look forward to his Son for redemption.

 

 

So if this isn't just an error of some sort, they are using forward in both ways I guess.

[longview]

Alma 13 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

How do you cite your mind forward to something that happened in the past?

The word "forward" is clearly pointing to different historical events:

 

point A:  Alma 12:22-24  Adam activated the Plan of Redemption by partaking of the Forbidden Fruit

 

point B:  Alma 13:1  men are commanded to obtain the Priesthood in order to provide saving ordinances for themselves and others.

 

point C:  Alma 13:2  men are taught the symbolism inherent in the ordinances that foreshadow the Great and Last Sacrifice provided by the Savior in the Meridian of Time

 

First two points occurred in the past prior to time of Alma.  Point C after the time of Alma.

 

Point A occurred prior to point B.  Alma is merely transitioning his discussion from the time of the Fall (point A) to the time when men started receiving the Priesthood (point B).  Alma used the word "cite" to reference a later time, which was in his past.  "Forward" is simply a direction for moving from event A to event B.

 

Alma is teaching that the Fall would not have been allowed to happen without the assurance of the Savior's Atonement and that the Priesthood is required to apply the saving ordinances made possible by the Atonement.

 

I think this should help.

[canard78]

There are obviously a lot more than that as well. I found 40, and it seems they use "forward" like we do and not in a "looking into the past" way. In fact the verse after the one in question uses it the other way:

So if this isn't just an error of some sort, they are using forward in both ways I guess.

But of course Brian. They're Hebraisms, except for when they're not. The prophets are also fallible except for when they're not. And usually he's not... except for when he's undeniably fallible Edited September 27, 2013 by canard78

[MormonMason]

I've never heard of that, interesting.  So are there Hebrew examples of using it like this... "cite your mind forward" or "look foward" and they are referring to the past?

 

Also... i did a quick search for "forward" in the BOM

 

 

"follow" also reused like this multiple time in tree of life vision

 

phrase repeated like this in vs. 18 as well

I am not with my books so I have no way of checking this at the moment.  That said, please be aware that there are multiple Hebrew words (with differing shades of meaning) to our single English forward and forwards.  You'll have to consult a decent Hebrew-English and English-Hebrew dictionary to see them.

[MormonMason]

But of course Brian. They're Hebraisms, except for when they're not.

Actually, there are multiple Hebrew words with differing shades of meaning (with senses of moving forward, looking forward (to the future), etc.), that are represented by our English "forward" and "forwards."  As I wrote above, you will need to consult a decent English-Hebrew and Hebrew-English dictionary to see most of them.  Then you will have to discard the modern Hebrew references by comparison to Clines' The Concise Dictionary of Classical Hebrew.  I am not at home with my books (and won't be for some time to come, unfortunately) so cannot access the information myself to assist you further.

 

But that is the thing with both Hebrew and Egyptian.  There often are words with varying senses and shades of meaning that are represented by one word in English.  Conversely, a single word in either language can have multiple meanings and nuances in English.  Such is the case for Hebrew and Egyptian words underlying our English "white."  They also mean "pure" if context determines it.  Hint:  See 2 Nephi 30:6 in current and past editions of the Book of Mormon, and compare those with Daniel 11:35 and 12:10 in the KJV and NIV.  You will see both definitions in English from a single Hebrew word underlying the text.  Both meanings are correct: one literally so and the other conceptually so.

 

So, if we see that sort of thing happening in various places in the English text of the Book of Mormon, all the better.  It would be expected of a purported translation of an ancient text.

[Tiki]

Alma 13 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

How do you cite your mind forward to something that happened in the past?

---——

What a bunch of silly answers. Alma, as recorded in the previous chapter 12, was referring to Adam and Eve and the Fall. Then asked his listeners to cite their minds forward from that point in time. Duh.

[Bernard Gui]

The "duh" was unnecessary.

[Bernard Gui]

Thank you all for the suggestions. I would like to hear a follow-up from MormonMason when it is convenient. It is such an unusual expression...

Could it be a phrase that simply moves the dialogue along, such as, "Moving on....?"

Edited September 28, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[MormonMason]

Alma 13 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

How do you cite your mind forward to something that happened in the past?

---——

What a bunch of silly answers. Alma, as recorded in the previous chapter 12, was referring to Adam and Eve and the Fall. Then asked his listeners to cite their minds forward from that point in time. Duh.

Not silly at all.  You are missing the context for the context.  The comment in verse 13:1 refers back to verses 32-35 of chapter 12.  He had already discussed the events which came after the time of the fall of Adam and Eve, at which time he mentioned the commandments that were given to his children.  This following of events was already discussed after the fall was discussed.  He then reminds them to think back on "the time when" said commandments to repent and live a good life were given.  He had already changed the subject slightly from the fall to the time when repentance was offered to God's children.  He then enjoins them to remember that second event he had already discussed.  He had already discussed the time when these commandments were given.

 

And, seriously, I was not kidding that a non-Mormon Th.D. stated something about Israelites "backing into time" because the past was "before them."  I just need to recall the name of the guy and where he wrote it.  I do recall that it was in a work of Lexical Aids to the Old and New Testaments, or something like that, and that he had a Greek-sounding name.  It has been a few years since I read it and I need to gain access to my notes and books to find it, unless someone else also recalls something similar and goes looking for the information.

 

I tried looking up something about that in an attempt to find the quote online, and did turn up a website, but this website has been blocked by Google for containing potentially harmful content.  So, I won't be linking that site here anytime soon.

[MormonMason]

Thank you all for the suggestions. I would like to hear a follow-up from MormonMason when it is convenient. It is such an unusual expression...

Could it be a phrase that simply moves the dialogue along, such as, "Moving on....?"

That also is a possibility.  Short of seeing an original text, it is impossible to know for a certainty about anything underlying the text.  The Anthon Transcript is no Rosetta Stone, although there are a few words that have been translated from that text.  Nothing definitive, though, and even if we could translate the entire thing it would not help us concerning the rest of the Book of Mormon.

 

As an aside, and concerning the Anthon Transcript, it is a rather badly done copy.  It however does read from right to left.  The first line tentatively translated is "Regnal year 1 of Sid ka yahu (?)..."  That could be wrong if later work recovers further context.  The ka sign is very clear there and there is a determinative (falcon on a standard) of a divine name that occurs in that line.  There is a word or character that is connecting with begetting in Egyptian (it looks like  broken 8 but is very much like a sign in Demotic which represents a penis).

 

Several times the phrase "this book" or "this writing" can be seen repeated.  This phrase consists of two characters in the transcript and one of them is preceded by a character that looks much like the demonstrative pronoun used in the sense of "the" in Late Egyptian texts.  There may be one or possibly two occurrences of the name "Mormon" as well, but that is nowhere certain because there are issues with making out the other characters surrounding these occurrences.  There are three Demotic-styled cartouches that are untranslatable because they are very badly copied.  It is not possible to recover the name contained in the text at those places.

 

The entire text looks like one from a transitional period from Hieratic to Demotic (which would be expected c. 650-600 BCE), and contains both forms of script combined.  And, no, I am not joking around about any of this.  Someone I know is actually working on this from time to time.  He wishes to remain anonymous, so I will not be mentioning his name.  I just wish there were more characters to work with.  It would be really cool to see this thing translated.

[De Groote]

And, seriously, I was not kidding that a non-Mormon Th.D. stated something about Israelites "backing into time" because the past was "before them." 

 

I have also heard something similar -- but it was, if I recall correctly, about Egyptians. Sorry, I have no reference though.

[MormonMason]

I have also heard something similar -- but it was, if I recall correctly, about Egyptians. Sorry, I have no reference though.

Possibly, but this one I mentioned definitely stated it was the Hebrews who "backed into time."  I just remembered his first name.  It was Spiros.