Leave It, But Can't Leave It Alone

[mfbukowski]

read post #136

I read it when you first wrote it.

[Robert F. Smith]

(Cough, cough, cough) Godwin's law... 

No, it is the Law of Unintended Consequences.  Why?  Because most such references are not germane.  In this case they are.

It is a rabbi who told me that unmerited suffering is redemptive, and it is the rabbis who take the long view on the Exile.  The hatred and venom spent on exorcising a hated religion or group can be enormous, and I feel very sorry for those who feed their own obsession with a group of which they are no longer a part.  Such sickness tells us more about the hater than it does about the group they hate.

[Vance]

Robert, you said that there was no intellectual argument against the LDS church's authenticity. If so why as u mentioned earlier did LDS avoid talking to Wes Walters at MHA meetings? BTW Wes sent me what I thought was a very cogent argument against the "passing" (Nibley) of the primitive church in Church History.

 

Intellectual issues against the church:

1 Lack of evidence for historicity of the BOM - Both HGT and LT

2.BOA-No evidence for the "missing scroll theory"

3 FV - No revival in 1820 as described by JS - There was a revival in 1823-24. When did the family join the PC? 1820 or 1823? 

4.Cumorah/Moroni  Comoras Islands (Capital is Moroni) Captain Kidd worked around there. "Mormon" means "frighting in Greek hence Mormon articus (puffin birds) The Mormon ape. Wes sent me a Christmas card one year with Puffin birds on the outside. Inside he comments 'Some "Mormons" coming to visit you in Beenleigh"

And you call those intellectual arguments?

 

[Tacenda]

http://mormonstories.org/greg-prince-on-faith-and-doubt-as-partners-in-mormon-history/

 

Listening to this now.  I think it'll be helpful in uniting those that have doubt to those that don't.   

 

ETA:  He mostly speaks about church historian, Leonard J. Arrington.  Leonard started to have doubts, one of them being the BoM.  And according to Greg Prince, it was because of John Sorenson's work that he was able to start belief in the book again.  And nine years later, an article in the Dialogue,  "The Book of Mormon as a Modern Expansion of an Ancient Source" by Blake T. Ostler, helped him also.

 

Very interesting to hear that Cursor's father helped Leonard along in that need for a testimony of the BoM.  Makes the "Mormon Codex" a great work indeed!        

Edited September 20, 2013 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert, you said that there was no intellectual argument against the LDS church's authenticity. If so why as u mentioned earlier did LDS avoid talking to Wes Walters at MHA meetings? BTW Wes sent me what I thought was a very cogent argument against the "passing" (Nibley) of the primitive church in Church History.

 

Intellectual issues against the church:

1 Lack of evidence for historicity of the BOM - Both HGT and LT

2.BOA-No evidence for the "missing scroll theory"

3 FV - No revival in 1820 as described by JS - There was a revival in 1823-24. When did the family join the PC? 1820 or 1823? 

4.Cumorah/Moroni  Comoras Islands (Capital is Moroni) Captain Kidd worked around there. "Mormon" means "frighting in Greek hence Mormon articus (puffin birds) The Mormon ape. Wes sent me a Christmas card one year with Puffin birds on the outside. Inside he comments 'Some "Mormons" coming to visit you in Beenleigh"

As I pointed out in my post, avoiding Wes seemed to indicate a lack of faith, but it may have simply been an instinctive and visceral response to a perceived threat.  A threat does not have to be real to evoke an emotional response.  Primitive survival instincts can kick in.

 

As to the 4 items you list (and many more could be added to the list), they are pretty commonly heard within the anti-Mormon community (I spent many years in regular conversation with that community).  Yet, none of them has been well articulated and reasonably presented in light of the full range of data available.  Indeed, Mike Quinn even accuses Wes of deliberately leaving crucial information out of his discussions of #3, here http://ldsfocuschrist2.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/2006-joseph-smiths-experience-of-a-methodist-camp-meeting-in-1820-d-michael-quinn/ .

The other items are dealt with on the FAIR website.

Rather than falsely stating that there is "no evidence," you might want to discuss the nature, weight, and interpretation of the evidence.

[Helen47]

When i was in the LDS church there was an american couple who I asked what the leadership in SLC thought of Dialogue.They said they were disturb by the slack response by a Mormon historian to an article by a Presbyterian pastor. After getting back copy of the Spring, 1969 issue of Dialogue I found out what they meant.

Would you consider Chris Smith and Andrew Cook part of the anti-Mormon community ? Two interesting papers by them on issue No.2.I read Quinn's unpublished paper in response to Haleon polyandry(Quinn has revised it). Why marry so many women and why want women who were married others husbands?. Reminds me of a Ape colony where the strongest ape gets the choice of females. And Jacobs as to go and find another. Joseph Smith had her, now Brigham Young wants here. I am sorry Robert if you believe in the correctness of that system, Interesting comment about interpretation by  Wes:

 

     " As to the data/interpretation consideration, I would only say that if the data had been taken in its original context one would not need to have stressed the "conference year and calender year" item. It was because Mormons placed an interpretation upon the data that was contrary to the data itself(as any Methodist even today would immediately perceive it), that it was necessary  to show that the Mormons had misinterpreted the data and in so doingdid not even have the data itself, but a warped misrepresentation  of the facts, The distinction between data and interpretation may be valid where one has gaps in the data and must put some interpretative  construction on  upon the data to give the data meaning. But where one's interpretation of the data causes one to miss what the data is saying, then one not only has a wrong interpretation. but does not even have the data in hand"

 

You will be removed from the board if you are not respectful.  You have been removed from the thread for the ape colony insult.

[Robert F. Smith]

When i was in the LDS church there was an american couple who I asked what the leadership in SLC thought of Dialogue.They said they were disturb by the slack response by a Mormon historian to an article by a Presbyterian pastor. After getting back copy of the Spring, 1969 issue of Dialogue I found out what they meant.

Dialogue was a wonderful idea and had a number of successful years, and was even supported by some people who later became general authorities.  Unfortunately, when the editing of it moved to Utah, that journal became enmeshed in silly local disputes rather than continuing the dialogue on major issues.  In fact it should have been renamed Monologue.  Some of us felt betrayed (including a former associate editor) and we simply didn't subscribe any more.  It simply was no longer committed to major dialogue, and had become too right wing for my tastes (as you know, in Utah, even the Democrats are Republicans). 

 

Would you consider Chris Smith and Andrew Cook part of the anti-Mormon community ?

I haven't met Cook as yet, but have met Chris Smith (no relation) and find him to be the same delightful gentleman in person that he is online.  One does not have to be disagreeable to disagree, and scholars generally maintain a sense of equanimity through mutual respect and real dialogue.  As for actual anti-Mormons, I have known a few and got on well with most of them.  I have never had a cross word with Sandra Tanner, for example, and I admire her tenacity.  I have even gone to church with her and her late husband.

 

Two interesting papers by them on issue No.2.I read Quinn's unpublished paper in response to Haleon polyandry(Quinn has revised it). Why marry so many women and why want women who were married others husbands?. Reminds me of a Ape colony where the strongest ape gets the choice of females. And Jacobs as to go and find another. Joseph Smith had her, now Brigham Young wants here. I am sorry Robert if you believe in the correctness of that system, Interesting comment about interpretation by  Wes:

 

     " As to the data/interpretation consideration, I would only say that if the data had been taken in its original context one would not need to have stressed the "conference year and calender year" item. It was because Mormons placed an interpretation upon the data that was contrary to the data itself(as any Methodist even today would immediately perceive it), that it was necessary  to show that the Mormons had misinterpreted the data and in so doingdid not even have the data itself, but a warped misrepresentation  of the facts, The distinction between data and interpretation may be valid where one has gaps in the data and must put some interpretative  construction on  upon the data to give the data meaning. But where one's interpretation of the data causes one to miss what the data is saying, then one not only has a wrong interpretation. but does not even have the data in hand"

Nice quote, but it is taken out of context and doesn't deal in specifics.  Knowing Wes, I'm certain that he had a full argument there of which this is only a part.

What you failed to do was to reply to Mike Quinn's critique of Wes' failure to consider crucial data which negated his arguments on the 1820 vision.  Mike believes that Wes deliberately left that data out.

My recommendation is that you learn from the very forthright and reliable approach taken by Chris Smith on Mormon issues.  He doesn't waste time hating.  He analyzes, and he provides full documentation.  Along with good humor.

[Tacenda]

Fox is at it again.  

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/mormonstories/?fref=nf

 

John interviews Sandra Tanner for Mormon Stories.  This is the first and second one, more to come.  The 2nd you tube discusses the Mark Hoffman case, so fascinating I thought I knew everything about it.  

 

I don't know how anyone can leave Mormonism alone, there is so much to learn about it's history.  It always stumped me when someone would say...they studied their way out of the church.  Is that a bad thing?  But some are able to come full circle, it's doable.  Maybe if the church is true, this somehow keeps people ever learning, and hooked to eventually believe again, where as those that leave it alone, won't finally figure it out, if true. 

[teddyaware]

Fox is at it again.  

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/mormonstories/?fref=nf

 

John interviews Sandra Tanner for Mormon Stories.  This is the first and second one, more to come.  The 2nd you tube discusses the Mark Hoffman case, so fascinating I thought I knew everything about it.  

 

I don't know how anyone can leave Mormonism alone, there is so much to learn about it's history.  It always stumped me when someone would say...they studied their way out of the church.  Is that a bad thing?  But some are able to come full circle, it's doable.  Maybe if the church is true, this somehow keeps people ever learning, and hooked to eventually believe again, where as those that leave it alone, won't finally figure it out, if true.

This is an absolutely brilliant insight! If I weren't on "limited" status, I'd give you an enthusiastic rep point! Thank you! I will never again get irritated with those who "can't leave it alone."

[Tacenda]

This is an absolutely brilliant insight! If I weren't on "limited" status, I'd give you an enthusiastic rep point! Thank you! I will never again get irritated with those who "can't leave it alone."

Thanks teddyaware, I'd give you a rep point right back if I could (limited)!  And it's funny we're on opposite sides of the boat, yet maybe we aren't, haha.  I read a post recently that you mentioned your son and his disbelief, it's foggy, but I believe you said that you loved him no matter what, wish I could find it again.  But that humanized you, for me.  Sad that we communicate online, and sometimes forget.   

[teddyaware]

Thanks teddyaware, I'd give you a rep point right back if I could (limited)!  And it's funny we're on opposite sides of the boat, yet maybe we aren't, haha.  I read a post recently that you mentioned your son and his disbelief, it's foggy, but I believe you said that you loved him no matter what, wish I could find it again.  But that humanized you, for me.  Sad that we communicate online, and sometimes forget.

Thanks! But you must have me confused with somebody else when it comes to my son, because all three of my kids (2 girls and my son) have strong testimonies.

(P.S. If a moderator is watching -- would you kindly take me off of limited status because I'd like to be able to award rep points once again. I'm also (for some reason) unable to contact you moderators directly, so that's why I'm hoping you'll read this and respond to my request in a positive way.)

Edited May 19, 2014 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

Thanks! But you must have me confused with somebody when it comes to my son, because all three of my kids (2 girls and my son) have strong testimonies.

(P.S. If a moderator is watching -- would you kindly take me off of limited status because I'd like to be able to award rep points once again. I'm also (for some reason) unable to contact you moderators directly, so that's why I'm hoping you'll read this and respond to my request in a positive way.)

Oops, I'm sorry...you're still human, haha. I remember when you took a sabbatical from this site. I was glad for your return, but my laziness sometimes prohibits me from reading your very long but informative posts. You're super aware of your scriptures, that's for sure! Wish we could both be off "limited", to give rep points. I bet I can count on one hand how many are on "limited". Now enough with me, we both don't have that many posts! ETA: Or just edit the post above...don't want you to use up your posts. Edited May 19, 2014 by Tacenda

[teddyaware]

Oops, I'm sorry...you're still human, haha.  I remember when you took a sabbatical from this site.  I was glad for your return, but my laziness sometimes prohibits me from reading your very long but informative posts.  You're super aware of your scriptures, that's for sure!  Wish we could both be off "limited", to give rep points.  I bet I can count on one hand how many are on "limited".   Now enough with me, we both don't have that many posts! 

Thanks for the kind words. It's true I'm a near fanatical proponent of accuracy and precision in language writing and that's why I wish I knew how to punctuate properly. That's also the reason why my posts can be kind of long -- I want to be sure I've securely "hammered down" enough rhetorical "nails" to fully establish and secure the points I'm trying to make.

Thanks again for your brilliant insight, as believe it will prove to be a genuine life-changer for me. I will never view the former members who habituate this board, like forlorn ghosts, in the same way again. In fact, I believe I will feel much more compassion for these folks. Enough for now because I have only 6 more posts left till 11:04 PM! All the best!

Edited May 19, 2014 by teddyaware

[ERayR]

Palerider you're spot on! Maybe the ones that leave it alone are those that wanted a change of lifestyle or in some people's opinion, want to sin. Usually called a Jackmormon. I'd venture to say the ones that can't leave it alone are the ones that were once fully invested in it.

 

Hence they have felt the spirit repeatedly just as Elder Pace has described.  It is hard to miss what you never really had but once one has repeatedly had that experience it is indeed missed.

[Anteojito]

Given the hatred some apostates demonstrate not only against the church, but also against its members, I'd say Elder Pace is spot on.

 

Interestingly enough, when someone embraces the restored gospel, they often are filled with the peace that comes from making the covenants. It's why they typically don't denigrate what they have left behind.

 

On the other hand, the fruits of believing that anti-Mormon tripe is some kind of "truth" exposing the church as some kind of "flim-flam" are often the kind of hatred described in the OP. It's evidence of the rejection of the testimony once received.

 

I suspect that those who leave the church but who do not fight against it often still retain at least some vestiges of their spiritual testimonies that hold that hatred at bay. Only when the testimony is rejected do we tend to see the kind of stuff true apostates demonstrate.

I left the church a few years ago. I had my name removed and the whole bit. I believe the church is a "flim-flam", but I most definitely do not hate the church or its members. I know a lot of ex-Mormons and I don't know anyone who hates the church or the members. Don't confuse criticism or even snide comments as hate. I may have been bitter for a time (I gave up my family to join the church all those years ago), but that has long past.

 

Why have I not left the church alone since I have left it? For my part anyway it is because I was so vested in the church for so many years that it is taking me awhile to completely let go. I believe Joseph Smith was a fake and a fraud (I am not sure about his motives though) but I still find the church to be fascinating.   I am sure that the time will come when I will stop coming to theses boards and just put that part of my life behind me.

 

Maybe it makes you feel better to think that those who leave the church are full of bitterness and hatred, but I have not found that to be true with myself or those that I know that have left the church.

[Buzzard]

I left the church a few years ago. I had my name removed and the whole bit. I believe the church is a "flim-flam", but I most definitely do not hate the church or its members. I know a lot of ex-Mormons and I don't know anyone who hates the church or the members. Don't confuse criticism or even snide comments as hate. I may have been bitter for a time (I gave up my family to join the church all those years ago), but that has long past.

 

Why have I not left the church alone since I have left it? For my part anyway it is because I was so vested in the church for so many years that it is taking me awhile to completely let go. I believe Joseph Smith was a fake and a fraud (I am not sure about his motives though) but I still find the church to be fascinating.   I am sure that the time will come when I will stop coming to theses boards and just put that part of my life behind me.

 

Maybe it makes you feel better to think that those who leave the church are full of bitterness and hatred, but I have not found that to be true with myself or those that I know that have left the church.

It's not just bitterness. For a lot of ex's, it's an obsession. 

A few years ago, I tried my hand at selling insurance for a living. Things were going well until the company I was repping decided they weren't making enough money, and raised rates twice in six months. My close rate went from 50% to 10%, my business collapsed, and I lost a lot of money.

While I was selling their product, I was an advocate for this company, it's products, and the way it did business. Insurance companies, both rightly and wrongly, take a lot of heat, but I was happy to rebut what the critics said. 

And since I worked full time for them, I was spending more time selling insurance than I ever did in church. My days were full of sales and service appointments. And then suddenly, I was done. No more sales, no more commission checks, and no need to respond to this companies critics. I found another job and moved on with my life. Working for that company had cost me thousands of dollars, but griping about it wasn't going to bring that money back, so what was the point?

That is what we mean by those who leave but can't leave it alone. What will their griping change? Nothing, Nothing for them, nothing for their families who have to listen to their harangues, and certainly nothing for the church.

[Anteojito]

It's not just bitterness. For a lot of ex's, it's an obsession. 

A few years ago, I tried my hand at selling insurance for a living. Things were going well until the company I was repping decided they weren't making enough money, and raised rates twice in six months. My close rate went from 50% to 10%, my business collapsed, and I lost a lot of money.

While I was selling their product, I was an advocate for this company, it's products, and the way it did business. Insurance companies, both rightly and wrongly, take a lot of heat, but I was happy to rebut what the critics said. 

And since I worked full time for them, I was spending more time selling insurance than I ever did in church. My days were full of sales and service appointments. And then suddenly, I was done. No more sales, no more commission checks, and no need to respond to this companies critics. I found another job and moved on with my life. Working for that company had cost me thousands of dollars, but griping about it wasn't going to bring that money back, so what was the point?

That is what we mean by those who leave but can't leave it alone. What will their griping change? Nothing, Nothing for them, nothing for their families who have to listen to their harangues, and certainly nothing for the church.

I don't think that a job and a region are really the same thing. I alienated my family when I joined the church, but I did it because I thought it was the one true church and that one day my family would be grateful. I lost 30 years of being close with my family, something I can never get back. So when I found out that the church is not what it claimed to be, yeah I was (am?) bitter, but I never hated the church or the members. I guess I could hate church leadership if I thought that they knew the church was not true and were only in it for whatever they could get for themselves. I don't feel that way.

[Buzzard]

I don't think that a job and a region are really the same thing. I alienated my family when I joined the church, but I did it because I thought it was the one true church and that one day my family would be grateful. I lost 30 years of being close with my family, something I can never get back. So when I found out that the church is not what it claimed to be, yeah I was (am?) bitter, but I never hated the church or the members. I guess I could hate church leadership if I thought that they knew the church was not true and were only in it for whatever they could get for themselves. I don't feel that way.

They are not the same thing, but more similar than you might think. One works at his job many more hours than he spends in church callings. In many industries, you are selling the name and reputation of the company, almost like you have a testimony of them. Not a spiritual one, obviously. And if you are terminated, or the company falls short of your expectations, or like me, ends up costing you a lot of money, there is a temptation to turn on the organization. And that is what many, not all, but many ex-LDS do. I guess they feel betrayed, and cannot move on with their lives, but must tell everyone they meet, even digitally, how horrible this organization that they used to defend turned out to be. 

Luckily for me, I am utterly convinced beyond any doubt that the BOM is what Joseph said it is. And once the BOM is established as coming from God, the rest just falls into place. 

[Palerider]

I left the church a few years ago. I had my name removed and the whole bit. I believe the church is a "flim-flam", but I most definitely do not hate the church or its members. I know a lot of ex-Mormons and I don't know anyone who hates the church or the members. Don't confuse criticism or even snide comments as hate. I may have been bitter for a time (I gave up my family to join the church all those years ago), but that has long past.

 

Why have I not left the church alone since I have left it? For my part anyway it is because I was so vested in the church for so many years that it is taking me awhile to completely let go. I believe Joseph Smith was a fake and a fraud (I am not sure about his motives though) but I still find the church to be fascinating.   I am sure that the time will come when I will stop coming to theses boards and just put that part of my life behind me.

 

Maybe it makes you feel better to think that those who leave the church are full of bitterness and hatred, but I have not found that to be true with myself or those that I know that have left the church.

 

 

Couldn't have put this better myself.

[thatjimguy]

I have seen hundreds of converts excitedly tell others about what they have found. I have never once -- not even as a missionary -- heard a convert to 'Mormonism' seek to tear down, disparage, or warn against his previous faith, and I have known converts from almost every imagineable branch of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, agnosticism, and atheism.

 

 

Happens all the time here in Erie, PA. A lot of converts were once brough up catholic here. I always hear comparisions to how ours feels right as compared to the former.

[Anteojito]

They are not the same thing, but more similar than you might think. One works at his job many more hours than he spends in church callings. In many industries, you are selling the name and reputation of the company, almost like you have a testimony of them. Not a spiritual one, obviously. And if you are terminated, or the company falls short of your expectations, or like me, ends up costing you a lot of money, there is a temptation to turn on the organization. And that is what many, not all, but many ex-LDS do. I guess they feel betrayed, and cannot move on with their lives, but must tell everyone they meet, even digitally, how horrible this organization that they used to defend turned out to be. 

Luckily for me, I am utterly convinced beyond any doubt that the BOM is what Joseph said it is. And once the BOM is established as coming from God, the rest just falls into place. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I do agree with you that the BOM is the key to it all. I believe that if the BOM were true and all the bad stuff that is out there about Joseph Smith and the other Leaders of the Church were true, the church could still be true. BUT, as you state that you are utterly convinced beyond any doubt that the BOM is what Joseph said it is, I am equally convinced that it is not.

[jwhitlock]

I left the church a few years ago. I had my name removed and the whole bit. I believe the church is a "flim-flam", but I most definitely do not hate the church or its members. I know a lot of ex-Mormons and I don't know anyone who hates the church or the members. Don't confuse criticism or even snide comments as hate. I may have been bitter for a time (I gave up my family to join the church all those years ago), but that has long past.

 

Why have I not left the church alone since I have left it? For my part anyway it is because I was so vested in the church for so many years that it is taking me awhile to completely let go. I believe Joseph Smith was a fake and a fraud (I am not sure about his motives though) but I still find the church to be fascinating.   I am sure that the time will come when I will stop coming to theses boards and just put that part of my life behind me.

 

Maybe it makes you feel better to think that those who leave the church are full of bitterness and hatred, but I have not found that to be true with myself or those that I know that have left the church.

 

A careful reading of my post would reveal that I didn't characterize all who leave the church as hating it.

 

I know a number of ex-Mormons who clearly hate the church and its members. I know others who don't.  These aren't people just criticizing or making snide comments; they hate us. Aside from that, I'm not sure I accept your analysis of those ex-Mormons you know. Snide comments are clearly a sign of disrespect, and disrespect is a close relative of outright hatred, so there is often a certain level of antipathy that goes with snide comments and criticism.

 

Frankly, I don't believe it when you say you know a lot of ex-Mormons and don't know of any who hate the church. It's simply statistically improbable, given the experiences many of the rest of us have had with some members who leave.

 

Otherwise, your "maybe it makes you [me] feel better to think.." comment is inaccurate in that I clearly didn't stereotype all who leave the church in any particular manner - just some. For you to infer with your comments that no ex-Mormons hate the church or its members is simply indefensible. There are some out there and they do hate us.

 

Critics of the church love to accuse faithful members of trying to stereotype those who leave the church. You tried to do it here with me; it is a false accusation and belies the weakness of your own claim that no ex-Mormons are really "haters".

[jwhitlock]

Couldn't have put this better myself.

 

It certainly is consistent with your love of inaccuracy when it comes to criticizing the church - and its members.

[Anteojito]

A careful reading of my post would reveal that I didn't characterize all who leave the church as hating it.

 

I know a number of ex-Mormons who clearly hate the church and its members. I know others who don't.  These aren't people just criticizing or making snide comments; they hate us. Aside from that, I'm not sure I accept your analysis of those ex-Mormons you know. Snide comments are clearly a sign of disrespect, and disrespect is a close relative of outright hatred, so there is often a certain level of antipathy that goes with snide comments and criticism.

 

Frankly, I don't believe it when you say you know a lot of ex-Mormons and don't know of any who hate the church. It's simply statistically improbable, given the experiences many of the rest of us have had with some members who leave.

 

Otherwise, your "maybe it makes you [me] feel better to think.." comment is inaccurate in that I clearly didn't stereotype all who leave the church in any particular manner - just some. For you to infer with your comments that no ex-Mormons hate the church or its members is simply indefensible. There are some out there and they do hate us.

 

Critics of the church love to accuse faithful members of trying to stereotype those who leave the church. You tried to do it here with me; it is a false accusation and belies the weakness of your own claim that no ex-Mormons are really "haters".

I did not say that you said that all those who leave the church hate it. I said that I left the church and I don't hate it. I don't know anybody who left the church that says they hate the church. If you don't believe me that is your problem. I stand by everything I said. I did not stereotype you at all. I said that "maybe" it makes you feel better to think..That is not a stereotype, it is a simple comment. 

[Calm]

Not that I recommend it but if you venture on to the Recovery From Mormonism board you will be able to find quite a number of people who state they hate the Church and/or members.

I think it is an extreme position that few in terms of percentage of those who leave hold, but I also believe that the Internet allows people to feel safe and welcomed in saying it so likely that percentage is growing.