Leave It, But Can't Leave It Alone

[Palerider]

But isn't this like saying if you go to a bar you find quite a number of people who are inebriated?  And because they are among a bunch of people who like being drunk they feel comfortable in saying they love drinking?

 

Of course you're going to raise your percentages of running into these kinds of characters in a place like that.

 

What you and others here need to realize is that there is also a "truth lovers club" and they get pretty passionate about people who claim to be telling them the truth and then turn out to be not so truthful at all. And then on top of it when they call these people on the carpet for telling tall tales they get accused of being disloyal, sinful, mentally deficient, obsessed, of never having had "true" testimonies etc. etc......the blame the victim tactic.

 

Like the cheating husband who blames his infidelity on his wife's inability to make him as happy as he should be.

 

In so doing you further aggravate an already deteriorating relationship and then you wonder why some of these people end up despising you.

 

Yeah.....it's a real mystery to me why some people would feel animosity towards the church and some of it's pompous, arrogant, zealot members.

 

I'm just glad for those members who I know that aren't that way. They are the ones that I still invite over for dinner on Sundays and we enjoy each others company and generally have an enjoyable time. They're great people that I'm glad to associate with.  

[Calm]

But isn't this like saying if you go to a bar you find quite a number of people who are inebriated? And because they are among a bunch of people who like being drunk they feel comfortable in saying they love drinking?.

Considering I stated this "I think it is an extreme position that few in terms of percentage of those who leave hold" don't really see what your issue is.

Of course people of like minds hang out together and reinforce each others' positions. Just making the observation the Internet makes this much easier to happen.

Edited May 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Sister Hunter/Elder Hunter]

I've been in the anti-Mormon world trying to talk some sense into them for about 12 years now. I know every single one of them some of them personally. I have never seen more group of blind, miserable, angry, sad people in my life. I go buy kittywaymo you can Google my post, and their links to my various webpages in the Exmo world. One of my posts in which I entitled "leave the church, not leave it alone" spread like wildfire in the X Mormon community. Sparking debate as to whether some of my points about the stereo typical traits are true. Quite a few anti-Mormon, surprisingly agreed that a lot of the traits that I have seen over the years are true.

I am now in communication with "new name Noah" the dude that put at the old temple film stuff on YouTube etc. his real name is Mike Norton I found the following information I'll have to post this in two parts

Anti-Mormon new name Noah : a.k.a. Mike Norton

Layton, Utah

[Sister Hunter/Elder Hunter]

Reviewer: ottoboy - - July 27, 2013
Subject: Deleting account for abuse and threats
Can the following post please be deleted. It is contains address of another poster which is meant to induce violence. Mormons...what a group. I would agree with some ethical questions of posting video if they weren't so right wing and control Utah politics, economics, law and educational systems.
Reviewer: tgraham - - October 24, 2012
Subject: Mike Norton aka NewNameNoah aka Nortinski
I often wonder about someone who has so many alias. I am NOT affiliated with any religion, but do feel what Mike Norton has done is disgusting. Mike Norton who resides as [deleted] who's telephone # is [deleted] seems to have a real knack for lying and be deceitful. Wether this video is authentic or not, I feel it's nothing but a guy trying to feel his worth as a man.

 

What is the purpose of posting a person's phone number and address here?  It's not allowed.

[Sister Hunter/Elder Hunter]

The above cut paste was to review I saw on another site of his shenanigans in the temple

[frank_jessop]

The above cut paste was to review I saw on another site of his shenanigans in the temple

And none of it offered anything of value to the discussion. A question though, are you willing to assume the risk and liability, on the chance that you have posted personal information about the wrong person?

[Calm]

In fact Hunter, you likely need to remove the information as it is a board violation, I believe. If he has posted his ow n information that may not be a problem, but if someone else has that could be.

I don't see any purpose posting it here anyway. What would you want us to do with it?

There have been other threads about his efforts. If you do a search on his alias you can find them.

Edited May 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

But isn't this like saying if you go to a bar you find quite a number of people who are inebriated?  And because they are among a bunch of people who like being drunk they feel comfortable in saying they love drinking?

 

Of course you're going to raise your percentages of running into these kinds of characters in a place like that.

 

What you and others here need to realize is that there is also a "truth lovers club" and they get pretty passionate about people who claim to be telling them the truth and then turn out to be not so truthful at all. And then on top of it when they call these people on the carpet for telling tall tales they get accused of being disloyal, sinful, mentally deficient, obsessed, of never having had "true" testimonies etc. etc......the blame the victim tactic.

 

Like the cheating husband who blames his infidelity on his wife's inability to make him as happy as he should be.

 

In so doing you further aggravate an already deteriorating relationship and then you wonder why some of these people end up despising you.

 

Yeah.....it's a real mystery to me why some people would feel animosity towards the church and some of it's pompous, arrogant, zealot members.

 

I'm just glad for those members who I know that aren't that way. They are the ones that I still invite over for dinner on Sundays and we enjoy each others company and generally have an enjoyable time. They're great people that I'm glad to associate with.  

 

I understand your position and can empathize.  I think many leaders raised expectations abnormally and inappropriately high.  Anyone can make their own assumptions as to why they might have done so, but all of us are left the consequences of their words and actions.  

 

The Church's leadership has never gone so far as to admit wronging or error for everything; however, I acknowledge that they have admitted some things - BY and Adam/God theory for one - but a host of other things have been ignored.  Some cannot let it go and move on, but all those who learn about it are affected in one degree of another.  

 

At the end of the day we just try to do our best with the tools we have been given and try to focus on the positive. 

[jwhitlock]

I did not say that you said that all those who leave the church hate it. I said that I left the church and I don't hate it. I don't know anybody who left the church that says they hate the church. If you don't believe me that is your problem. I stand by everything I said. I did not stereotype you at all. I said that "maybe" it makes you feel better to think..That is not a stereotype, it is a simple comment. 

 

Let me quote what you actually wrote:

 

"Maybe it makes you feel better to think that those who leave the church are full of bitterness and hatred,"

 

You sure make it sound like I categorize "those who leave the church" as being full of bitterness and hatred. I was careful to specify "some", but you conveniently left that out.

 

We call that stereotyping. It's not what I did, but it's what you wrote.

 

It's interesting that some who leave want to do their own stereotyping of those who remain. We're accused, as you did here, of ascribing common characteristics to "all" those who leave the church, as if that "makes us feel better". I find that to be a rather condescending attitude on your part. The fact remains that there are some who leave the church who clearly hate it and its members. Many of us know some of those people. When you come here and tell us that you know lots of ex-Mormons, and not one of them hates the church or its members, either its an indication that you really don't know that many, or that you are willing to turn a blind eye towards what is really going on. Certainly "criticism and snide comments", which you acknowledged, indicate at a minimum a dislike for the church and its members, if not outright hatred.

 

But hey - feel free to believe what you want. Just don't expect to post stereotypes of your own here and expect them to go unchallenged.

[sethpayne]

Glenn L. Pace, then a member of the LDS Presiding Bishopric, said:

 

"You can leave the Church, but you can’t leave it alone. The basic reason for this is simple. Once someone has received a witness of the Spirit and accepted it, he leaves neutral ground. One loses his testimony only by listening to the promptings of the evil one, and Satan’s goal is not complete when a person leaves the Church, but when he comes out in open rebellion against it."  April 1989, LDS Conference Address, online at https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/04/follow-the-prophet?lang=eng .

 

Does this notion comport with the view of philosopher Max Scheler, that “an apostate is not a man who once in his life radically changes his deepest religious, political, legal, or philosophical convictions – even when this change is not continuous, but involves  sudden rupture.  Even after his conversion, the true ‘apostate’ is not primarily committed to the positive contents of his new belief and to the realization of its aims.  He is motivated by the struggle against the old belief and lives only for its negation.  The apostate does not affirm his new convictions for their own sake, he is engaged in a continuous chain of acts of revenge against his own spiritual past.  In reality, he remains captive of this past, and the new faith is merely a handy frame of reference for negating and rejecting the old.”  Scheler, Ressentiment, ed. L. Coser, trans. W. Holdheim (NY: Schocken Books, 1972), 66-67, cited in James Breech, Jesus and Postmodernism (Augsburg Fortress, 1989), 83 n. 40. 

 

Is this merely an affectation, or is it a more serious psychological disorder? Indeed, is it more characteristic of ex-Mormons than of ex-Christians of other sorts?  If so, why?

 

 

The level of animosity (or interest, really) expressed towards a former group association is usually a function of 2 things.  1) The social positioning of the organization and 2) the perception of that positioning by the former member.  Some may see Allegiant organizations differently but for the most part they are perceived as contributing positive social capital to society.

 

If someone leaves the Red Cross, for example, they are unlikely  to express hatred towards it.  This is because the Red Cross is considered an "Allegiant" organization by society-at-large.  Same with mainstream Churches like the Methodists.  Mainstream LDS believers generally perceive the Church as Alllegiant..

 

The LDS Church is generally perceived as "Contestant" because many within society view it with, not suspicion, but as an interest-seeking organization.  Similar to how they would see a business.  Not necessarily bad.  Not necessarily good.  Contestant orgs produce folks who may complain about some aspects but who generally don't express hatred.

 

The LDS Church is also viewed as "Subversive" by some; usually hard-core right-wing Christians and former LDS members.  I've argued elsewhere that the LDS Church's social positioning is certainly unique in that it simultaneously occupies all three positions due to the wide range of perceptions of the Church.

 

Anyway, it is those who view the Church as Subversive who are "obsessed" with the Church even after they leave.  This is because they feel it to be their duty to warn others of the "true nature" of the Church.  JW, Scientologists, and even some EV Churches see the same things that we do.  This is an expected social reaction.

 

Bromley, David G. "The Social Construction of Contested Exit Roles: Defectors, Whislteblowers and Apostates." Chap. 2 In The Politics of Religious Apostasy: The Role of Apostates in the Transformation of Religious Movements, edited by David G. Bromley, 19-48. Westport, Connecticut

London: Praeger, 1998.

[sethpayne]

Reviewer: ottoboy - - July 27, 2013

Subject: Deleting account for abuse and threats

Can the following post please be deleted. It is contains address of another poster which is meant to induce violence. Mormons...what a group. I would agree with some ethical questions of posting video if they weren't so right wing and control Utah politics, economics, law and educational systems.

Reviewer: tgraham - - October 24, 2012

Subject: Mike Norton aka NewNameNoah aka Nortinski

I often wonder about someone who has so many alias. I am NOT affiliated with any religion, but do feel what Mike Norton has done is disgusting. Mike Norton who resides as [sNIP] seems to have a real knack for lying and be deceitful. Wether this video is authentic or not, I feel it's nothing but a guy trying to feel his worth as a man.

 

I'm not fan of Norton but his personal info should not be posted here.

Edited May 20, 2014 by sethpayne

[Tacenda]

The above cut paste was to review I saw on another site of his shenanigans in the temple

I can't believe you just posted a person's phone and address on here, but I guess it might be in the phone book.

Maybe people like Mike think they have to save the LDS, he may be EV or something, where he thinks we're going to go to you know where. That's the only way I can see a person doing that, and be willing to be open about it. The reason I say that is because he was on Shawn McRaney's show. He must actually think he is saving people. Or he's insane with a capital "I".

Some out there think it's a fraud so they want to warn others, just like any product. But really all religions could be labeled the same, they're are all just beliefs in something. It's ridiculous that they'd attack the LDS though, since they are usually some of the best people and really do live their religion. But maybe they mostly attack those with power, such as the Utah lawmakers and church leaders. Not giving them an excuse though.

I give you credit though, for working so hard on them, that's an almost "Mission Impossible".

ETA: I think people think the church is cult like because they're so afraid to say they don't believe, to family and friends. But maybe it's like that in other churches. But not really because most in other churches aren't told it's the one true church, just the one true God. That might be what people get so riled about. That feeling of being alone and afraid of what they'll think of you when you come out. I read a comment from a gay person that it was harder to come out as a disbeliever in the church, then it was to come out as gay. So there is something to this. I relate, only 2 or 3 people know of my situation besides my husband. So that might be the crux, and where anger comes in to play.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Tacenda

[Palerider]

I understand your position and can empathize.  I think many leaders raised expectations abnormally and inappropriately high.  Anyone can make their own assumptions as to why they might have done so, but all of us are left the consequences of their words and actions.  

 

The Church's leadership has never gone so far as to admit wronging or error for everything; however, I acknowledge that they have admitted some things - BY and Adam/God theory for one - but a host of other things have been ignored.  Some cannot let it go and move on, but all those who learn about it are affected in one degree of another.  

 

At the end of the day we just try to do our best with the tools we have been given and try to focus on the positive. 

 

 

Thank you Stormrider. "A soft answer turneth away wrath."

 

One thing to bear in mind: The first step to solving a problem is admitting that you have one. I feel very sorry for the church in this respect........I had a very good friend who had left the church before I did, that said she thought they were living in "denial". I said there is no such thing as denial........only cowardice. 

[Palerider]

 

The level of animosity (or interest, really) expressed towards a former group association is usually a function of 2 things.  1) The social positioning of the organization and 2) the perception of that positioning by the former member.  Some may see Allegiant organizations differently but for the most part they are perceived as contributing positive social capital to society.

 

If someone leaves the Red Cross, for example, they are unlikely  to express hatred towards it.  This is because the Red Cross is considered an "Allegiant" organization by society-at-large.  Same with mainstream Churches like the Methodists.  Mainstream LDS believers generally perceive the Church as Alllegiant..

 

The LDS Church is generally perceived as "Contestant" because many within society view it with, not suspicion, but as an interest-seeking organization.  Similar to how they would see a business.  Not necessarily bad.  Not necessarily good.  Contestant orgs produce folks who may complain about some aspects but who generally don't express hatred.

 

The LDS Church is also viewed as "Subversive" by some; usually hard-core right-wing Christians and former LDS members.  I've argued elsewhere that the LDS Church's social positioning is certainly unique in that it simultaneously occupies all three positions due to the wide range of perceptions of the Church.

 

Anyway, it is those who view the Church as Subversive who are "obsessed" with the Church even after they leave.  This is because they feel it to be their duty to warn others of the "true nature" of the Church.  JW, Scientologists, and even some EV Churches see the same things that we do.  This is an expected social reaction.

 

Bromley, David G. "The Social Construction of Contested Exit Roles: Defectors, Whislteblowers and Apostates." Chap. 2 In The Politics of Religious Apostasy: The Role of Apostates in the Transformation of Religious Movements, edited by David G. Bromley, 19-48. Westport, Connecticut

London: Praeger, 1998.

 

 

 

Thank you Seth. "Just the facts Ma'am."  Much more light than heat..........

[canard78]

This is an absolutely brilliant insight! If I weren't on "limited" status, I'd give you an enthusiastic rep point! Thank you! I will never again get irritated with those who "can't leave it alone."

 

 

Thanks teddyaware, I'd give you a rep point right back if I could (limited)!  And it's funny we're on opposite sides of the boat, yet maybe we aren't, haha.  I read a post recently that you mentioned your son and his disbelief, it's foggy, but I believe you said that you loved him no matter what, wish I could find it again.  But that humanized you, for me.  Sad that we communicate online, and sometimes forget.   

 

I 'repped' both on your behalf.

 

By the way, Ted, to contact moderators the only way I know of is to write a message like you did and then report the message (using the 'Report') link next to 'MultiQuote.' You'll then be able to write a message in the report which will go to the moderator (along with a link to the original message)... I think...

[Tacenda]

I 'repped' both on your behalf.

By the way, Ted, to contact moderators the only way I know of is to write a message like you did and then report the message (using the 'Report') link next to 'MultiQuote.' You'll then be able to write a message in the report which will go to the moderator (along with a link to the original message)... I think...

Thanks Canard, it sure feels like a sort of jail sometimes, except we don't get a "get out of jail free card " like in Monopoly.

[sethpayne]

Thank you Seth. "Just the facts Ma'am."  Much more light than heat..........

 

 

 

The only reason I happen to be aware of this is because it makes up a major component of my recent "Dialogue" article.  Bromley's work is excellent.

[Anteojito]

Let me quote what you actually wrote:

 

"Maybe it makes you feel better to think that those who leave the church are full of bitterness and hatred,"

 

You sure make it sound like I categorize "those who leave the church" as being full of bitterness and hatred. I was careful to specify "some", but you conveniently left that out.

 

We call that stereotyping. It's not what I did, but it's what you wrote.

 

It's interesting that some who leave want to do their own stereotyping of those who remain. We're accused, as you did here, of ascribing common characteristics to "all" those who leave the church, as if that "makes us feel better". I find that to be a rather condescending attitude on your part. The fact remains that there are some who leave the church who clearly hate it and its members. Many of us know some of those people. When you come here and tell us that you know lots of ex-Mormons, and not one of them hates the church or its members, either its an indication that you really don't know that many, or that you are willing to turn a blind eye towards what is really going on. Certainly "criticism and snide comments", which you acknowledged, indicate at a minimum a dislike for the church and its members, if not outright hatred.

 

But hey - feel free to believe what you want. Just don't expect to post stereotypes of your own here and expect them to go unchallenged.

"Maybe it makes you feel better to think that those who leave the church are full of bitterness and hatred," (my comment)

 

When I said “you” I meant second person singular, not plural. I was making a comment about you personally and not about members of the church generally. I would not call that stereotyping.

 

 

“… When you come here and tell us that you know lots of ex-Mormons, and not one of them hates the church or its members, either it’s an indication that you really don't know that many, or that you are willing to turn a blind eye towards what is really going on.” (your comment)

 

I again state that none of the ex-Mormons that I know have ever said or done anything to indicate that they hate the church or its members.  Are you calling me a liar?

 

“Certainly "criticism and snide comments", which you acknowledged, indicate at a minimum a dislike for the church and its members, if not outright hatred.” (your comment)

 

I couldn’t disagree more. One can clearly criticize people that they care deeply about. My wife and I make snide comments to each other all the time and there is no one in this world I love more.

 

[wenglund]

I think its just human nature.  A similar thing happens when people join the church.  They want to tell everyone about it. 

 

Perhaps.

 

However, I think the motivation for telling is different, if not diametrically so.

 

Converts may wish to tell everyone so that others may share in the new found joy.

 

Whereas, vocal apostates may wish to tell everyone so that others may share in the new found misery.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 20, 2014 by wenglund

[wenglund]

Perhaps.

 

However, I think the motivation for telling is different, if not diametrically so.

 

Converts may wish to tell everyone so that others may share in the new found joy.

 

Whereas, vocal apostates may wish to tell everyone so that others may share in the new found misery.

 

Converts may wish to tell everyone with the intent to edify and progress.

 

Whereas, vocal apostates may wish to tell everyone with the intent to gripe and complain.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 20, 2014 by wenglund

[jwhitlock]

 

"Maybe it makes you feel better to think that those who leave the church are full of bitterness and hatred," (my comment)

 

When I said “you” I meant second person singular, not plural. I was making a comment about you personally and not about members of the church generally. I would not call that stereotyping.

 

 

You continue to miss the point. With your comment, you said that I stereotype all who leave the church that way.  That was simply false and a misrepresentation on your part.

 

 

“… When you come here and tell us that you know lots of ex-Mormons, and not one of them hates the church or its members, either it’s an indication that you really don't know that many, or that you are willing to turn a blind eye towards what is really going on.” (your comment)

 

I again state that none of the ex-Mormons that I know have ever said or done anything to indicate that they hate the church or its members.  Are you calling me a liar?

 

I'm stating that I don't believe you. What was your purpose in making the comment? It was in response to my post about some who leave the church and hate it. It was an argument, on your part, to try and tell us that there aren't any ex-Mormons who hate the church, and that we're just making things up. That is clearly false. Statistically in any large group of ex-Mormons, there is a very high probability that there are going to be some who do hate the church and its members.

 

So I reject your comment as the argument you intended it to be, and I also don't believe that none of the ex-Mormons you know hate the church.

 

“Certainly "criticism and snide comments", which you acknowledged, indicate at a minimum a dislike for the church and its members, if not outright hatred.” (your comment)

 

I couldn’t disagree more. One can clearly criticize people that they care deeply about. My wife and I make snide comments to each other all the time and there is no one in this world I love more.

 

 

Here are a couple of definitions of snide:

 

"Derogatory in a nasty, insinuating manner".

"Maliciously derogatory; supercilious".

 

In addition, criticism can be either constructive or negative. The vast majority of the time, it is negative and not given out of any type of love, but rather in an attempt to hurt or tear down.

 

Since you've already admitted that at least some of the ex-Mormons you know are critical and do make snide remarks, it's further evidence that either you have a flawed perception of what hatred is, or you're being intentionally misleading about your claim that no ex-Mormons hate the church.

 

And I do hope you don't make snide comments to your wife. That's not a particularly nice thing to do.

Edited May 21, 2014 by jwhitlock

[Sister Hunter/Elder Hunter]

I only republished what's all over the Internet but someone else published. Mike Norton doesn't even live there anymore and that isn't a current phone number anyway. I have no desire to stay on the site except that I wanted to come on just to give you that information. I find it extremely offensive as both a person who is Jewish and Mormon that someone takes things that are sacred to me , lies deceitfully records private sacred religious ordinances and puts it all over the Internet.'s

[Sister Hunter/Elder Hunter]

We have so much better things to do with our time so I would love it if you did not send me any more emails or spam and I'm going to resign my membership on your site. Thank you. I just wanted you to know that Mike Norton and people like him are bigots. They are no different to me then a racist. As a Jew I would've called him anti-Semitic . Things that are sacred to people should not be trampled under the feet of other inconsiderate deceitful people. That's why I have no problem giving his real identity. Also I find that many people on these types of sites are very insecure intellectually and spiritually. I would much rather have a dialogue with people that are spiritually sound , psychologically sound and intellectually sound. I wish there were a site kind (fair comes close) where scientists like myself can have intelligent conversation. There is very little intelligence I find on the Internet.

[Calm]

I highly doubt that FairMormon would allow you to post personal addresses and phone numbers either.

If they were out of date why bother? And addresses and phone numbers do nothing to demonstrate the personal beliefs or bigotry of a person.

[Senator]

We have so much better things to do with our time so I would love it if you did not send me any more emails or spam and I'm going to resign my membership on your site. Thank you. I just wanted you to know that Mike Norton and people like him are bigots. They are no different to me then a racist. As a Jew I would've called him anti-Semitic . Things that are sacred to people should not be trampled under the feet of other inconsiderate deceitful people. That's why I have no problem giving his real identity. Also I find that many people on these types of sites are very insecure intellectually and spiritually. I would much rather have a dialogue with people that are spiritually sound , psychologically sound and intellectually sound. I wish there were a site kind (fair comes close) where scientists like myself can have intelligent conversation. There is very little intelligence I find on the Internet.

 

 

It appears you went about it in the wrong way.

 

Being as intelligently sound as you make yourself out to be, one would think you would have know that.....